Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Funnily enough, even the Chaos 'Gods' can be explained away in a (super)scientific manner as extremely powerful parasites dwelling in the Warp. No such explanation is given for the Ork or Eldar gods though.

Xanadu wrote:most if not all GW has made is stolen (blatantly in many cases)

Most modern sci fi isn't original either. So the origins of the 40k universe aren't unique in that respect. So what's your point?

ToBeWilly wrote:Religion and science, they do not coexist. 40K is science-fiction, which makes it besed loosely on science, which doesn't coincide with religion. So yes, it's a dig on religion.

40k is not really science-fiction. That term gets thrown around misleadingly because it takes place in space. Fantasy fiction set in space, fine. But saying it is 'science' fiction is pretty insulting to real science fiction which tries to create, through scientific theorizing, a plausible scenario for the future. Ray guns and bug eyed aliens and dark gods of the warp are not really a plausible future scenario. Read some Asimov or Niven or Arthur Clark as good examples of writers attempting to establish plausible possible futures without falling back on 'magic' (or psykers - same thing) to explain the unexplainable. Just because the enchanted sword excalibur looks high tech and has a different name doesn't make it any more 'science' than a horoscope or a biblical prophecy or a round table legend.

YES. The fluff is based around the idea that, although there are some very powerful beings in the universe, they are not 'gods', did not 'create' the universe, and don't care at all for their followers. The followers merely worship these beings as gods, without really understanding what they are (Eldar Gods, Primarchs, The Emperor, C'Tan, Chaos Gods etc).

The stated intent of the Emperor was to end all religion, and this was to be considered a good thing. The reason that the 41st M IoM is in such a bad way is heavily implied to be the fault of overbearing religion vs scientific enlightenment.

Given the very deliberate dig at the Catholic church present throughout the IoM background, and the fact that this is a game developed in the UK, where the vast majority of the population don't care for religion (of a population of 60 million, only 8% worship regularly), I'd imagine that the dig at religion is VERY intentional on the part of the designers.

And I completely agree with it.

Jesus despised his own jewish religious leadership for its hippocrasy and greed and lashed out against it because it was all just a big greedy sham to keep people in line too. Funny how that works... post-Paul 'christianity' turned the ideal of a Jesus myth into a new sham to keep people in line too. The ecclesiarchy does the same in 40k to the Emprah's origional goal as early roman catholic christianity did to Jesus' teaching.

And then you get people like Sebastian Thor, who was pretty much the Emperor's voice. Which did not result in dismantling the Ecclesiarchy but instead reforming it.

Amaya wrote:I would not describe the Imperium's religion as a positive force.

Then you would be wrong.

The Ecclesiarchy itself might be a corrupt institution with far too much politics going on (much like churches in real life I should note, so this is no surprise to me), but the actual religion itself, distanced from the corrupt bodies that feed off of it? It is indeed a powerful, positive force in the galaxy, protecting people from the devastation caused by the corruption of chaos. The chaos gods don't care about humanity, they just want their ego stroked. The Emperor, however, does care about humanity. He may not like religion, but he certainly is willing to use it for the betterment of mankind now that he is stick upon his throne.

Melissia wrote:

Amaya wrote:I would not describe the Imperium's religion as a positive force.

Then you would be wrong.

The Ecclesiarchy itself might be a corrupt institution with far too much politics going on (much like churches in real life I should note, so this is no surprise to me), but the actual religion itself, distanced from the corrupt bodies that feed off of it? It is indeed a powerful, positive force in the galaxy, protecting people from the devastation caused by the corruption of chaos. The chaos gods don't care about humanity, they just want their ego stroked. The Emperor, however, does care about humanity. He may not like religion, but he certainly is willing to use it for the betterment of mankind now that he is stick upon his throne.

Right, first off. Amaya says he 'would not describe it as a positive force'. The only way he is WRONG is if he is, in fact, lying and WOULD describe it as a positive force. I believe what you meant to say was 'I politely disagree with you'. Right?


I agree that the blind faith that the citizens have DOES have it's positives, as you say.

However, we never really know if the people of the Imperium would do just as well if the Warp and Chaos were explained to them scientifically rather than spiritually, since that never even happened in the time of the Emperor.

Just as, in the real world, religion had LOTS of benefits to communities, since it generally took good community sense (don't sleep with someone else's wife, don't kill someone else) and turned them into 'religious commandments' to make sure everyone followed them. Once people choose to follow these 'commandments' because they're good ideas in and of themselves (rather than because God tells you to) then the need for religion is questioned. However, we never see this side in 40k.

