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Don't know much at all about the 40k background, but it seems to be like the universe is so ancient, the aliens that are "rip-offs" of other races could just have evolved from those races or something.

The Primarchs and the Emperor are not based on Alexander. They are a hodgepodge of Roman, Christian, and other cultures. Lord Solar Mecharius is 40K's Alexander the Great.

Klawz wrote:The Primarchs and the Emperor are not based on Alexander. They are a hodgepodge of Roman, Christian, and other cultures. Lord Solar Mecharius is 40K's Alexander the Great.

No one was disagreeing, those elements were simply mentioned as they were easy to detect.

Shenra wrote:The OP failed to include Daemons in his original assessment..what do you think?

OP has read enough of the horus heresy series to understand that "daemon" is just a word to help conceptualize what the denizens in the warp represent to human beings.

Carlovonsexron wrote:

Shenra wrote:The OP failed to include Daemons in his original assessment..what do you think?

OP has read enough of the horus heresy series to understand that "daemon" is just a word to help conceptualize what the denizens in the warp represent to human beings.

+1

Of course they are just as much a take on other forms of ideas as well, whether they be the demons found in the bible or any other number of fallen creature/angel with "god-like" abilities or powers from a vast number of sources... heck consider another fantasy example, even the orcs from LOTRs were once Elves that had fallen and were twisted by evil, so can be said of the warp daemons.... and look at the inquisitors who hunt them, how many things can you name that they possibly remind you of, even the Gestapo come to mind...albiet a bit extreme but...it fits in certain degrees.. "even those with nothing to hide have something to fear"

BluntmanDC wrote:is there italien dwarf folklore?

Mario.

DickBandit wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:is there italien dwarf folklore?

Mario.

This.

Even if you made the 40k world more "sci fi" you could still claim that there is a rip somewhere...so what if there is a half cybernetic half humanoid computerized race....ooops that's the borg from star trek. What about giant sasquatch looking...oh never mind that's wookies from star wars...how about lizard like chameleon warriors...oh wait that's a rip of predators.

Everything is a rip of something else. Even your space marines are a rip of starship troopers sort of as you point out.

I prefer to think of it more like this. Eldar aren't really elves...they are just slender humanoid spacefarers that reminded the humans of elves so that's what they were named. Orks are nothing like orcs from fantasy...last time I played D and D killing one didn't result in spores making more. They just look something like what ancient humans referred to as orks. Same goes for "denizens of the warp" and so forth. Likely, humans will name them something they resemble that we are already familiar with.

And if 40k is nothing but a futuristic fantasy version...then let's get a Draconic army!!! Come on, what would be cooler than dragons? You could have flying ones, tank like ones, fast attack beastlike ones, and troops would be easy. Not only that, but the models could be ridiculously awesome.

Personally, I find the human chapters pretty boring. The tanks 40000 years in the future look just like the ones in Afghanistan right now for crying out loud! Are you telling me that the tank hasn't been redesigned since then? And all the marines look the same...different ability here, different color scheme there...add a couple historical figures who made a valiant stand and all of a sudden you have a whole new army? There's no comparing daemons to orks to nids to eldar. That's where all the variety is. But I know if I play a Marine or Guard army...there's gonna be tanks...and buff guys with guns...maybe a chaplain or a librarian...and maybe a guy in a mech suit. Yawn. Which chapter did you say you were? Oh nevermind...doesn't matter, you're all the same in different outfits.

You're crazy OP. The myriad of crazy alien races is what makes 40K cool. I wouldn't want just all Humans.

Starship troopers reminds me more of the IG than marines. Its a good day to die...

edit: syntax error.

That's Movie Starship Troopers. The book is more power armoured.

KamikazeCanuck
That's Movie Starship Troopers. The book is more power armoured.

Exactly, power suits with jump jets, flamers, talking bombs, and tactical nuke missile launchers for the sergeants. They are an elite fighting force, not a bunch of raw recruit with flak armor and pop guns. They have psykers too.

