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Carlovonsexron wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

not really seeing as 50% of it is directly taken from human historical, religious and cultural groups, 40% is taken from other works of science fiction (dune), with 10% true originality (even the tech priest of mars are influenced by scientism, a religion in the foundation series by Isaac Asimov)

I think those proportions are pretty substantially unbased on anything but opinion. I wont hazard with percentages, because I'd just be making them up, but the entire idea of the horus heresy splitting the galaxy that would be indisputably human dominated if not for that, the primarchs, the Astartes legions, (and the dividing up up into Astartes chapters post heresy), galactic inquisition based around ACTUAL deamon hunting rather then just solely for rooting out political dissidents, ect...

Perhaps these all do pop up prior to GW, but off the top of my head I certainly cant place them in any other fiction - and those are some of the primary pillars around which the rest of the fluff is based upon.

the horus heresy is basically the fall of the roman empire

Not even close to being the fall of the Roman Empire.

The Horus Heresy is a play off of the Fall of Lucifer in the Bible (forgive me, I don't know which part, probably Genesis) The Primarchs are depicted as the Emperor's angels, and Lucifer used to be God's Chosen.

Also, the DE are not minuscule. They have a larger population than all the craftworlds, and could probably take down a race like the Tau if they banded together and wanted to.

Shakespeare once said that nothing anyone could say would be original. It's all been done before. Have you seen Starship Troopers? That's the Imperial Guard and the Tyranids right there. Have you seen Dune? The Imperial Palace was influenced by THEIR OWN Imperial Palace, and the commissars/lords were based on the aesthetic of the Emperor.

can a mod lock this flame thread please?

this is worse than the IG rapeing eldar thread






*ducks

crazypsyko666 wrote:Shakespeare once said that nothing anyone could say would be original. It's all been done before. Have you seen Starship Troopers? That's the Imperial Guard and the Tyranids right there. Have you seen Dune? The Imperial Palace was influenced by THEIR OWN Imperial Palace, and the commissars/lords were based on the aesthetic of the Emperor.

God forbid people be influenced and inspired by the works of others. Oh the humanity!

bigmek35 wrote:can a mod lock this flame thread please?

this is worse than the IG rapeing eldar thread






*ducks

I have to disagree. It's started to become better. If people would read the whole thread instead of making a quick BS assumption, based of the first post and the title, maybe more would be accomplished. Mods, please continue to let the thread go, but be diligent in your duties (as you always are!).

To the OP, I admit that when I first started, I agreed with your opinion. Everything is something I can quickly and easily find in other Sci-Fi/Fantasy. From Starcraft - Eldar/DE (Templar/Dark Templar), Tyranids (Zerg), Orks (Orcs), etc. It was a running joke for me, referring to my DE's player army as the "Dark Templar", and asking if 'Zeratul" (Vect) was gonna show up this game. I worried if I had my detector units to spot the permanently invisible Templars.

But it passed. Yeah, maybe Eldar are very similar to Elves in space. But I read their fluff. Every word - from the big early fluff section, to each unit's individual entry, to small sidebars here and there. I fell in love with it. Now I don't think of Eldar as Elves in space - I think of them as Eldar. DE are DE, not Dark Templars. I give my soldiers' lives for the Craftworld - not Auir (High Templar homeworld).

True, the IG does have some of the best fluff. I also really liked their fluff first time I read it (prompted me to get IG, along with a few other reasons). Marines have good fluff, and I liked Tau a ton (my first race when I first started). The idea of an entire race selflessly giving of themselves to aid their fellow Tau, under the watchful and honest eye of the Ethereals - who only wish the best for the Tau (in my opinion). The different castes give of themselves in their prescribed role, and they advance pragmatically - advancing technology, open to new ideas, and willing to adapt to survive.

You don't like the fact that you can relate them to other things in fantasy to easily (as opposed to sci-fi, if I understand). That's fine. You're entitled to your opinion, and yours is no more right or wrong than mine. It's an interesting point and definitely a new one for me.