Faith keeps back Chaos, and that's a good thing, but it may well be that study and understanding would keep it back even better....!

Insightful post, OP.

I think (and have said before) that the gothic quality of 40k is inspired by the latent anti-Catholicism of British culture. The same cultural imagination that invented the Black Legend of the Spanish Inquisition is behind the Inquisition of 40k. You can see this same kind of anti-Catholicism in movies like Elizabeth: The Golden Age. I'd go so far as to say that it's no coincidence that Dawkins in British, but I guess it's a bit off-topic.

ArbitorIan wrote:Faith keeps back Chaos, and that's a good thing, but it may well be that study and understanding would keep it back even better....!

Or it could be that understanding it only drives most people insane.

Chaos doesn't follow the laws of science anyway.

Also, McNeill's story "The Last Church" is an unintentional lampoon of the New Atheist rhetoric. IMO, it's utterly preposterous but seems to support OP's idea.

The only reason someone hasn't killed someone else for the name of science is because too many groupings have science. (And because "In the name of science" is a silly battle cry.)

Lol you gyus have to realize that the Emperium (A.K.A.) Emperor and his Lords of Terra are really the Church of Scientology, a real church today. In the 40k story line this group is banned from the American Empire and forced to hide in the Middle East. Here the Chruch of Scientolgy is protected by the Middle Eastern Pact forces defending their vital Oil supplies from others, The Church of Scientology then creates the first Super Soldiers, the Emperor and this starts the great war that is known as ....let me reamber right.....The Great Crusade....it unites most of Terra and its colonies in the Sol system under one leader the Emperor. And the rest of the story you guys know.....

LordWynne wrote:Lol you gyus have to realize that the Emperium (A.K.A.) Emperor and his Lords of Terra are really the Church of Scientology, a real church today. In the 40k story line this group is banned from the American Empire and forced to hide in the Middle East. Here the Chruch of Scientolgy is protected by the Middle Eastern Pact forces defending their vital Oil supplies from others, The Church of Scientology then creates the first Super Soldiers, the Emperor and this starts the great war that is known as ....let me reamber right.....The Great Crusade....it unites most of Terra and its colonies in the Sol system under one leader the Emperor. And the rest of the story you guys know.....

.....no more drugs...for that man.

Just kidding .

Manchu wrote:Insightful post, OP.

I think (and have said before) that the gothic quality of 40k is inspired by the latent anti-Catholicism of British culture. The same cultural imagination that invented the Black Legend of the Spanish Inquisition is behind the Inquisition of 40k. You can see this same kind of anti-Catholicism in movies like Elizabeth: The Golden Age. I'd go so far as to say that it's no coincidence that Dawkins in British, but I guess it's a bit off-topic.

Well i think alot more anti-catholic feeling in the film came from the fact that they were invading in the name of the pope. The film isn't anti-catholic because it was made in Britain, but because it is an accurate depiction of history.

Anyway back to the point, clear links can be seen between between the Jesus and the Emperor, and the Roman Catholic Church with the IoM. Jesus and the Emperor were both free thinkers and brought new ideas to the masses. The Roman Catholic Church and the IoM were both not created by their respective gods, but used to control the masses and justify the present leadership, both are layered with dogma that has replaced the free thinking that their gods wanted. the Roman Catholic Church and the IoM both have had inquisitors, witchhunts, holy wars, crusades etc.

Back when it was first creayed the satire/link was much more obvious to the point that some church-goers actually did complain, but as GW is now an international company and not a garage set up, i think the intentional poking has been replaced by new writers just working within the established framework without an anti-religious agenda.

I think that the setting of the 40k universe is heavily based on Medieval Europe. The fact that the Europeans had lost large amounts of technology with the fall of the roman empire and went through the dark age (represented in the 40k fluff) the rise of christianity hindered european scientific development as it kept it back and acussed scientists of hersey and persicuted them (the same as in the 40k fluff) untill the renaissance in europe. Even the space marines represent the many different knightly orders in Europe all sworn to Christianity (the emporer in 40k case). So I believe that its more a fact that its based on all the crazy beleifs and supersition of the medieval period rather than a dig at god.

But having said that black library authors all have their own belifs and standards so they may well project an anti religion tone more strongly in their novels than others.

