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Think about it. During the Great Crusade, the Emperor sought to stamp out beliefs in gods, and led the Imperium into a golden age. Then, another man (Horus) led by gods, tore it asunder, and plunged the Imperium into a dark age, where everyone worships some god or another.
Is it all a metaphor for religion today?

I would say more it's representative of early Christianity's conflict with various polytheistic religions. The Imperium are a monotheistic empire (their believe in the God Emperor is as good as any religion I've ever heard of) and Chaos represent the scattered belief systems of various other Gods that early Christianity faced.

I think it's supposed to be another moral conundrum. You have the imperium, who, for the most part, are religious extremists; and yet you have actual demons, meaning religions weren't all wrong. So, is the imperium really that crazy because of its relgion, or does choas really represent pure evil with demons, validating religion to an extent.

Because 40k has so many writers in the franchise, there is no one correct answer, but overall I think the answer is... kinda but not quite. Some of the recent Horus Heresy stuff and the Emperor's behavior during the Great Crusade straddles the line a lot. Graham McNeil's short story "The Last Church" can lead to an impression of "What if God was real, and loved humanity, but decided Hitchens was on to something and we're really better off without churches?" This sort of embracing faith but mistrustful of churches seems to be the most consistent view of religion in 40k authors. Saint Sabbat is real and guides the Imperium to victory in the Saint Sabbat arc of the Gaunt's Ghosts books. Screaming prayers at them can at least make daemons uncomfortable. But the church itself is full of fallible people like VanDire's reign of blood, or the corrupt cardinal from "Flesh and Iron".

I don't think its based on a religion since the Emperor actually exists in their world

:ducks:

vleermie wrote:I don't think its based on a religion since the Emperor actually exists in their world

:ducks:

I chortled

The emperor before the Heresy said he did not want to be worshipped as a God. At the time most people in the imperium were made uncomfortable around those that did so, to the point where the city Monarchia was destoyed by order of the Emperor because of it's Worship of the Emperor.

The Emperor only became worshipped as a God by the whole IoM after the Lectitio Divinitatus came to power

As has been said though it's hard to say 40K is a dig at religon as so many people have contributed to it differently.

A quote from the horus heresy novels

"Humanity will only be pure when the last brick of the last church falls on the last priest"

Having not read all of the fluff I can only give my general opinion, but as a person of faith I see the 40k universe as more anti-institution than religion. Seeing all of the negatives of the bureaucracy of the IoM as well as the excesses of the Ecclesiarchy while at times in the fluff reading about people who are pretty devout it seems to be a critique of the inhumanity of institutions. Oh sure atheism is definitely a part of that but you can read into the fluff whatever you want. That is my two cents anyway

The Emperor decreed that all Religions be banned and stated that all the suffering and wars of the past were because of religion as stated in the book "The Last Church". The Emperor burned the last church and offered the priest a place at his side, but the priest chose his fate and turned away from the Emperor and walked into the burning church and embraced God. Moral of the 40k story is that man has killed and murdered more people in the name of religion than any other acts of man. So mankind no longer needed religion to lead them into the future.

The Emperor was right really the whole Heresy was caused because Lorgar couldnt let go of his need to believe in a god and worship something he was convinced that humanity needed faith to survive and unite it and im not saying he was wrong in that but he made the mistake of mixing faith with religion. kinda justifying the Emperors whole "religion is bad" stance

I think it's not the background that's an indictment of institutionalized religion, but the 'current' time era that shows it worst. Humanity rising, and accomplishing things while the secular emperor is at the head, and as soon as he is taken out of the picture and the theocracy of the Imperium is established, humanity begins to decline and wane.

Yes parts of it are meant to be satirical.

Well in mechanicum the emporer slays a dragon, suspiciously like s.t george, which would mean the emporer is st george, in the 40k universe at least

moonshine wrote:Well in mechanicum the emporer slays a dragon, suspiciously like s.t george, which would mean the emporer is st george, in the 40k universe at least

S.t George also came from the Middle East (I think, can't quite remember) and the Emperor was born in a region just a touch off centre from the Middle East.

most if not all GW has made is stolen (blatantly in many cases)

If you try hard enough everything is a dig at religion.

Or everything is supportive of religion.

The Emperor obvious fell because he was a man of science and didn't believe in a god.