I mentioned Eldar, my new (permanent) race. Just to say, the Orcs I kill in Dungeons and Dragons with Aliza Cornet, my college-trained witch seeking revenge against the man who killed her family, are very different from the Orks I kill with my Striking Scorpions after tearing them to shreds with Dire Avengers.

EDIT: Just to confirm, I'm male. I just play a woman in D&D. Just saying.

Amaya wrote:

crazypsyko666 wrote:Shakespeare once said that nothing anyone could say would be original. It's all been done before. Have you seen Starship Troopers? That's the Imperial Guard and the Tyranids right there. Have you seen Dune? The Imperial Palace was influenced by THEIR OWN Imperial Palace, and the commissars/lords were based on the aesthetic of the Emperor.

God forbid people be influenced and inspired by the works of others. Oh the humanity!

I know, right? Who knows, David Jaffe may just make a game about Greek mythology. OR, we might get another Space Marines update. *GASP*.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheRedArmy wrote:

bigmek35 wrote:can a mod lock this flame thread please?

this is worse than the IG rapeing eldar thread






*ducks

I have to disagree. It's started to become better. If people would read the whole thread instead of making a quick BS assumption, based of the first post and the title, maybe more would be accomplished. Mods, please continue to let the thread go, but be diligent in your duties (as you always are!).

To the OP, I admit that when I first started, I agreed with your opinion. Everything is something I can quickly and easily find in other Sci-Fi/Fantasy. From Starcraft - Eldar/DE (Templar/Dark Templar), Tyranids (Zerg), Orks (Orcs), etc. It was a running joke for me, referring to my DE's player army as the "Dark Templar", and asking if 'Zeratul" (Vect) was gonna show up this game. I worried if I had my detector units to spot the permanently invisible Templars.

But it passed. Yeah, maybe Eldar are very similar to Elves in space. But I read their fluff. Every word - from the big early fluff section, to each unit's individual entry, to small sidebars here and there. I fell in love with it. Now I don't think of Eldar as Elves in space - I think of them as Eldar. DE are DE, not Dark Templars. I give my soldiers' lives for the Craftworld - not Auir (High Templar homeworld).

True, the IG does have some of the best fluff. I also really liked their fluff first time I read it (prompted me to get IG, along with a few other reasons). Marines have good fluff, and I liked Tau a ton (my first race when I first started). The idea of an entire race selflessly giving of themselves to aid their fellow Tau, under the watchful and honest eye of the Ethereals - who only wish the best for the Tau (in my opinion). The different castes give of themselves in their prescribed role, and they advance pragmatically - advancing technology, open to new ideas, and willing to adapt to survive.

You don't like the fact that you can relate them to other things in fantasy to easily (as opposed to sci-fi, if I understand). That's fine. You're entitled to your opinion, and yours is no more right or wrong than mine. It's an interesting point and definitely a new one for me.

I mentioned Eldar, my new (permanent) race. Just to say, the Orcs I kill in Dungeons and Dragons with Aliza Cornet, my college-trained witch seeking revenge against the man who killed her family, are very different from the Orks I kill with my Striking Scorpions after tearing them to shreds with Dire Avengers.

EDIT: Just to confirm, I'm male. I just play a woman in D&D. Just saying.

I am acutely aware of the level of nerd rage on the subject of Starcraft and Warhammer, but Warhammer actually came first, including all of the races Starcraft was inspired by ('nids, eldar, DE, SM, etc.) I know it sounds like a petty argument, but you wouldn't believe the gak that I hear about it. In fact, Blizzard was supposed to be working on a GW videogame before the plug got pulled. Starcraft was the result.

/Nerdrage.

crazypsyko666 wrote:I am acutely aware of the level of nerd rage on the subject of Starcraft and Warhammer, but Warhammer actually came first, including all of the races Starcraft was inspired by ('nids, eldar, DE, SM, etc.) I know it sounds like a petty argument, but you wouldn't believe the gak that I hear about it. In fact, Blizzard was supposed to be working on a GW videogame before the plug got pulled. Starcraft was the result.

Didn't mean to say that Starcraft came before Warhammer. I simply related it to SC due to knowing that first.

