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CT GAMER wrote:And do they force you at gun point to buy them?

YES, GW wants to sell models. Period. Is that really news to anybody?!?

People can choose to buy or not.

Excessive hyperbole (gunpoint) aside, the fact is, if you want to play, yes, you have to buy them. And I don't mind paying for models if the rules are so interesting that it inspires me to do so. Spearhead does not.

I have to concur with the earlier gentleman who felt it was a craven cash grab. Of course it's GWS perogative to release expansions with flimsy rules which add little to the game tactically other then pushing their higher margin kits, just as it's our perogative to call them on it and choose not to buy. The reason I find it distasteful is also, I suspect, the reason they released it for free: they can't sell it, it's too half-ass.

There is already a small, thin streak of classs warfare in 40K. It's mostly muted and subdued, but it's indisputable that if you can only afford to buy a battleforce, a few models, and the rulebook, you're going to occaisionally outclassed by people who have more economic freedom then you do, rather then superior tactics... as goes real war. That's fine, to a point, so long as the game remains mostly an intellectual excersize rather then an excersize in cash-waving. Unfortunately, I think Spearhead is structure in such a way as to embiggen that aspect of the game: there is a level of wallet which no clever tactics can overcome.

I'd rather see more expansions like Battle Missions, which give me new ways to play the game, and more options for expanding it... at your own pace, when and how I want to.

I'd play Spearhead, except I don't buy WD anymore (what would be the point?) so I don't know the main rules, just the formations on GW's website.

Not much interest in spearhead in my area. GW seems to roll things out (like the rollouts or not) and then quickly abandon them! Would like to play once in awile.

Is there a planetstrike poll? Have had a lot more fun with this in small combat patrol or kill team games, where you switch up from attacker to dender.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...dender? Must find spellcheck expansion!!!!

Oddly enough, although I use an Armoured Battlegroup and we play the odd Apocalypse game I have no interest in Spearhead.

Ouze wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:And do they force you at gun point to buy them?

YES, GW wants to sell models. Period. Is that really news to anybody?!?

People can choose to buy or not.

Excessive hyperbole (gunpoint) aside, the fact is, if you want to play, yes, you have to buy them. And I don't mind paying for models if the rules are so interesting that it inspires me to do so. Spearhead does not.

I myself already owned many tanks and models BEFORE spearhead came out, and I know many people that had same.

Spearhead does not require suer heavies, it also does not require an excessive amount of vehicles. I have played and witnessed Spearhead games with similar vehicle counts to some regular 40K armies.

What it does do is give you some new options and the ability to model and play some vehicle squadrons with a little customization and character.

Just because something has the potential to be played bigger and bigger does not mean it has to be to be enjoyable.

Some of the best Apocalpse games I have played have been 3000-4000 point games not 100K grinds...

The game and the expansions are what you make of them.

CT GAMER wrote:I myself already owned many tanks and models BEFORE spearhead came out, and I know many people that had same.

Spearhead does not require suer heavies, it also does not require an excessive amount of vehicles. I have played and witnessed Spearhead games with similar vehicle counts to some regular 40K armies.

What it does do is give you some new options and the ability to model and play some vehicle squadrons with a little customization and character.

I don't know how many tanks people have, typically. So it's hard to gauge how broad the appeal for this is.

What are some of the options and such you have found appealing, specifically? What are some of the army lists you have seen\played that you'd consider to be the minimum investment required to play a "typical" game?

chaplaingrabthar wrote:I'd play Spearhead, except I don't buy WD anymore (what would be the point?) so I don't know the main rules, just the formations on GW's website.

The main "rules" are just alternate deployments (oddly enough, they're very similar to a couple of 3rd edition setups) plus trashed superheavies count as an extra objective - it's easier to just ignore these and simply use the spearheads.

I think Spearhead may have been a cheeky way to test out a new idea, to see if it would be worth putting in 6th edition. I personally like the rules, paying a little extra in points to get some interesting rules* and minor breaks to the FOC - in a 1500pts game it really wont break the game if you have a spearhead or two and your opponent doesn't.

*such as firing weapons at Cruising Speed or after running, Vehicle Invulnerables, squadron like formations without clunky squadron rules etc

I woudl disagree that Spearhead is just to make more money, I'd say it's more rule testing for possible expansion in 6th edition, maybe for some kind of 'armored clash' battle mission or something....I don't know.