Just my take on things

Big G

BluntmanDC wrote:Well i think alot more anti-catholic feeling in the film came from the fact that they were invading in the name of the pope. The film isn't anti-catholic because it was made in Britain, but because it is an accurate depiction of history.

It takes more than mere dates and names to accurately depict history. In terms of it's script, that movie conforms to an interpretation of history (not coincidentally, an interpretation popular in Britain since the times of Elizabeth I -- it's propaganda after all) that is explicitly anti-Catholic. In terms of it's visual content, the movie is overtly anti-Catholic.

BluntmanDC wrote:Anyway back to the point, clear links can be seen between between the Jesus and the Emperor, and the Roman Catholic Church with the IoM. Jesus and the Emperor were both free thinkers and brought new ideas to the masses. The Roman Catholic Church and the IoM were both not created by their respective gods, but used to control the masses and justify the present leadership, both are layered with dogma that has replaced the free thinking that their gods wanted. the Roman Catholic Church and the IoM both have had inquisitors, witchhunts, holy wars, crusades etc.

That's certainly one perspective on the Catholic Church: a naive, uninformed, insulting and ultimately ludicrous perspective but a perspective nonetheless. Even so, I am inclined to agree that this is the perspective that GW fluff authors have adopted in satirizing Catholicism through the Ecclesiarchy in the finest British tradition of anti-Catholicism.

BluntmanDC wrote:Back when it was first creayed the satire/link was much more obvious to the point that some church-goers actually did complain, but as GW is now an international company and not a garage set up, i think the intentional poking has been replaced by new writers just working within the established framework without an anti-religious agenda.

I agree that GW authors don't really have an agenda, per se. Like every one else, however, they can't help but be influenced by their own personal beliefs and the ideas that are current to their times. I would reiterate that McNeill's Last Church is a fine example of the same muddled thinking that one can find in The God Delusion.

Manchu wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:Well i think alot more anti-catholic feeling in the film came from the fact that they were invading in the name of the pope. The film isn't anti-catholic because it was made in Britain, but because it is an accurate depiction of history.

It takes more than mere dates and names to accurately depict history. In terms of it's script, that movie conforms to an interpretation of history (not coincidentally, an interpretation popular in Britain since the times of Elizabeth I -- it's propaganda after all) that is explicitly anti-Catholic. In terms of it's visual content, the movie is overtly anti-Catholic.

I haven't actually seen that film - I saw a few minutes of it on a plane, I thought it looked awful! But I will weigh in on this anyway: at the time of Elizabeth's reign, the Spanish Armada etc there was a great deal of anti-catholic sentiment in Britain, and elsewhere through Europe - just as there was intense anti-Protestant sentiment in the countries still following the Catholic church. Even after the colossally bloody and protracted religious wars ended, this sort of prejudice did linger for a long time.
BUT I don't think that means the movie was anti-Catholic, nor do I think there is much anti-Catholic sentiment in Britain today. You'd have to go seek out some real right-wing nationalist nutjobs for that. As I understand it the film was made portraying Elizabeth resisting potential invasion by a Catholic country (and Spain did see invading England at least partly as a religious venture) so it seems natural, as with most films, that the protagonists were made more heroic and the antagonists more villainous. I can't see that this reflects anti-Catholic feeling on behalf of the films' producers.

Edit: point I forgot to make: as ArbitorIan pointed out, very few people in the UK partake of organised religion regularly. That does argue against any strong religious feelings or prejudices.

I thought people were a bit more critical of propaganda these days but . . .

I'm not going to take it upon myself to teach anyone here about historiography. In lieu of that, here's a link:

http://www.decentfilms.com/reviews/elizabeth2.html

@Manchu: how is denying someone who says "this is GOD and you have to believe or you are damned, trust us we know best" naive? Whether its Catholics or Jews or Subgenius members or Allah or Buddha or Bob the nutty guy down the street, denying religion, which is by nature an affront to free thinking, in whatever form is hardly naive. If anything, believing what you are told because someone said so is naive.

Well if you look most of 40k is based on some form of culture e.g
Thousand sons = egyptians and Space wolves= vikings

Yeah read the god delusion, it all makes sense haha.

Back on topic, I think its just Medieval Europe in the far future with orks and space elves thrown in to make it more fun to play and not really a dig at religion.

