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The Tyranids having no soul and being a big blanket of bugs is a recent thing. Back when they were introduced even their guns had some sort of sentience.

Making them a swarm of locusts was the dumbest thing GW has done with the Nids. They lost some spunk when they did that....I liked the idea of intelligent Nids ala Aliens....

Ultramarines really don't have plot armour against Tyranids if you look at what they really lost against them.

Sure, other chapters have been completely wiped out by them, but they didn't have an entire segmentum of Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy and Titan Legions backing them up like the Ultramarines did.

Not to mention that while Marneus Calgar managed to strangle a Avatar to death, he was just about killed by the Swarmlord, only saved by his Honour Guard. They may have plot armour, but it's pretty weak against the Nids.

-Loki- wrote:Ultramarines really don't have plot armour against Tyranids if you look at what they really lost against them.

Sure, other chapters have been completely wiped out by them, but they didn't have an entire segmentum of Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy and Titan Legions backing them up like the Ultramarines did.

Not to mention that while Marneus Calgar managed to strangle a Avatar to death, he was just about killed by the Swarmlord, only saved by his Honour Guard. They may have plot armour, but it's pretty weak against the Nids.

Plot armor saved 4th company from complete annihalation and allowed 4 marines to go deep into the heart of a hive ship and infect the queen, I have to say ill take plot armor over terminator armor any day

The smurfs are a single chapter out of one thousand. Space marines as a whole are outnumbered billions to one by the Guard, and many thousands to one by the Guard's main battle tanks. If I recall correctly, there are more Titans on Mars alone than there are Space Marines in all. That fewer than a thousand space marines managed to bring down a Hive Fleet, and then in their damaged state brought down a bigger one, says something about the Tyranids strength. Sure, there might be a deus ex machina to the tune of "oh, there are actually millions of fleets of the magical space locusts, lololololol I troll u," I don't see that as particularly likely, not least of which because I'm sure the authors of the fluff really just don't grasp the scale of what they're writing about, and so think the current Hive Fleet battles have been narrow, pyrrhic victories, instead of the minor skirmishes they amount to.

Yes, battles against the Tyranids tend to end badly for those doing the fighting, but at the same time, they amount to only the smallest, most insignificant fraction of the total forces arrayed against them. To put it in perspective, if the Imperium is the United States, the whole of the Tyranids' action so far is like a bear mauling a hunter in the middle of nowhere, and then getting its head blown off by his buddies. Yeah, it sucks for the guy that got torn to shreds by the bear, but he's an irrelevant fragment of the population as a whole, and the bear suffered just as bad (and there are fewer bears, after all).

Veldrain wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:A single space marine chapter brought down one, with mild casualties. Then went and brought down the most destructive fleet to have yet appeared, with only minor reinforcements.

The Ultramarines lost their entire veteran company, nearly all of that equipment (including their Terminator armour), not to mention the Space Marines from other companies that defended the polar defenses. They lost a huge amount of the entire sectors Imperial Guard Auxillery forces, and a huge amount of the Ultima Segmentums fleet. Behemoth was beaten, but the Ultramarines, and the Ultima Segmentum as a whole, hardly suffered mild casualties. They still haven't recovered from them.

Dont forget there were a decent number of titans playing around.

Also, being the first Imperial organisation that defeats a tyranid tendril, our brother chapter ultramarines suffered a lot yes, not known ones are, they get in a position that loosing 2/4 of their geneseed, though only after re-processed the holy relics of the Empror and Chapter, they again recovered their original amounts.

and when Captain Invictus, The Company's first copany ( The corinthian Crushade Veterans) Captain and all his experienced battle brothers, the veterans died in the First Tyrannic war, they adamged the Tendril Forces in unvaliable numbers, that even the hive tyrant itself screamed and teared the synapses of nids they say.

The veterans died on that day, still mourned by the brother chapter, and they never forgot the eternal sacrifice of the Invictus and his squad of honoured veterans. Because of their Last Stand against the foul xenos, because of that delay and unbelievable casualities the tendril gives, Marneus Calgar and Chapter gained victory in orbit.

Do not underestimate the mighty power of the Emperor. Because The Emperor Protects.

Adeo morti servus imperator fictu!! Ave dominus nox!

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Lord Solar Awesome wrote:The fluff says that they have eaten many galaxies before and that we're just another one on the list. Do you think that our galaxy has put up the best fight so far? And do you think that we are the most diverse galaxy they have come across? Or do you think we're just another yummy morsel for the hive fleet?

You have to remember that the Tyranids' own codex contains little more than a long string of "And Hive Fleet X was obliterated at great cost to a fleet comprised of [proceeds to list only the smallest and most token fragment of the respective races forces]." A single space marine chapter brought down one, with mild casualties. Then went and brought down the most destructive fleet to have yet appeared, with only minor reinforcements. A small Eldar expedition hunted down and destroyed a hive fleet that was outside of Imperial space. A single craftworld managed to weather a hivefleet relatively unscathed. A ramshackle flotilla comprised of conscripted merchant freighters led by a handful of warships from two Imperial worlds destroyed yet another, with a good fragment of the flotilla coming through intact. Even the Tau, with their inconsequentially small military, have managed to take out splinter fleets. Only the smallest fragments of the Imperium suffer from the Tyranids, and in doing so they obliterate entire Hive Fleets in return.