Xandu most things are stolen nowadays, but thats not the subject.

oh and purplefood, if i recall correctly, it was libya, the same place in mechanicum

Simple answer:

No it isn't. It's just some typical fantasy thing since most fantasy setting have a lot to do with gods and such.

moonshine wrote:Xandu most things are stolen nowadays, but thats not the subject.

oh and purplefood, if i recall correctly, it was libya, the same place in mechanicum

true

I'd say Fantasy is more of a dig at christianity then 40k is

I think it has more to do with people's impulse of clinging to religion when things are hard, and their need to make an understanding if one can't be found.

vleermie wrote:I don't think its based on a religion since the Emperor actually exists in their world

:ducks:

Considering that true, pure faith is actually a very powerful force in 40k? No, I don't think it's a dig at religion.

Well, maybe organized religion. But not religion as a concept.

Melissia wrote:Considering that true, pure faith is actually a very powerful force in 40k? No, I don't think it's a dig at religion.

Well, maybe organized religion. But not religion as a concept.

I consider one of the defining differences between religion and faith is that religion is a public, organized set of beliefs to be adhered to...while faith is simply a very confident belief in something/someone/something.

That said, I think 40k's focus is more on the negative consequences of dogma, not so much specifically religion. Dogmatic following of Imperial law for example is often shown to have rather negative effects as well, stifling technology and creative thought. Religion just inherently happens to have a hell of a lot of dogma...so naturally it pops up. Now, sure there are Dark Age/Enlightenment references found with the Emperor's coming....but their writers are all over the place...so *shrug*.

Actually, oddly enough the Ecclesiarchy is one of the few erasons that the art world thrives in 40k. Sure, most serious art is religious art but at least it's there instead of brutally oppressed and ignored.

Hisotrically, religous groups have always nurtured art, as it was used to express certain stories. This is best seen in the dark ages and the renaissance.

Melissia wrote:Actually, oddly enough the Ecclesiarchy is one of the few erasons that the art world thrives in 40k. Sure, most serious art is religious art but at least it's there instead of brutally oppressed and ignored.

There's an argument for the ages; Would Beethoven have been Beethoven without his faith.....would Michelangelo have given us the Sistine Chapel without religion... . I've watched Hitchens debate that subject many times and he always says "Well, if your an artist...you go where the money is or starve...and the church tends to have a bit of money thanks to fleecing the sheep..."

Anyways, not a subject for here I suppose (and I have no definitive thought on it one way or another) .

I think it is a dig at The Church as the ecclesiarchy is often portrayed as a shadey, sometimes crazy, often politically motivated bureaucracy that encourages absolute faith. Toss in a bit of 'under pain of death' medieval style brutality, because everyone knows christians are all good people nowadays...

This is not a dig at any specific religion, or faith in general, but maybe at the way it may be practiced. I think that Horus as Satan and the Emprah as God and Sanguinous as Michael or something similar you could I guess say it is a pretty skewey stretch of a parallel, but there's a lot of non-christian based motifs thrown in too (Thorjac and Loki the trickster? Orks believing something so therefore it must be true?) showing that maybe all religious traditions can be turned into some kind of sci-fi fantasy mockery. I dont think it is meant as a bash against it, it just uses it, along with all sorts of other cultural mishmash, to create a 'universe' with some similarity to the themes we see in our real world beliefs (or disbeliefs).

Religion and science, they do not coexist. 40K is science-fiction, which makes it besed loosely on science, which doesn't coincide with religion. So yes, it's a dig on religion.

Melissia wrote:Considering that true, pure faith is actually a very powerful force in 40k? No, I don't think it's a dig at religion.

Well, maybe organized religion. But not religion as a concept.

I would not describe the Imperium's religion as a positive force.

ToBeWilly wrote:Religion and science, they do not coexist. 40K is science-fiction, which makes it besed loosely on science, which doesn't coincide with religion. So yes, it's a dig on religion.

40K is what is generally referred to as "Science Fantasy" or "Space Fantasy." It is in no way, shape, or form Sci-Fi. Case in point: mutants with magical space magics, space elfs with magical space magics, magical space daemons, space orcs with magical space magics born of stupidity, the general abundance of magical space magics...

Sci-fi more or less requires at least some token technobabble, or implied technobabble, rather than just "A wizard The Emperor did it."


The fluff heavily implies that beings with a warp presence can alter reality simply by believing something hard enough. Orks's technology runs off this: their minds are too simple for even a shred of doubt, and as a result reality warps to conform to their beliefs. The same thing is observed in the most fanatic servants of the Ecclesiarchy when they work themselves into it: believing that "the Emperor" will guide their bullets, protect them from harm, etc. so hard that for a few moments there's not even a shred of doubt in their minds, and so reality warps to humor them while it lasts. It would appear Daemons are even more susceptible to this, being injured by litanies and holy objects, which makes sense when one considers they are part of the warp, which is highly susceptible to the emotions of beings with a warp presence.