But yes, the fact that they didn't try to make a whole new book with a bunch of crap just to fill out the pages and THEN try to sell it to us makes me think that GW might be a bit more altruistic with Spearhead. More importantly, I just think that Spearhead is a good inbetween step from regular 40k to Apoc what with allowing additonal units beyond the FOC and the like. I mean, yeah it's focused on tanks, but there's a Spearhead formation that is all about infantry. As a treadhead myself (and I KNOW there are others out there) I like the ability to just put rows of tanks on the field. It's fun!

Ouze wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:I myself already owned many tanks and models BEFORE spearhead came out, and I know many people that had same.

Spearhead does not require suer heavies, it also does not require an excessive amount of vehicles. I have played and witnessed Spearhead games with similar vehicle counts to some regular 40K armies.

What it does do is give you some new options and the ability to model and play some vehicle squadrons with a little customization and character.

I don't know how many tanks people have, typically. So it's hard to gauge how broad the appeal for this is.

What are some of the options and such you have found appealing, specifically? What are some of the army lists you have seen\played that you'd consider to be the minimum investment required to play a "typical" game?

Well looking at some regular 40K mechanized lists (1500pts) my sons and I have written up recently I see:

Space marines: six vehicles

IG: seven vehicles

Orks: twelve vehicles

These are lists with a mechanized theme written to be used in standard 1500pt. 40K games. Given that most people seem to play 2000pt. games fairly regularly I would expect those numbers to not be unusual as far as how many vehicles one might have in one's collection.

The way it is suggested that Spearhead work is that you take a standard 40k list and then agree with your opponent to add "x" number of Spearhead points to buy spearhead formations, etc. Note: these distinctions can be added to existing units in the army or additional units/models that go beyond standard force org. as you choose.

So for example say I'm playing against my son's IG with my orks (using the 1500pt. lists mentioned above) and we decide to play Spearhead; we might do this:

We forgo adding any model and choose to add 120pts. of Spearhead units (may spearhead formations cost 60pts. so in effect we are adding two spearheads per army); My son adds "mechanized assault spearhead" to his infantry platoon in chimeras (+60pts.) allowing them to flank from reserve, and adds the "tankhunter spearhead" to his sentinel squadron with lascannons making them a formidable anti-tank unit (+60pts.).

I do similar in my army, choosing a spearhead formation or two and adding them to units of my choice.

thus we are playing Spearhead without adding any additional units to our armies and without spending an additional cent on new models.

etc., etc.

I think perhaps people need to replace their cynacism with a more open minded look at how things like Spearhead might expand gameplay options by facilitating thematic modelling, scenarios, army fluff and campaign play...

Sure you can rush out and buy $1000.00 worth of tanks to play Spearhead if you desire, but in no way is it a requirement to buy anything extra to use said rules.

CT GAMER wrote:thus we are playing Spearhead without adding any additional units to our armies and without spending an additional cent on new models

A great point

As Spearhead also allows you to take Dedicated Transports as Heavy Support choices (obviously meaning you don't have to have to buy an infantry unit to get it) you could use the Outrider Spearhead to flank your precious Vindicator/Land Raider with 2 cheap Rhinos - You can nominate to take the hits against the Rhino(s) instead of the Vindicator/Land Raider

The Poll needs a "transparent ploy by GW" option.

It's really "Youdon'thaveenoughtanks"head.

Much like Apocabuymorestuffalypse.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:The Poll needs a "transparent ploy by GW" option.

It's really "Youdon'thaveenoughtanks"head.

Much like Apocabuymorestuffalypse.

Most dakka polls also should have a "I nerdrage about everything, so why would this be any different" option or perhaps a "I like to complain about things even when what I am saying isn't logical or true" option...

Yes, because everyone has 10 Bloodthirsters. I'm being so illogical. Thanks CT.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Yes, because everyone has 10 Bloodthirsters. I'm being so illogical. Thanks CT.

You are not required you to have ten. I have seen plenty of Apoc. games in which Chaos played without that formation and did just fine...

Some people love to amass large collections of models. Some people also have the motivation and disposable income to choose to build formations like that. Again: keyword being choice .

Yes GW likes to sell models, shocking I know; in fact it is the primary reason for their existance is it not? Is this news to anyone at this point?

The game still functions without it's use, and it isn't a requiremen to win.

So... what was your point again?

That it is insulting to foist the idea that we need more models than can actually be used in a regular game for a flash in the pan "expansion" that they can't even bother to make coherent rules for or support for more than 2 months.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:That it is insulting to foist the idea that we need more models than can actually be used in a regular game for a flash in the pan "expansion" that they can't even bother to make coherent rules for or support for more than 2 months.

\

Again it comes down to impulse control and choice.

