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Ok its not what you gus are talking about but are word beares meant to represent catholics , their homeworld is called catholis coincedence ?

AgeOfEgos wrote:Plus, this probably isn't a good thread to discuss real life politics/religion...

That's the topic.


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moonshine wrote:Ok its not what you gus are talking about but are ord beares meant to represent catholics , their homeworl is called catholis coincedence ?

The Word Bearers were from Colchis.

Manchu wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:Plus, this probably isn't a good thread to discuss real life politics/religion...

That's the topic.

The topic is if 40k has religious tie ins in order to demean it....not if religion is false/true or if people that agree with atheistic books are idiots.

First, idiot is a term you've introduced to this discussion.

Second, we're only talking about Dawkins because I brought up British anti-Catholicism and also mentioned that it's no coincidence that Dawkins is British. These are on-topic comments. From there, people began to claim things about history and religion that are false. In pointing out that these claims are false, the idea that Richard Dawkins could be a good source to learn about religion came up. I rejected it. We're still on topic here, Ageof Egos. If you don't want to discuss this topic, that's okay.

Manchu wrote:First, idiot is a term you've introduced to this discussion.

Second, we're only talking about Dawkins because I brought up British anti-Catholicism and also mentioned that it's no coincidence that Dawkins is British. These are on-topic comments. From there, people began to claim things about history and religion that are false. In pointing out that these claims are false, the idea that Richard Dawkins could be a good source to learn about religion came up. I rejected it. We're still on topic here, Ageof Egos. If you don't want to discuss this topic, that's okay.

....you stated that Dawkins was someone who has no understanding of the topic he is writing about is bound to make sense to a reader who is similarly uninformed....in a 40k background thread....about toy soldiers....

. . . in a thread about whether the 40k Background is an insult to/parody of religion.

Manchu wrote:. . . in a thread about whether the 40k Background is an insult to/parody of religion.

..which is my point...

*shrug* The topic seems legitimate to me. If you are the type of person that doesn't want to analyze the 40k Background as product of the real world, coming out of the minds of people with real prejudices, then that's okay. There's a lot more Dakka for you outside of this thread.

Manchu wrote:*shrug* The topic seems legitimate to me. If you are the type of person that doesn't want to analyze the 40k Background as product of the real world, coming out of the minds of people with real prejudices, then that's okay. There's a lot more Dakka for you outside of this thread.

*Shrug*, I injected no prejudices on the thoughts of religion in this thread. I simply pointed out when others did.

AgeOfEgos wrote:I injected no prejudices on the thoughts of religion in this thread.

I'm certainly not accusing you of doing otherwise.

40k is grimdark, and a very grimdark topic is religious extremists. this and the escued worship of a man make for a less than lovely human culture of the future.

Let me clarify something:

I am not talking about whether or not atheism or theism has any merit. That is truly off-topic.

I am talking about the common points of these sources:

- 40k fluff

- the Black Legend

- Elizabeth: the Golden Age

- The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins

As I see it, there are at least three commonalities here:

(1) They all disparage religion, particularly Catholicism.

(2) This disparagement is in each case based on inadequate understanding/purposeful misunderstanding of religion.

(3) They're all bloody well British!

Is the 40k Background a dig at religion?

YES. It is especially a dig at Catholicism, which comes as no surprise considering that it's authors are British.

There's no denying that the upper echelons of the Catholic Church are corrupt. It's not as bad as it was 500+ years ago, but there are still a lot of problems.

40k draws its inspiration from the darkest corners of the Inquisition and the medieval RMC that manipulated its followers for personal and political gains in the name of God.

@Amaya: No, 40k draws its inspiration from the darkest corners of the British imagination regarding Catholicism.


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Amaya wrote:There's no denying that the upper echelons of the Catholic Church are corrupt. It's not as bad as it was 500+ years ago, but there are still a lot of problems.

What's the point of saying this? And why hasn't Ageof Egos noticed?