As for there being no widespread anti-Catholic sentiment in the UK today, ask yourself why Tony Blair only converted to Catholicism after resigning as PM and leader of the Labour Party. (And this despite the fact that both his children and wife were already Catholic and there being widespread rumors of his own religious convictions, including publicly attending mass.) Your country's prejudices are a lot more complicated -- and more current -- than perhaps you realize.

In my view, only the British could have dreamt up 40k. And British anti-Catholicism is a big part of that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadge wrote:Yeah read the god delusion, it all makes sense haha.

A book written by someone who has no understanding of the topic he is writing about is bound to make sense to a reader who is similarly uninformed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yeenoghu wrote:@Manchu: how is denying someone who says "this is GOD and you have to believe or you are damned, trust us we know best" naive? Whether its Catholics or Jews or Subgenius members or Allah or Buddha or Bob the nutty guy down the street, denying religion, which is by nature an affront to free thinking, in whatever form is hardly naive. If anything, believing what you are told because someone said so is naive.

Religion is in no sense an affront to freethinking. Believing something solely because someone told you to does not qualify as religious faith, at least not in the Christian (Catholic) sense.

I would say religious intolerance is not just confined to the UK im afraid, but there is still a devide between catholics and protestants in the UK, but its more to do with football rivalries (rangers and celtic for example) and its often due to kids being brought up with their parents views and hatred to people, not really anything to do with religion, think they have forgot about why the hate each other, the religious wars in Europe have been over for a few hundred years.

Anyway best to stay on topic i think,

Big G



Automatically Appended Next Post:

A book written by someone who has no idea about what he is writing about is bound to make sense to a reader who is similarly uninformed.

I was brought up catholic, in Scotland. Then I got older and say the truth haha, right think its best to not get into a theological debate and get back to talking about toy soldiers

Big G

No, it's not confined to the UK, but the rift between Catholicism and Protestantism is historically very strong there.

Well, we are on topic.

Religious intolerance is not limited to the UK, of course. But anti-Catholicism is particularly potent in the UK (and, not least of all because of its origins as part of the British Empire, the US).

The background of Warhammer 40k is a mosaic of pop culture images and references, some of which are far older than their most immediately recognizable iteration. The long-standing British hatred and suspicion regarding Catholicism seems like a pretty obvious example.

I was brought up catholic

Honestly, this fact alone does not make you any more likely to know anything more about Catholicism than any one else.

Manchu wrote:Well, we are on topic.

Religious intolerance is not limited to the UK, of course. But anti-Catholicism is particularly potent in the UK (and, not least of all because of its origins as part of the British Empire, the US).

The background of Warhammer 40k is a mosaic of pop culture images and references, some of which are far older than their most immediately recognizable iteration. The long-standing British hatred and suspicion regarding Catholicism seems like a pretty obvious example.

I was brought up catholic

Honestly, this fact alone does not make you any more likely to know anything about Catholicism than any one else.

In my limited experience Catholics tend to be less informed about their regilion. The Catholic Church doesn't exactly encourage study of the Bible.

Manchu wrote:A book written by someone who has no idea about what he is writing about is bound to make sense to a reader who is similarly uninformed.

Well, that was rather rude.

Is this where the others that disagree with you post 'NUH UH, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT'

@Amaya: I agree with your point but it has nothing to do with studying or not studying the Bible.

@AgeofEgos: I don't see how. I've read the book. Dawkins has no understanding of religion. The thing he is attacking is not religion. The thing he attacks is something that Westerners, regardless of their knowledge about any subject, would dislike. As such, the only people who could find his argument compelling are people who similarly have no understanding of religion. I know very little about Islam. If I wrote a book denouncing it, the only people who'd find it convincing are other people who know little or nothing about Islam.

A cursory search will show you that Dawkins abuses the 'straw man' fallacy in The God Delusion.

Manchu wrote:
@AgeofEgos: I don't see how. I've read the book. Dawkins has no understanding of religion. The thing he is attacking is not religion. The thing he attacks is something that Westerner, regardless of their knowledge about any subject, would dislike. As such, the only people who could find his argument compelling are people who similarly have no understanding of religion. I know very little about Islam. If I wrote a book denouncing it, the only people who'd find it convincing are other people who know little or nothing about Islam.

Well...I think arguing Dawkins points is a much better angle than openly stating in a thread....anyone that agrees with him has no idea what they're talking about. Plus, this probably isn't a good thread to discuss real life politics/religion...