Well, inspired by this thread, and being bored, I spent the last hour coming up with an idea for an alien race that isn't WFB based, and I think, reasonably non staid. I present The Communion of the Core for your discussion, starting with a little bit of fluff.

Across unimaginable distances, messages flash, born of light that is not light; sending not words, but knowing. The Communion of the Core, all it's countless facets thinking, shifting, burning their timeless existences into the infinite void, pauses for an immeasurable moment to ponder.

It's innumerable minds branch off into a hundred thousand debates, arguments, philosophical discussions and even a minor war. Their non linear thoughts flash back and forth for an age that lasts picoseconds, and then Communion is restored. The decision reached, though complex and multi layered to the point of incomprehensibility, would appear thus to a lesser intelligence.

* Collective 17334191 has approached the detected Core-Lowspace bleed. Analysis indicates an ongoing Magnitude Three Event.
Further Analysis shows widespread presence of bioform sentient conduits. Lowspace breaches and bleeds occurring with alarming frequency. Likelihood of systemic bleed-over leading to High Magnitude Event approaches certainty.
Further noted are bioform units belonging to Species 919, indicating near approach of Vanguard Swarms, with a high probability that Infestation Swarm follows. Situation dictates sterilization. Collectives 17334193 through 17334221 dispatched.*

The Communion of the Core is a vast, many galaxy spanning entity. It is made up of a thoroughly large number of Facets, which are basic intelligences. These Facets form together into Shards, which are both composites and separate intelligences of greater power. Shards are subsumed into Actualities, which form into a Collective. Collectives can form into Paradigms, and they all make up the Communion.

It is important to note that while they exist as part of a larger whole, each facet, as well as all composites at all levels exist as discrete conscious constructs. They are nearly incomprehensible to colloidal, linear beings, but also protect the universe from disruptions to real, or core space.

In their eternal, galaxy spanning consciousness, the unfolding of the universe is akin to a symphony played out by the interactions of time and energy, and the bleedover of lowspace (the warp) is like nails on a chalkboard.

So, from a more basic standpoint, they are living crystal beings that transcend mortal morality and logic, are capable of constant and instant mental and physical change, and are vastly powerful.

Luckily for our galaxy, they lack any real means to traverse the space between galaxies in anything less than geological frames of time, and they are rather distant, and they are simply not that "good" at war from a biological standpoint. They either tend to copy basic forms of combat from those they encounter, use slow but ultimately unstoppable swarm tactics, or in the case most germane to the current discussion, make use of Praetors.

It is important to note that the Communion has, under their stewardship, hundreds of more "conventional" races, and at any time, a Collective will likely have a number of them traveling along with them, who wish to get out and see the universe for any number of reasons. The Collective will furnish this by creating a living area out of themselves in the physical center of the Collective, and allowing their passengers to basically do as they wish within.
In circumstances such as they find themselves, a lone Collective against a galaxy for the forseeable future, they may enlist the aid of a more warlike being, creating a Praetor. They will pass along tactical advise and such (although the Communion would never let them endanger themselves in the vulgar necessity of combat). The Praetors chosen by Collective 17334191 are mainly of a warlike race that favors close ranged warfare and ground based fighting. The Collective has split off into Actualities to facilitate the sterilization order, and the Praetors of the Actualities are given significant influence (allowing the Actualities to be given more personality).

Allright, so that's just a bit of brainstorming, i can flesh it out if people like it.

Monster Rain wrote:I always thought that part of the charm of 40k was that it had all sorts of little inside jokes and references from the sci fi genre.

.

I always thought that people enjoyed playing zee-nose because they liked playing the mirror faction in fantasy. That's how GW got people into 40k in the early days. I think it still works.


I can see your point of view, but the game would be pretty dull without our zee-nose friends to push around

Carlovonsexron wrote:Of course, as a Loyal Imperial Citizen, EVERY XENOS MUST DIE, but in a generic sense I really dont like the fact that the Eldar/Dark Eldar, Necros, and (worst of all) Orks are just fantasy rip-offs.