I disagree with the notion that attitudes towards religion in 40k writing are particularly anti-Catholic in sentiment. The themes can apply to any Church that has become strongly tied to a governing body-politic. What seems especially Catholic, as opposed to Protestant or Muslim, about the Ecclesiarchy?

Let's just take one tiny example. The "Rosarius" is clearly a play on the concept of rosary beads, Can you think of any similar plays on either Protestant or Muslim religious terms in 40k?

Now let's take another, wider example: religious orders. The SM and Sisters are both modeled on Roman Catholic religious orders. Should we be more specific? How about Black Templars and the Order of Our Martyred Lady? You can also see in the way the Ecclesiarchy venerates saints a rough parody of the Roman Catholic Cult of the Saints (if not the Communion of the Saints).

Finally, we can talk about the language: "High Gothic" is basically some kind of parody of Latin -- a language that is heavily associated with Roman Catholicism and NOT any flavor of Protestantism or Islam. In fact, it is a language that most Protestants protested against from the beginning and Muslims would find simply profane (given that it's not Arabic).

Manchu wrote:Let's just take one tiny example. The "Rosarius" is clearly a play on the concept of rosary beads, Can you think of any similar plays on either Protestant or Muslim religious terms in 40k?

The Rosarius may have a simillar word, but wearing necklaces with religious icons on them is hardly distinctly Catholic. A commonly mentioned mark of religious devotion is making a pilgrimage following a saint's trail for spiritual fulfillment, which is reminiscent of the pilgrimage to Mecca that all Muslims are expected to make once in their lives.

Now let's take another, wider example: religious orders. The SM and Sisters are both modeled on Roman Catholic religious orders. Should we be more specific? How about Black Templars and the Order of Our Martyred Lady? You can also see in the way the Ecclesiarchy venerates saints a rough parody of the Roman Catholic Cult of the Saints (if not the Communion of the Saints).

The Templars are not part of the Ecclesiarchy. Space Marine chapters can be and are modeled on just about every other Warrior-brother-ethos that human history has put forth, so if anything a lack of a reference to crusading knights would be more glaring than its inclusion. Veneration of "Saintly" figures is pretty universal to religions and a couple things that aren't (see the Founding Father fetish at work here in America). Buddhism has a lot of this sort of thing as well.

Finally, we can talk about the language: "High Gothic" is basically some kind of parody of Latin -- a language that is heavily associated with Roman Catholicism and NOT any flavor of Protestantism or Islam.

Latin is also the original language that English is based on. What other short-hand could be used for an older language the current tongue is based on that an English-speaking reader would grasp as instinctively? The idea of an older, more educated language for older, more enlightened times ties with a lot of the themes of decay and deterioration in 40k.

- Wearing a string of beads that have religious significance and are called a Rosarius is an overt reference to the rosary. It's not at all like the concept of a pilgrimage. It's much, much, much more specific.

- It doesn't matter whether SM are part of the Ecclesiarchy or not; they are an organization of (de facto) celibate monks who live together in monasteries, venerating relics of saints, organizing their day-to-day lives in accordance with a holy book, &etc. Other religions may have similar organizations. Only the Catholic faith has organizations like this that are called things like "Templars." Furthermore, the concept of saint is one thing but here we are talking about the word saint (rather than a Hindu or Muslim or Buddhist term) coupled with a more specific understanding of saints that is Catholic rather than Buddhist or Muslim or Hindu or anything else.

- Ancient English is Germanic and not Romantic. Since 1066, English has been half French so, yes, we are familiar with Latin roots. Moreover, Latin's reputation as being a language of education is inextricably tied to its use by the Roman Catholic Church.

You can try to generalize the examples that I've given but you can't seem to deal with how specific they actually are. Yes, there is definitely inspiration outside of anti-Catholicism for the spirituality of 40k. But it is all packaged in very overt anti-Catholic terms and images.

Manchu wrote:- Wearing a string of beads that have religious significance and are called a Rosarius is an overt reference to the rosary. It's not at all like the concept of a pilgrimage. It's much, much, much more specific.