Grass4hopper wrote:

KamikazeCanuck
That's Movie Starship Troopers. The book is more power armoured.

Exactly, power suits with jump jets, flamers, talking bombs, and tactical nuke missile launchers for the sergeants. They are an elite fighting force, not a bunch of raw recruit with flak armor and pop guns. They have psykers too.

They're also humans, something Space Marines quite clearly aren't, what with their drooling acid and dozens of superfluous organs (almost as many as they get codices!) and all, and to elaborate on what you said: their powered armor makes Space Marines look like hemophiliac infants.

The only similarities between them are the aesthetics and the fact that both are giant mary sues, though the Starship Trooper marines manage to be tolerable while being so, rather than just flat out ridiculous.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Grass4hopper wrote:

KamikazeCanuck
That's Movie Starship Troopers. The book is more power armoured.

Exactly, power suits with jump jets, flamers, talking bombs, and tactical nuke missile launchers for the sergeants. They are an elite fighting force, not a bunch of raw recruit with flak armor and pop guns. They have psykers too.

They're also humans, something Space Marines quite clearly aren't, what with their drooling acid and dozens of superfluous organs (almost as many as they get codices!) and all, and to elaborate on what you said: their powered armor makes Space Marines look like hemophiliac infants.

The only similarities between them are the aesthetics and the fact that both are giant mary sues, though the Starship Trooper marines manage to be tolerable while being so, rather than just flat out ridiculous.

Can't argue with you there , but IMO they still resemble the SM more that the IG.

You got me thinking that most of the 'Space Marines' in science fiction aren't super modified like 40k SM. Sure some of them have extensive biological modifications to make them taller, stronger, and smarter, but 40k SM seem (fairly) original with their total body overhaul. They're different that Spartan II's - modified humans (Halo), Colonial Marines - plain ol' humans (Aliens), Starship Troopers - plain ol' humans (book), Doom - plain ol' human?, etc.

That's because SF literature is at some level about human relationships, weaknesses, foibles, and the way that people deal with the world and other people.

GW SMs are so extensively modified and perfected as fighting machines, as to be no longer human. They have no relevance or interest in a literary sense. They work as game pieces, but not as characters.

No SF author of any merit would have invented SMs as they are, because they would be crappy and pointless heroes. You might as well write a novel about a platoon of tanks.

How about a species of sentient symbiotics which combine at outwardly primate-like appearance with an internal structure that’s heavily infused with a form of algae. These symbiotics are significantly stronger and more resilient than a human is physically, but it’s the differences in their psychology that distances them the most from their species’ most common rival. Intelligence differs significantly from humans, but is rated much higher or much lower depending on the specifics of the metric used. The species has demonstrated an extreme aptitude for technological innovation but individual members of the species are highly impatient and cooperate poorly with one another, leading to a broad range of effective technological advancement within the species and a very low degree of consistency between any two given pieces of technology the race may field.

The race is highly divisive and is splintered into six major ethnocultures. While these ethnic groups, or clans, appear indistinguishable to humans the species itself is often acutely aware of the physiological differences between these groups, and cooperation between members of different groups is uncommon and usually short-lived. These ethnocultural groups differ noticeably in the values they prize, in their favored method of warfare, in the aesthetics they favor, and in their relationship to other species. One ethnocultural group puts a greater degree of emphasis on their physical strength and their sternness. One ethnocultural group is far more mercantile, and puts greater emphasis on the accumulation of wealth and the ownership of expensive (and technologically advanced) weaponry. A third ethnocultural group is more traditionalistic, religious, nomadic, and isolationist, while another is known for being heavily superstitious, having a high degree of physical modification, and reverse-engineering technology stolen from other species. A fifth group is largely nomadic but far more technologically advanced, heavily favoring vehicle ownership and the ability to conduct an assault rapidly. The sixth group has been historically the most friendly towards humanity (by a small margin) and favors the acquisition of power through subterfuge and backstabbing (this ethnocultural group was at one point the most powerful, but many of its members were attacked by the other groups during a semi-recent conflict, and they have yet to regain their place).