Wait...aren't space orks just a future version of fantasy orcs? Like a more 'evolved' society?

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I always thought that part of the charm of 40k was that it had all sorts of little inside jokes and references from the sci fi genre.

.

I always thought that people enjoyed playing zee-nose because they liked playing the mirror faction in fantasy. That's how GW got people into 40k in the early days. I think it still works.

It might surprise you to learn that there are in fact people who got into 40k WITHOUT playing that square based game first. I tried fantasy AFTER already playing 40k for 2 years, and I know I'm not the only one in my social group.

Some of us just like playing the aliens because we're sick to death of playing fascist human forces in SF miniatures games again (or wanted a change). Many of the human forces in the other games have human factions as bad if not worse than the Imperium of man.

chromedog wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I always thought that part of the charm of 40k was that it had all sorts of little inside jokes and references from the sci fi genre.

.

I always thought that people enjoyed playing zee-nose because they liked playing the mirror faction in fantasy. That's how GW got people into 40k in the early days. I think it still works.

It might surprise you to learn that there are in fact people who got into 40k WITHOUT playing that square based game first. I tried fantasy AFTER already playing 40k for 2 years, and I know I'm not the only one in my social group.

Some of us just like playing the aliens because we're sick to death of playing fascist human forces in SF miniatures games again (or wanted a change). Many of the human forces in the other games have human factions as bad if not worse than the Imperium of man.

The Imperium of Man makes every fascist regime ever look nice. I call BS.

Call it all you like.

Doesn't make it less true.

Klawz wrote:The Horus Heresy is a play off of the Fall of Lucifer in the Bible (forgive me, I don't know which part, probably Genesis) The Primarchs are depicted as the Emperor's angels, and Lucifer used to be God's Chosen..

Thats not form the bible at all actually, so even if you looked for it there you wouldn't find it.

I always thought of the Hersey as mix of a few things, the betrayal of Julius Ceaser by Brutus, in terms of the close company kept, and as for the civil war, there are too many to list that you could look. As for the Primarchs I thought about the four generals of Alexander, the ones who carried on in his steed, and while the Primarchs may not fit exactly it would fit, after all if the golden throne were to breakdown and the emperor of man was to finally die then the the IoM would no doubt divide in the same fashion as the Grecian empire of long ago.

Those are just my two cents

Depending on how literally you take the poetic language, the fall of Lucifer is touched upon in Isaiah and the Book of Revelation. It's obviously more covered in the decidedly non-canonical Paradise lost though. And I don't think anyone would doubt that GW hasn't used the Bible as some inspiration for its mythos (much like most western mythology in the last few centuries)

Just look at the names of some of the Space Marine/Chaos Space Marine special characters if you doubt that. I'd say the Heresy certainly blends in the fall of Lucifer together with the historical collapse and stagnation of many historical societies and empires. The Roman Empire is what springs most readily to mind, simply because it's probably the most widely known historical Empire. There is also a lot of the Holy Roman Empire in there as well (the Crusades = Great Crusade) and the Age of Strife being roughly equivalent to the Dark Ages.

As a prior poster said, the big appeal of 40K's fluff 9in my case) is because it takes a variety of mythical, religious and historical sources, whacks them in a blender and turns the old grim darkness up to 11. I like the historical allusions and names, and spotting them in the background material. (Naming 2 obvious ones, Horus being from the Egyptian pantheon, and Lord Solar Macharius being Alexander the Great in SPAAAACE!)

People are hating orks now!

The death of the warbosses is upon us.

chaplaingrabthar wrote:Depending on how literally you take the poetic language, the fall of Lucifer is touched upon in Isaiah and the Book of Revelation. It's obviously more covered in the decidedly non-canonical Paradise lost though.