The Rosarius is not portrayed as a string of beads last I saw, but a chain link "Chain of Duty" around the chaplain's neck, with one Icon that contains the force field emitter. 0 beads. There's obviously a simillarity in names, but everything else about them is different. In fact, it' been a long time since Sunday school, but I distinctly remember that wearing a rosary is considered disrespectful, quite the opposite of how a Rosarius is used.

- It doesn't matter whether SM are part of the Ecclesiarchy or not; they are an organization of (de facto) celibate monks who live together in monasteries, venerating relics of saints, organizing their day-to-day lives in accordance with a holy book. Other religions may have similar organizations. Only the Catholic faith has organizations like this that are called things like "Templars." Furthermore, the concept of saint is one thing but here we are talking about the word saint (rather than a Hindu or Muslim or Buddhist term) coupled with a more specific understanding of saints that is Catholic rather than Buddhist or Muslim or Hindu or anything else.

Since the Warhammer background is written in English, they could hardly use any other word. Once again, the Ecclesiarchy has 0 organizations of enhances super warriors with names like "Templar". Beyond that, not all Astartes chapters have the word "Templars" in their name. In fact, none of the first founding legions are Templars. This isn't 3rd edition right after the release of Codex Armageddon anymore. All the home-brew chapters are Something-Wolves, not Something-Templars these days.

- Ancient English is Germanic and not Romantic. Since 1066, English has been half French so, yes, we are familiar with Latin roots. Moreover, Latin's reputation as being a language of education is inextricably tied to its use by the Roman Catholic Church.

That's fascinating, but doesn't counter my point that there are other reasons to pick Latin as the basis for High Gothic than ZOMG GW HATES CATHOLICS.

You can try to generalize the examples that I've given but you can't seem to deal with how specific they actually are. Yes, there is definitely inspiration outside of anti-Catholicism for the spirituality of 40k. But it is all packaged in very overt anti-Catholic terms and images.

Only if you approach the idea of Spiritual authorities having secular power as unique to Catholicism. Joe Guardsman's and Battle-Brother Steve's faith is always shown as a source of strength and perseverance. The veneration of saints, even, is validated by the fact that 40k saints are actually somewhat divine and kick some butt. It's only the high ranking muckity mucks who really get a negative portrayal, and the fanatics that they use as weapons.

Honestly, man, you're missing the forest for the trees.

It's a ROSARIUS. If you weren't supposed to think rosary it would be called ANYTHING else. There is no other reason to call it a Roasrius except to evoke the rosary.

I don't know why you are so keen to point out that the Ecclesiarchy doesn't field units called Templars. It doesn't matter in the slightest to this conversation. The point of this thread is not just that the Ecclesiarchy is a stand-in for the Catholic Church. And if you are so stuck on the Ecclesiarchy then why no comment about Out Martyred Lady? No other religion except Catholicism uses "Our Lady" as a title of veneration, except where people using Catholic analogies have done the translating. Moreover, take a look at the Templars' chapter symbol -- it's a cross. Not a wheel, or the word om, or a guy with a trumpet, or some Arabic script but a CROSS. Specifically, it is a Maltese cross. Aside from evoking the Catholic militant religious orders, there is no other ostensible reason that any SM chapter would use a cross in its heraldry. These are just a few out of many, many specific examples. We haven't even talked about the Inquisition yet -- an institution which is right off the pages of Enlightenment era English texts deriding Catholic Spain.

All the reasons that GW would pick Latin to represent High Gothic are tied back to the Catholic Church's use of Latin throughout medieval Europe. That's the sum of it, my friend.

Finally, Joe Guardsman's faith is one that allows him to cooperate in the galaxy-wide domination of humanity through endless war, genocide, and every form of destruction. Warhammer 40k EXPLICITLY links a religion modeled after Catholicism to the perpetuation of prejudice, violence, and universal misery. If that's not anti-Catholic, then I don't know what is.