Since the Tyranids practically define "failure," even more than Abaddon does, I have a very hard time believing that they've consumed more than their home galaxy (if even that, they could well have left it with their tails between their legs if there was anything able to so much as raise a gun sharing it with them), unless there's been nothing more dangerous than some particularly fierce rabbits inhabiting those galaxies.

So, the next Tyranid codex should be the hive fleet conquering the galaxy and finnaly eating everyone? Yes, that is good for GW sales.
Same with black crusades, they finnaly overthrow the Imperium and they win. GW is always going to make this universe in a constant stalemate. It's a money thing, Thats like saying the Imperium sucks cuz chaos is still around and all the other races haven't bowed down to the Emperor......

xXSir MontyXx wrote:
GW is always going to make this universe in a constant stalemate. It's a money thing, Thats like saying the Imperium sucks cuz chaos is still around and all the other races haven't bowed down to the Emperor......

I call shenanigans on this logic, both races of eldar and the Tau arent really much of a competition to the other great powers in the galaxy(I expect flak from Eldar and tau fanboys)

Dark Eldar are less interested in power struggles than ensuring that there will always be a steady supply of fresh souls flowing into Comorragh. They aren't interested in the conquest of planets or empires; only the satisfaction of their own thirsts and desires.

Ultramarines and the oh so mighty 'tactical genius' of calgar.... such a joke.... Anyone who refuses to adapt their tactics because they are too mired in dogma in tradition deserves to be anhiliated. Unless the Imperium of man gets a serious wake up call soon they will be destroyed, tyranids or no. The need tofree themselves from their suspicious dogma and form a progressive society that is ready to adapt and move forward they are doomed to fail and be defeated by more progressive and adaptive races.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Lord Solar Awesome wrote:The fluff says that they have eaten many galaxies before and that we're just another one on the list. Do you think that our galaxy has put up the best fight so far? And do you think that we are the most diverse galaxy they have come across? Or do you think we're just another yummy morsel for the hive fleet?

You have to remember that the Tyranids' own codex contains little more than a long string of "And Hive Fleet X was obliterated at great cost to a fleet comprised of [proceeds to list only the smallest and most token fragment of the respective races forces]." A single space marine chapter brought down one, with mild casualties. Then went and brought down the most destructive fleet to have yet appeared, with only minor reinforcements. A small Eldar expedition hunted down and destroyed a hive fleet that was outside of Imperial space. A single craftworld managed to weather a hivefleet relatively unscathed. A ramshackle flotilla comprised of conscripted merchant freighters led by a handful of warships from two Imperial worlds destroyed yet another, with a good fragment of the flotilla coming through intact. Even the Tau, with their inconsequentially small military, have managed to take out splinter fleets. Only the smallest fragments of the Imperium suffer from the Tyranids, and in doing so they obliterate entire Hive Fleets in return.

Since the Tyranids practically define "failure," even more than Abaddon does, I have a very hard time believing that they've consumed more than their home galaxy (if even that, they could well have left it with their tails between their legs if there was anything able to so much as raise a gun sharing it with them), unless there's been nothing more dangerous than some particularly fierce rabbits inhabiting those galaxies.

So, the next Tyranid codex should be the hive fleet conquering the galaxy and finnaly eating everyone? Yes, that is good for GW sales.
Same with black crusades, they finnaly overthrow the Imperium and they win. GW is always going to make this universe in a constant stalemate. It's a money thing, Thats like saying the Imperium sucks cuz chaos is still around and all the other races haven't bowed down to the Emperor......

The thing I'm saying is it's not a stalemate: to the Imperium as a whole the Tyranids are as insignificant as a particularly vicious bear is to the United States. That goes for just about every dedicated "threat" to the Imperium: the whole of the surviving traitor legions, even if they could be gathered under one banner, couldn't take the Cadian gate; Orks aren't going anywhere anytime soon, but their whole power structure rests on a thread at the best of times, with the death of the warboss leading to the collapse of even the biggest Waaugh; the daemonic side of chaos is trapped in the warp, and most daemons would appear disinterested in entering the materium, if the daemon from Eisenhorn is any indication; the Tau are advanced, but so small as to be completely irrelevant; the Craftworld Eldar aren't interested in fighting the Imperium, since it often does their dirty work for them; the Dark Eldar aren't interested in fighting the Imperium because they have nothing to gain from it, and can just prey on isolated Imperial worlds, or manipulate Imperial forces into doing their dirty work for them; only the Necrons seem to pose a genuine threat, and even their tomb worlds can be blown away with cyclonic torpedoes.