Personally I like Apoc., Spearhead, COD, Kill Team, any format that offers increased game variety, encourages thematic modelling, themed armies, or that can be incorporated into scenarios/campaigns to add depth and further the story.

That being said I also have been around long enough to see my LATD and Genestealer cult armies get nixed, and now use some restraint when it comes to "expansions" and "specialty armies":

I don't buy more of any particular thing then I could field in a standard force org/army list.

I could field 180 boyz in six troop slots of 30 so yeah I'll invest in them and now I can field them as a "green tide" in Apoc. as well.

I can field four Deff Dreds (thanks to a big mek) so that is my max in my collection.

I have nine wartrakks.

etc., etc.

Then when play an expansion like Apoc. I structure my armies based upon this self-applied restraint.

Apoc. does not require ypou to go overboard to use the rules, be competative or have fun.

Yes I COULD field 20 Stompas, but I can also build a sizable Apoc. army just based upon the broader collection i have.

People sometimes confuse what one MUST do with what one COULD do...

Apoc., SPearhead, etc. can both be played and enjoyed with standard forces and without a focus on big ticket items.

The nerdrage over the supposed NEED to have thirty superheavies is all hot air as far as I'm concerned...

CT really did hit it quite on the head. Yeah, of course GW wants to sell models. They're a publicily traded company not a 'cater to every single person's complaints' group. So yes, they want to sell more models, and how do they do this? They do it by offering new rule sets that allow people to play around more. Sure not everyone has the stuff they need to play Apox or Spearhead, but--and here's the kicker--NEITHER of the optional expansions replace the original 40k game! Amazing isn't it? GW releases new (optional, emphasis on that word here) rules for people who choose to buy more models. Some of us just love collecting, so it's nice to know that 'oh sweet, now there are rule for me geting to field dozens of tanks!' and see if someone wants to play against us using those rules.

No one is forcing you to buy 12 new Bloodthirsters or 5 Baneblades.....but some people have that kind of stuff, and others justh vae large collections of models. Sometimes they want to have fun by just putting every single model they own on the table and fighting a battle with it. Other's don't. That's fine. You don't have to play my 6000 points with 3 superheavies army if you don't want, and it's not like the game revolves around superheavies. It's a nice add on that some people enjoy. Others--clearly--do not.

TL;DR yes GW probably wants to sell more things with Spearhead, but given that it's not replacing the coregame, no one is forcing you to buy hordes of expensive tanks to play regular 40k.

ChrisWWII wrote:TL;DR yes GW probably wants to sell more things with Spearhead, but given that it's not replacing the coregame, no one is forcing you to buy hordes of expensive tanks to play regular 40k.

Having fun whaling away on that strawman? Not a single person in this thread has said, implied, or insinuated that "they are being forced to buy hordes of expensive tanks to play regular 40k".

The rest of your argument is much more persuasive: that it's simply another option for people who already have, or enjoy collecting, many tanks. The fact people are hesitant to purchase a lot of armor that they perhaps will not normally field so they can try the new expansion is reasonable, I think, given that A.) It's an expensive hobby, and B.) Games Workshop has a poor history of followup with this sort of expansion.

Perhaps part of the problem with Spearhead is that it has not been very well marketed, and many people don't clearly understand the concept, the cost to entry, and what it's unique twist is on the game: what it contributes that 40K doesn't already have.

Hence why it's a tl;dr argument. But some people have been complaining that it's just an excuse to sell more models, and in essence I was saying that their complaints are invalid as the core game of 40k is still there, with or without the expansion.

I'd say that even if the 'expansion' is not fully supported, well the rules will still always be there, and if you can get enough people interested in playing games of Spearhead, you won't have to worry about never being able to use the models. Of course for some players, having the models is an end in and of itself, but I realize that's not for everyone. THink of it as trying to bring a new game system into your FLGS....at first not a lot of people will be playing, but if you create a bit of love for the expansion within your community then the concerns will be lessened. I know GW isn't the greatest company when it comes to supporting its player base, but we can't expect them to hold our hands for things. They probably could have marketed it better yes, and that could be as simple as posting the actual rules on the website as opposed to only the fomations.....but even then, I think that the prevalence of game like Spearhed revolves a bunch of players getting together and saying 'Hey, you know what would be really cool?'

Looks like 20 tanks ($$$ for GW) stacked on a dining table.
Gimme something necromund'ish

I appreciate the fact that it's not printed on an expensive book, it's actually on a WD which is much more affordable. And the fact that you could actually use your current crop of vehicles and men to play the new expansion, that's cool!