Look, I'm not saying that there are no elements that tie back to catholic imagery. Given the big role of the Catholic church in Western civilization, it would be harder to do classical references that don't tie to Catholicism somehow than find a Hollywood movie with people who have never heard of Kevin Bacon. I would like to focus on the point most relevant to the original question imo, because there's something that interests me here.

Finally, Joe Guardsman's faith is one that allows him to cooperate in the galaxy-wide domination of humanity through endless war, genocide, and every form of destruction. Warhammer 40k EXPLICITLY links a religion modeled after Catholicism to the perpetuation of prejudice, violence, and universal misery. If that's not anti-Catholic, then I don't know what is.

We have a fundamental point of view difference here that I find intriguing. When I read 40k, the theme I pick up on most frequently is that the Imperium, as brutal as it is, is necessary for mankind to not go extinct. That without the Inqusiitions and the Crusades and the mistrust of Aliens, humanity would have been Waaghed by the Orks or eaten by Bugs or whatever'd to death millenniums ago. The Tau only really started to fit in to 40k when we started getting hints that the "greater good" was really just a propaganda line and you can't trust the Blue Skins any more than you can trust the Eldar. EVERYTHING is out to kill humanity, and the Joe Guardsmen are what keep the species alive. Thus, if I were to completely give in on the Ecclesiarchy being far more Catholic than Unitarian or Baptist or whatever, we would still have the interesting paradox that you could also say "Warhammer 40k EXPLICITLY links a religion modeled after Catholicism to the survival of humanity in the face of a galaxy full of horror and nightmare. If that's not pro-Catholic, then I don't know what is."

The question is, could mankind survive the 41st millenium without being as brutal and grim-dark as it is? If you think the answer is yes, then yeah everything about the Imperium comes off as excessively horrible, and anything referenced from history is an insult. If not, then before proclaiming the writers to be anti-Catholic you have to consider what is seen positively, negatively, or set dressing and which parts of that are or are not Catholic.

40k is hardly a dig at religion, the entire Imperium turned in on itself and ended up worshiping the one man who abolished it in the first place.

And I really don't think it's anti-Catholic. I mean, most of the fluff has solid basis on western culture, it'd be nearly impossible to not include a Catholic-like church or organization.

The reason the Black Templars have all the similar names are BECAUSE they're based on the Templars of the crusades. Which other chapters use religious iconography? Besides maybe the Word Bearers, all of the founding Legions hardly have any sort of reference to the Catholic Church, bar maybe the use of Angel, but I really wouldn't count that...

Honestly, you're missing the forest for the trees Manchu. Sure, there are TONS of references to the Catholic church in 40k, and some of the grimdark tuning isn't too far from what the Catholic church has done, we have to remember that it's been fit into the 40k universe, it's supposed to be full of prejudice and violence, it's not meant to be tuned as some sort of dig against Catholicism. If it was, then why the hell give it any positive aspects? Unshakable belief in the Emperor is said to be anathema to Daemons, which if I'm not mistaken are universally considered "Bad" and "Evil". While unshakable belief in Catholicism doesn't do nearly as much, if this is a parody/dig on Catholicism then it really depicts it in a positive light, no?

Honestly, I think it's as much an aesthetic matter as anything. A brutal, monolithic church has some wonderful aesthetics, but they're rather tainted when what they preach (daemons and witches conspiring to WHARGLBARGL) is quite blatantly false. Remove the "they're wrong" aspect, and suddenly they become really sort of cool.

The same applies with the rest of the Imperium, and their Fascistic aesthetics and worldview: in a world where what they preach is incoherent gibberish, all their wonderful aesthetics get tainted. So again, remove the "they're wrong and unacceptable" aspect, and you get some wonderful aesthetics to play around with.