The described ethnocultural groups are not unified factions, although the race is more likely to unite along ethnocultural lines. The basic nation, or tribe, of this species is much smaller, constrained by the species’ lack of effort put forth into large-scale organization and the tendency of individuals to fight amongst themselves. Tribal leadership is primarily based on past performance in combat, the self-confidence of the leader in question, loyalty to higher-ups, and simple age and experience. While civil war is common (some may say near continuous) ideological conflict is far less common, most civil wars being between two leaders who consider themselves to be the most effective at attaining universally desired goals. This form of internal conflict can be deceptive, as once one leader gains the upper hand, or the tribe feels threatened by a common enemy, the tribe quickly rallies around one leader, and makes for a surprisingly united front.

Within a tribe there are several major (non-leadership) castes that society is formed of. At least two of these, the medical/surgical and mechanical/engineering castes are mostly determined genetically. There is evidence that members of these castes have an innate sense of fundamental mechanical principles or an innate sense of their species physiological systems, although they are capable of improvement in their fields and they differ widely in their levels of skill. Other castes include a form of priest, manufacturers of alcohol, those responsible for enslaving other species (see below) and a type of psyker (who also acts as a navigator when making voyages by space).

The species in question has a very short expected life span, although it does not appear to physically age in the same way that humans do. Reproduction occurs via the symbiotic algae, which contains all of the race’s genetic material. Reproduction is asexual, and occurs through the continuous releasing of spores throughout the individual’s lifespan (with many being released upon death, especially if the death is physically traumatic). Spores may gestate into full grown members of the species, or into one of several other species which are symbiotic with the same form of algae. These smaller species are fully integrated with the society of their patron species, and serve as forms of livestock, trained animals, menial labor, and occasionally war machines. While some of these species appear to be intelligent, they have no apparent desire to make significant decisions for themselves or become independent from their patrons. Psychological evaluation of these creates is ongoing. The dominant species itself emerges from a form of cocoon that grows (best) in damp, shady areas. When this species emerges from its cocoon it is already mostly grown, and near immediately gains the ability to walk, speak, and use basic tools. By about a week they are equivalent to a human adult in most capabilities.

Space travel is within the capability of any tribe which has advanced to a certain size, and doesn’t appear to require prior experience with space travel or long periods of development into the field, which is further evidence for the theory that the engineering caste of the species has an instinctual understanding of mechanical principles and the possibility of travel through the immaterium. Navigation and communication through warpspace are done by the psyker caste, although the species tends to be rather poor in navigatory skills, and fleets of ships crewed by the species maintain the relative tendency towards discoordination common to the race. Interactions with other space-faring species usually end in war.

Relations with humanity have been overwhelmingly negative. Due to their method of reproduction they have a diminished sense of self-preservation, and a diminished sense of importance with regards to long-term planning, which coupled with a very martial society (for all ethnocultures) and in many cases delusions of grandeur among their leadership leads to frequent attacks against human planets, even when such attacks have no long-term benefit for their tribe. The species is most dangerous, however, when it engages in a form of migratory holy war. This attack is generally led by a single individual, but is led more for the sake of the expansion and instinctive desire to wage war than it is for the aspirations of any individual. While usually unsuccessful at destroying the designated enemy or at carving out an intergalactic empire, these holy wars achieve their main purpose, which is to spread the species to new worlds and to destabilize those in the galaxy (such as humanity) who would curtail their activities. On occasion the species has been helpful to humanity, mostly through waging war on our other enemies, and through a small amount of trade, but these benefits have been small compared to the costs they’ve incurred on us.