I agree with all your points but this one I guess I must agree and disagree with various parts. And it does go back to language. The name Lucifer is a Latin term meaning "morning star" and Isaiah was written in Hebrew so a Latin word would not likely be found there. (There is more to it than this however.) And in Revelation it was speaking of Jesus.
Jesus said the name Belezebub not Lucifer when he was speaking of the ruler of the demons (aka Satan). Even the fall as you mention, found in some translations of Isaiah (but not all) or more popularly the old poem Dantes Inferno with its circles or levels of Hell, and this does indeed radiate with how the Warp seems to work

But this is not the place for this kind of religious discussion. However we can see from this little bit of discussion why the blender can work so well for 40k, there is just so many ideas and sure most are retreads of one kind or another but hey...they all duke it out with dice. And it creates a thinking environment if you want to look into the back story behind the back story.

And if you don't like the aliens go play a game without them. And see how much "idea theft/ idea retread" is really happening. Or go play a Star Wars game where there is a Facist Human government ruling the lesser creatures of the galaxy....

dalsiandon wrote:

Klawz wrote:The Horus Heresy is a play off of the Fall of Lucifer in the Bible (forgive me, I don't know which part, probably Genesis) The Primarchs are depicted as the Emperor's angels, and Lucifer used to be God's Chosen..

Thats not form the bible at all actually, so even if you looked for it there you wouldn't find it.

I always thought of the Hersey as mix of a few things, the betrayal of Julius Ceaser by Brutus, in terms of the close company kept, and as for the civil war, there are too many to list that you could look. As for the Primarchs I thought about the four generals of Alexander, the ones who carried on in his steed, and while the Primarchs may not fit exactly it would fit, after all if the golden throne were to breakdown and the emperor of man was to finally die then the the IoM would no doubt divide in the same fashion as the Grecian empire of long ago.

Those are just my two cents

Hmm! Interesting.
Even then, Horus (lucifer) refuses to bow before the bureaucracy (mankind) that followed him. In fact, his angels felt they were above mere "mortals", and pride is the catalysis for Sin.

40k was always intended to be Fantasy in space.

More over, 40k was originally intended to be ironically serious, even if it isn't now.

Carlovonsexron wrote:

How about a species of sentient arachno-avians

arachno-Avians are so eighties.

Seriously Tolkien did the whole "evil spider" thing ages ago, and so now your right back where we started: copying tolkien-esque fantasy tropes as inspiration.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

MisterMoon wrote:I'm pretty sure that if 40k came out today...

-we wouldn't have Orks, or at least they'd look a lot different, and would certainly be called something less DnDesk.

-'nids are Aliens rips but who cares, and they wouldn't change at all.

-Space Marines would be called something else

-Eldar are ok, but the story is a little tired, but they are fine.

-Kudos for whoever wrote the Tau up.

-Chaos theme is really good too.

-Necrons should have a much larger roll

-DE are finnaly getting some much needed attention, I'm glad GW didn't scrap them. They would be huge in a world if 40k came out today.

I'm pretty sure if 40K came out today it would look just like Halo. Also everyone would ride rocket skateboards and high-five constantly to a hip alt rock soundtrack...

Monster Rain wrote:I always thought that part of the charm of 40k was that it had all sorts of little inside jokes and references from the sci fi genre.

i agree with this, but also 40k puts its own spin on things and really makes each xeno race its own distinct group which can be seen to come from an archtype but transends that in a lot of ways.

Sageheart wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I always thought that part of the charm of 40k was that it had all sorts of little inside jokes and references from the sci fi genre.

i agree with this, but also 40k puts its own spin on things and really makes each xeno race its own distinct group which can be seen to come from an archtype but transends that in a lot of ways.

I don't see it transcending any of it but I agree that it really puts its own slant into the mix. 40K a space fantasy, I think the Gothic art that is scattered throughout the games materials is what gives the game its mood, and considering the mention of Starship Troopers earlier, the IoM is very similar to that government (just look at the way the commissars and the Imperial Guard Operate) but the difference is the art for 40k that Starship Troopers didn't have until the 90's. And by that time Power Armor was a common thing to have in games and books for human soldiers in space. It's just like the Lord of The Rings affect on Fantasy stories.

People don't generally link D&D to LOTRs except to say that they are fantasy even thought one could not exist without the other. How or better yet why? Because D&D has separated it's story and mythology enough from LOTRs that people who pay attention to those things acknowledge the source but can see beyond it.