Manchu wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:Anyway back to the point, clear links can be seen between between the Jesus and the Emperor, and the Roman Catholic Church with the IoM. Jesus and the Emperor were both free thinkers and brought new ideas to the masses. The Roman Catholic Church and the IoM were both not created by their respective gods, but used to control the masses and justify the present leadership, both are layered with dogma that has replaced the free thinking that their gods wanted. the Roman Catholic Church and the IoM both have had inquisitors, witchhunts, holy wars, crusades etc.

That's certainly one perspective on the Catholic Church: a naive, uninformed, insulting and ultimately ludicrous perspective but a perspective nonetheless. Even so, I am inclined to agree that this is the perspective that GW fluff authors have adopted in satirizing Catholicism through the Ecclesiarchy in the finest British tradition of anti-Catholicism.

It's a completely valid perspective as an outsider. And it could just as easily be applied to any other branch of Christianity, or many other religions.

Insulting religion is always ok. Religion should not be allowed a special 'uninsultable' status above any other belief system (such as Marxism, Veganism or believing in Fairies). All are ways in which people choose to live their life and all are equally open to criticism. It's one area where Dawkins makes a very GOOD point.

Anyway.

I'd suggest that, in modern Britain, there is currently a fine tradition of anti-religiosity, rather than specifically anti-Catholicism. Believe me, the vast majority of the younger generation (by which i mean under 50ish) in Britain are equally critical of all religion. I imagine the reason that the Ecclesiarchy in 40k is seen as more a 'Catholic' analogue than a 'Generic Christian' or 'Generic Religious' one is that the pomp, ceremony and grandness of the Catholic church today provides a much richer source of visual imagery for the artists than the Protestant churches, which are largely devoid of the grand, colourful, devotional celebration. The IoM also references a period of western history (dark ages/medaeval Europe) where the biggest church by far was the Catholic one.

Manchu wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:Well i think alot more anti-catholic feeling in the film came from the fact that they were invading in the name of the pope. The film isn't anti-catholic because it was made in Britain, but because it is an accurate depiction of history.

It takes more than mere dates and names to accurately depict history. In terms of it's script, that movie conforms to an interpretation of history (not coincidentally, an interpretation popular in Britain since the times of Elizabeth I -- it's propaganda after all) that is explicitly anti-Catholic. In terms of it's visual content, the movie is overtly anti-Catholic.

BluntmanDC wrote:Anyway back to the point, clear links can be seen between between the Jesus and the Emperor, and the Roman Catholic Church with the IoM. Jesus and the Emperor were both free thinkers and brought new ideas to the masses. The Roman Catholic Church and the IoM were both not created by their respective gods, but used to control the masses and justify the present leadership, both are layered with dogma that has replaced the free thinking that their gods wanted. the Roman Catholic Church and the IoM both have had inquisitors, witchhunts, holy wars, crusades etc.

That's certainly one perspective on the Catholic Church: a naive, uninformed, insulting and ultimately ludicrous perspective but a perspective nonetheless. Even so, I am inclined to agree that this is the perspective that GW fluff authors have adopted in satirizing Catholicism through the Ecclesiarchy in the finest British tradition of anti-Catholicism.

BluntmanDC wrote:Back when it was first creayed the satire/link was much more obvious to the point that some church-goers actually did complain, but as GW is now an international company and not a garage set up, i think the intentional poking has been replaced by new writers just working within the established framework without an anti-religious agenda.

I agree that GW authors don't really have an agenda, per se. Like every one else, however, they can't help but be influenced by their own personal beliefs and the ideas that are current to their times. I would reiterate that McNeill's Last Church is a fine example of the same muddled thinking that one can find in The God Delusion.

I'm niave? History is taught in Britain from a very neutral standpoint (often showing the failings of our country) unlike the revisionist (and very inaccurate) history lessons in US schools.

So you want all English characters in Elizabethen England to go 'oh well the pope may have ordered this invasion, but on thinking about it he really is a nice guy.' Grow up, just because you don't like the history of your religion doesn't mean it didn't happen.