------------------------------------------------------

That, to me, is actually a pretty damn good alien race, and it seems far less of a cliched than the Tau or Tyranids. They actually manage to have a visible alien mindset, which is something that sci-fi tends to fail at hard (and 40k usually tends to fail at with regards to the Eldar, in my opinion). Actually, I think this is an advantage of the relationship to the fantasy genre; in my experience fantasy often differentiates their races better from a cultural and psychological standpoint than sci-fi does, because sci-fi writers become too distracted by technological and physiological differentiation.

Grass4hopper wrote:Can't argue with you there , but IMO they still resemble the SM more that the IG.

True enough, though the parts where they're not in their armor are more IG-like.

And the soldiers from Aliens are definitely more IG than SM, being outfitted in nothing more than light body armor with a handful of special weapons at their disposal. They're pretty similar to the "Yeah, those are totally Imperial Guard" marines from the Starship Troopers movie when it comes down to it.

I agree with you. i was just saying that 40k SM are radically different from any of the 'Space Marines' I'm personally familiar with in the various Sci Fi media. Obviously 40k is inspired by older Sci Fi, like almost every other Sci Fi, but IMO they're taken general concepts and made them unique.

If we're going down the whole "40k resembles Fantasy too much" direction of thought, then you might as well scrap Psykers and the warp too...

For me, at least, the main appeal of 40k is its seamless merger of the two distinct genres of fantasy and sci-fi.

I say that these races are needed because they are apart of the story. And I play Orks,so that's why I dont like you. Every race is needed,or else,It just ain't 40k!

@orkeosaurus

How long did it take you write that?! Anyways as you have pointed out there is more to each alien race than meets the eye. Tau and Tyranid too.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:That's Movie Starship Troopers. The book is more power armoured.

Thanks for the correction. Will need to get a copy of this book after I finish Eisenhorn.

to the OP i think that is stupid to say that all of the other races are just rip offs of other things were as most things are in the real world. Do you know how many thing ripped off movies like Star wars and James Bond or the book the Hobbit. All cop movies and westerns are basicly the same because of that reason. I think that the whole consept of the IoM being really really good is silly. In real life the IoM would stand a chance against half of the thing in th 40k Universe.

Kilkrazy wrote:...
GW SMs are so extensively modified and perfected as fighting machines, as to be no longer human. They have no relevance or interest in a literary sense. They work as game pieces, but not as characters.

No SF author of any merit would have invented SMs as they are, because they would be crappy and pointless heroes. You might as well write a novel about a platoon of tanks.

I disagree, afterall we play a game that someone who can be called a sci-fi author, even if he was only writting a game, it is a sci-fi game, and he included it, and BL has tons of stories about the marines and people apparently read the. Of course there are plenty of books that are soley about tanks as well and people read those too....so I don't see how this helps your point.

Oh, and chaos would be scrapped too, since the chaos magics and the 8 pointed star was around before GW's creation.

I think Orkeosaurus wins this thread.

dalsiandon wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:...
GW SMs are so extensively modified and perfected as fighting machines, as to be no longer human. They have no relevance or interest in a literary sense. They work as game pieces, but not as characters.

No SF author of any merit would have invented SMs as they are, because they would be crappy and pointless heroes. You might as well write a novel about a platoon of tanks.

I disagree, afterall we play a game that someone who can be called a sci-fi author, even if he was only writting a game, it is a sci-fi game, and he included it, and BL has tons of stories about the marines and people apparently read the. Of course there are plenty of books that are soley about tanks as well and people read those too....so I don't see how this helps your point.

I'm still right, though.

No SF author of any merit

Are 10% of SF books solely about tanks? What counts as plenty? Are the books about tanks devoid of human emotion, etc?

That's exactly how that little known event called The Horus Heresy started iirc. A clash of non-pesonalities with a lack of ambition and emotion feeding the Chaos Gods.

@OP

So, according to you, everyoe should only play Space Marines?

1: That would be very boring
2: If you want something that is completely original and not at all inspired by something else, you'll be dissapointed by just about everything in life, from music, to TV, to movies and video games.... Everything.