And now that it has been released on the web site, it's even more affordable!

CT, you mention army lists you and your sons draw up. 40k bonds ya'll then? I'm assuming you put some good money into it. I'm just guessing you have spent more on the hobby than many.

As far as Spearhead, my mech sisters may be a mech list, but most of those units are fairly useless in Spearhead, especially against Leman or Land R spam. It's not that Spearhead is an abomination in the eyes of the lord, it's simply a half-assed money grab. It's not "nerdrage" to point out that not all of us are career-folk using a quarter of our paycheck on wargaming, or that GW might improve their dwindling sales figures with some actual innovations based around the majority of their playerbase.

It looks pretty cool, but I'd need to spend a lot more money to play it right.

thebaroness wrote:CT, you mention army lists you and your sons draw up. 40k bonds ya'll then? I'm assuming you put some good money into it. I'm just guessing you have spent more

I'm not that sure our collection of GW is really all that impressive compared to even just the people I happen to know or have run across in my gaming travels.

I guess I own about 37 Ork vehicles all told (everything from warbuggies up to stompas and a little of everything (trukks, wagons, etc.) in between. I have seen many collections far larger pretty regularly.

Between my two sons (Marines and IG) they have about 20 vehicles currently.

So no I don't think my collection of Orks is all that impressive size-wise.

Irregardless, I have seen regular 40K games played with more vehicles then some of the spearhead games I have seen. Spearhead also has a formation that allows you to give some AT explosives to a human wave of troop choices, etc.

Point being you do not need to be able to spam Landraiders or Leman Russ tanks to play nor to be competitive in the format. IF you are playing a 1500-200pt. Spearhead game you aren't seeing many more tanks then you might see in a standard 40k game of the same size, you just seeing them used in some formations with a few extra rules, etc.

Again, the expansion is what you make of it...

CT GAMER wrote:

thebaroness wrote:CT, you mention army lists you and your sons draw up. 40k bonds ya'll then? I'm assuming you put some good money into it. I'm just guessing you have spent more

I'm not that sure our collection of GW is really all that impressive compared to even just the people I happen to know or have run across in my gaming travels.

I guess I own about 37 Ork vehicles all told (everything from warbuggies up to stompas and a little of everything (trukks, waagns, etc.) in between). I have seen many collections far larger pretty regularly.

Between my two sons (Marines and IG) they have about 20 vehicles currently.

So no I don't think my collection of Orks is all that impressive size-wise.

That's a nice collection. Not a bad thing either, but it is certainly representative of either money-havin' or time in hobby. Again, neither is wrong. It's just that if GW wants to sell models to the noobs, attract the vets who have collections, and retain people who see some cheaper alternatives out there, they might want to look into at least shoring up stuff like Spearhead. Hell, keep it free, but make it something we would have paid for! When my favorite wargaming company puts me in a good mood, I tend to buy stuff. Then maybe I could play Spearhead as it is meant to be played, instead of playing points games with my list.

Again, the expansion is what you make of it...

Agreed, for the most part. You know FLG's vary widely, so some people might be stuck with crowds where unless they can find a box of money, they can expect to get beaten down. I'm not saying the sky is falling, I'm just saying that Spearhead wasn't the greatest idea. Personally, I would have liked a few new "for fun" mission types or some expanded Apoc fun. I think I come down on stuff like Spearhead more because it is representative of some of GW's bad habits rather than a problem in and of itself.

My main army is Mech IG. I glanced over the rules to Spearhead, and from the looks of things it doesn't really change anything for me. It gets more tanks on the board sure, but its the same game it was before, just bigger. It's almost like diet apocalypse.

I think it could be better as I dont have the rules for Appocolypse or Planetstrike. As for some saying it's a selfless promotion to get us to buy more GW stuff... yes. Any business that gets people to buy enough of it's stuff to function and says go ahead, hang out at the stores that bear our name and buy nothing is doomed to fail. The constant rules changes that make us go get different models to exploit the new strengths and weakness' is all part of a well run company. I do agree with others that the Spearhead rules could involve less time cross-referencing other expansions, but I think that massive vehicle battles could be fun if people were interested. I also wonder if anyone has posted the needed rules in a forum somewhere for quick reference that someone could print out and have with the printed PDF of the Spearhead expansion. ((Pardon for any miss-spellings.. it's 7AM, and there is no spell check))

The rules for spearhead are available direct from GW's website here.

This is the full rules, they added the full rules in addition to the spearheads last month I think...

The poll is missing the response: I play 40k but I haven't heard of Spearhead.


King Ghidorah