The same can be said for 40K, it utilizes the same basic races, slaps on some new names sure, Eldar instead of Elf or Elve depending, dark Eldar instead of Drow, okay....but then it shifts, the Elvish folk of fantasy never achieves intergalactic space travel so this kind of shifts that fantasy, what if it had played out that these cultures had done that, of course they all couldn't have shared a world to do it as they do it fantasy so now we get to explore new ways to look at these creatures.

So is it transcending, no but it is different and so I think that some one would be hard pressed to create new aliens without drawing from some already existing Mythos.

Well, again (And while I hate doing it, I'm considering amending my opening post to clarify the point) it isnt broad influences I don't like - its not even specific influences i dont like, its just that I dont find Orks and Eldar particularly compelling or convincing compared the IoM which even in some of its more over the top moments still has so much great back ground to it that allows us to over look its occasional silliness with suspension of disbelief.

Why? Because the IoM takes all thes influences that were incorporated into it, and makes something unique out of them, by casting them in a particular light unique to 40K (or at least a light originating with 40km if others have copied it now - and no that's not a reference to chapterhouse.) including some very nice pieces of rather original fliction - even if that in itsef is the application of certain ideas never before cast into the light fo science fiction. (Jesus is an immortal warlord who has guided mankind for millennia popping up as all sorts of heroic emperor figures from Alexander the Great to Constantine to any other warlord who conspicuously has a love of gold, Religion-Empire, and eagles (for the connection to Alexander, he was supposedly the son of Zeus, whose own symbol was an Eagle.) and then the whole primarch thing - sure it has parallels (in a way) with Alexanders generals, but its a loose fit. I really dont know of anything quite like the primarchs out there in fiction outside of 40K.


But lets move on from that. I don't mind well crafted fiction and design based on or incorporating earlier work - its inevitable. It's really just that there could have been a much better job done with races like the Eldar and Orks, whom just reek of being space elves and space orcs.

And while 40K may have started off as fantasy in space, with the squatting of the squats and the introduction of the Tau, I don't hold the opinion that GW is really continuing to follow that line of development.

The Eldar and the Orks are here to stay - I understand that perfectly. Those of you who have some strange moral outrage at my opinion can sleep safe and sound that I do not herald the beginning of the end for the races you so soundly love. I don't begrudge you for your enthusiasm for these races at all.

But lets face reality here - 40k is fiction. It's fiction that has a history of development, a history of change, and despite it being at its heart a miniatures game has matured into far more then that - video games, loads of books, internet memes, and now even a straight to DvD movie under its belt.

But its a fictional setting - and it should be critiqued like one.

Of course GW hasn't been following the line of development, the timeline has been stuck for idk how long lol. Well and as for ork and eldar being space orks and space elfs, well they are isn't that awesome! lol but seriously there's a massive universe open in 40k to create a race that hasn't even been discovered yet, make your own story that's why 40k is so great. And well since there bankin right now guess GW must have hit alot of peps funny bones with just moving fantasy races to 40k

Carlovonsexron wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

so, that means the Space Marines have to go to... they're a rip off of many sci-fi genres... oh, and Imperial Guard, so, who's left Tau? oops, a rip-off of anime/manga styed sci-fi. congratulations, you have just ended 40K by showing that it has no originality at all...

moron...

Someone seems to not have the conception that my main critique is with the influence of warhammer fantasy in 40k, but of course calling me a 'moron' while ignoring much of what I say must be a true example of skill and calculated logical argument...

Except oh wait. It isnt.

I dont have a problem with influence- Influence is good an inevitable. But the whole sale adoption of fantasy tropes is lame.

I had always thought that the fact there were so many races from the fantasy version just hinted at the fact all of the races eventually went spacebourne, thats what I liked to think anyways.

Austragalis wrote: 40k was originally intended to be ironically serious, even if it isn't now.

did you mean to say . . . Ironically, 40k was intended to be serious?

(not trying to be an a$$hat, just genuinely curious)

The OP failed to include Daemons in his original assessment..what do you think?