The Roman Catholic Church at that time was corrupt, can you explain away the Pope that put his dead predicessor on trial, or the pope who had whores act like pigs eating chestnuts on his floor, or the brothels owned by the church, the vast wealth owned by the church (going against the very teachings of Jesus) etc etc

Take your head out of the sand and grow up, you may not like Catholic history, but it did happen.

Manchu wrote:which comes as no surprise considering that it's authors are British.

I see, its not ok for people to question your religions history, but you can be totally prejudiced against a country's people.

moonshine wrote:Ok its not what you gus are talking about but are word beares meant to represent catholics , their homeworld is called catholis coincedence ?

Their homeworld is called Colchis.

Wikipedia wrote:According to the Greek mythology, Colchis was a fabulously wealthy land situated on the mysterious periphery of the heroic world. Here in the sacred grove of the war god Ares, King Aeëtes hung the Golden Fleece until it was seized by Jason and the Argonauts. Colchis was also the land where the mythological Prometheus was punished by being chained to a mountain while an eagle ate at his liver for revealing to humanity the secret of fire.

Medea was from Colchis - a woman who was betrayed by her husband and wanted revenge, which could tie with the Word Bearer's view of being 'betrayed' in their love for the Emperor.

Circe, the witch from the Odessey, was also from Colchis, though since the Word Bearers are hardly the most sorcerous of Legions, this probably isn't the analogy we're looking for!

Manchu wrote:What's the point of saying this? And why hasn't Ageof Egos noticed?

*Shrug*, I had moved on and accepted the fact we disagreed..which is not an uncommon phenomenon in the online world.

But what's more important than what I did do, is what I didn't. For example, making a passive aggressive troll post in hopes to elicit an emotional response.

inquisitorfaust wrote:Given the big role of the Catholic church in Western civilization, it would be harder to do classical references that don't tie to Catholicism somehow than find a Hollywood movie with people who have never heard of Kevin Bacon.

What? Who cares whether it would be hard to avoid references to the Catholic Church when you want to create a "Gothic" setting? It doesn't matter whether or not you "have to" use such references -- what is important is that these references are in themselves degrading to Catholicism. Since you're having trouble seeing that, let's look at something that was said since our last posts:

ArbitorIan wrote:Religion should not be allowed a special 'uninsultable' status above any other belief system (such as Marxism, Veganism or believing in Fairies). All are ways in which people choose to live their life and all are equally open to criticism. It's one area where Dawkins makes a very GOOD point.

So Christian faith is the equivalent of believing in fairies? I don't know if I've ever seen better evidence of the near-total lack of understanding of religion that is so common today -- and, look, it is even specifically sourced to Dawkins in this case.

Richard Dawkins is popular because he has tapped into this overwhelming ignorance. Unlike other atheists (like Daniel Dennett), he has written books that do not require intelligence to read and understand. As I have said, this is because he -- just like his target audience -- does not understand anything at all about religion. It's hard to explain to people how deeply insulting this is. I would never write a book purporting to explain the genetic mechanisms of evolution because I am not at all qualified to do so. And yet Dawkins believes he can write such a book about religion -- with no qualifications at all. This alone should tell you a lot about the extreme hostility (what he disguises as scientific objectivity and neutrality) with which he approaches the topic. This is a(nother) sure sign that his writing on the matter is untrustworthy.

In the United States, we have been exposed to the idea of "political correctness" for quite some time. A lot of people hate this kind of thing -- they feel that it makes a mockery of common sense. But what I have found is that this enforced "political correctness" has helped to open people's eyes (specifically, white males' eyes) about prejudices against women and non-white races that they would have never recognized before because their "common sense" is itself inherently misogynistic and racist.

Similarly, the kind of language being used in this thread to gloss over the many specific references to Catholicism in 40k and the obvious link between those references and a fictional organization that purposefully spreads terror, violence, hatred, and misery demonstrates that the "common sense" among the many in the 40k target audience is itself inherently anti-Catholic specifically and anti-religious more generally.

Now, to return to inquisitorfaust's point:

inquisitorfaust wrote:The question is, could mankind survive the 41st millenium without being as brutal and grim-dark as it is? If you think the answer is yes, then yeah everything about the Imperium comes off as excessively horrible, and anything referenced from history is an insult. If not, then before proclaiming the writers to be anti-Catholic you have to consider what is seen positively, negatively, or set dressing and which parts of that are or are not Catholic.

Look, we can all agree that fascism is bad, right? But in the GrimDark, fascism is necessary for human survival. Does it become less wrong for being necessary? Nope -- that's part of the horror of the 40k setting: we are repulsed by the idea that things that are absolutely wrong in the real world are "necessary" in 40k. Similarly, the presentation of religion as mass ignorance, violence, oppression, &&etc is unequivocally insulting to real world religion and the fact that such a religion is "necessary" within the fictional world itself does not mitigate that insult.


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AgeOfEgos wrote:For example, making a passive aggressive troll post in hopes to elicit an emotional response.

Whoops -- looks like you just did what you were claiming to not do! Anyway, my point was that you were quick to jump on me for ostensibly insulting atheism (I did not) but let an utterly inane and off-topic insult like Amaya's regarding the Catholic Church sail right by.


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Anyway, I refuse to assume the responsibility of unburdening the lot of you from your prejudices. If you won't take the word of a Catholic on these matters, consider that someone who seems pretty a-religious can clearly see what's going on with the 40k background as well:

ArbitorIan wrote:Given the very deliberate dig at the Catholic church present throughout the IoM background, and the fact that this is a game developed in the UK, where the vast majority of the population don't care for religion (of a population of 60 million, only 8% worship regularly), I'd imagine that the dig at religion is VERY intentional on the part of the designers.

Argue with him instead.

You'll find that at lest 70% of the people living in England are sceptical about all faiths, lets face it, we over here have had two civil wars over it (the last one was quite bad, you may have heard about it, it started over a book translated into english and ended with us cutting a kings head off).

We tend not to let religion try and take over our politcical policys, sure its there but its more out of tradition not due to faith (of any kind). Religion and Politcis do not make good bed fellows.

As for the anit-chatholic bit...really? Your basing your argument on one hundred years of 2000 years of history. There was more going on at that time which the Church had a hand in than what probably your history books denote, the mass killing and calling them witch hunts, the sale of places in heaven for killing, attonments on death beds if you give all you worldly goods to the chuch...the Protestants (irionicly it was the Gremans that started it, dam those Lutherans) had had enough of the popery and ideologue , the cheating and swindeling that the church used to blind the simple folk of the land. Why the hell would we have to bend to the will of Rome at that time?

As for the topic subject: Is the background of 40K a dig at religion? It is and its not at the same time, a paradox if you will.

Manchu wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:For example, making a passive aggressive troll post in hopes to elicit an emotional response.

Whoops -- looks like you just did what you were claiming to not do! Anyway, my point was that you were quick to jump on me for ostensibly insulting atheism (I did not) but let an utterly inane and off-topic insult like Amaya's regarding the Catholic Church sail right by.

Anyway, I refuse to assume the responsibility of unburdening the lot of you from your prejudices. If you won't take the word of a Catholic on these matters, consider that someone who seems pretty a-religious can clearly see what's going on with the 40k background as well:

ArbitorIan wrote:Given the very deliberate dig at the Catholic church present throughout the IoM background, and the fact that this is a game developed in the UK, where the vast majority of the population don't care for religion (of a population of 60 million, only 8% worship regularly), I'd imagine that the dig at religion is VERY intentional on the part of the designers.

Argue with him instead.

Pointing out troll posts....is not trolling. It's just calling out poor behavior, which you were displaying.

As I stated before, I've moved and accepted the fact we disagree. You can do that too, I have faith so to speak.

Manchu wrote:Anyway, I refuse to assume the responsibility of unburdening the lot of you from your prejudices. If you won't take the word of a Catholic on these matters....

That genuinely made me lol. Keep up the good fight Manchu, don't let the internets get you down.