Individual skirmishes might be brutal (and interesting), but in the overall scale of things, the Imperium dwarfs everything else, and can't be truly threatened by many things (so long as it continues fighting perceived threats, obviously; it is in a constant struggle, just one it easily wins in the grand scheme of things)

I get what you're saying, but it would be cool if you could come up with some quoted references. Because all of the references from the Imperiums side in the Tyranid codex state that while they've beaten back some fleets, they're still an extremely dangerous threat - a threat the galaxy will need to unite against. Which will never happen.

Aside from the ones that have just appeared, and haven't actually done anything yet, all the other fleets mentioned have been destroyed, and the description of the forces which destroyed them are of only the smallest and most insignificant fleets or armies. I would be willing to believe the author thought that those were actually large forces, and that the losses they suffered actually meant anything, but we must remember that Sci-fi Writers Have No Sense of Scale, and when one considers the rest of the Imperial fluff, even though it purports to describe a weak, thinly stretched state crippled by its own inertia and internal division, what it then goes on to describe doesn't match that. From this we can take all "oh noes society is crumbling the end is nigh!" doomsaying as just as valid as comparable real-world cries, which have been going on as long as there has been society to allegedly crumble, and are quite obviously not valid in the least.

It seems like the crux of this argument centres around the perceived scale of the 40k universe, something which you rightly point out is not well/easily represented in fiction.
The implied scale of the galaxy in this fictional universe, compared to the actual size required of the imperium to stake a claim in controlling the galaxy in a real sense is indeed larger than the fluff would indicate.

However this same sense of scale can also be applied to a species that has purportedly travelled the even greater distance between galaxies, being several orders of magnitude larger than the galaxy itself. Claiming that said splinter fleets are then somehow too small to represent a threat by discounting the possibilty of a larger wave of reinforcements behind it ignores the probably huge logistical nightmare that crossing intergalactic space must require. If the tyranids have indeed crossed this huge distance, using biotech rather than warp travel, the subsequent size of the fleet simply to provide the energy to sustain iteself precludes the idea that they could do so in such small numbers.

Therefore I consider it to be an unfair argument to dismiss the tyranids as a relatively weak force in the galaxy based on the misrepresented actual scale of the imperium, whilst ignoring the potentially misrepresented scale of the tyranid race as a whole.

The galaxy may get away with not having to unite against a 'large' tyranid invasion as the different races (tau & IoM are two i have in mind) would most likely form a 'temporary' alliance to hold back a large scale attack, then return to fighting each other.
As if we were to look at the fluff in a common sense frame of mind, the hive mind would attack from beneath the galactiv plane (not sure on terminology there) and head striaght towards Terra would it not? Thats assuming the hive mind is as strategically astute as we make out?

Dan

I think it mentions in the most recent 5e nid fluff that they are indeed attacking (or starting to) from below the galactic plane, but they haven't reached terra. Yet. * dun dun durrrrrrrrr*

-Loki- wrote:I get what you're saying, but it would be cool if you could come up with some quoted references. Because all of the references from the Imperiums side in the Tyranid codex state that while they've beaten back some fleets, they're still an extremely dangerous threat - a threat the galaxy will need to unite against. Which will never happen.

This is very true and I didn't even think about it.

Alder Garrick "I think we can be assured that the Norn Queens will continue to work tirelessly towards more and more perfectly adapted for killing the inhabitants of this galaxy just as they have in others before ours. Simply put, over the coming centuries we may be out-evolved to the point of extinction." Codex: Tyranids (4th Edition), page 5

Chaplain Cassius of the Ultramarines "We must scour them from the stars before they do the same to us." Codex: Tyranids (4th Edition), page 43

There is also another that says the current strength of the Imperium must be increased by a large percentage and ever man woman and child has to fight as well. I dont remember the specifics...... sorry im sure someone will post it up for me. ANYWAYS, it seems like the imperium is more worried about the Tyranids than you are.

Reanimator wrote:It seems like the crux of this argument centres around the perceived scale of the 40k universe, something which you rightly point out is not well/easily represented in fiction.
The implied scale of the galaxy in this fictional universe, compared to the actual size required of the imperium to stake a claim in controlling the galaxy in a real sense is indeed larger than the fluff would indicate.

However this same sense of scale can also be applied to a species that has purportedly travelled the even greater distance between galaxies, being several orders of magnitude larger than the galaxy itself. Claiming that said splinter fleets are then somehow too small to represent a threat by discounting the possibilty of a larger wave of reinforcements behind it ignores the probably huge logistical nightmare that crossing intergalactic space must require. If the tyranids have indeed crossed this huge distance, using biotech rather than warp travel, the subsequent size of the fleet simply to provide the energy to sustain iteself precludes the idea that they could do so in such small numbers.

Therefore I consider it to be an unfair argument to dismiss the tyranids as a relatively weak force in the galaxy based on the misrepresented actual scale of the imperium, whilst ignoring the potentially misrepresented scale of the tyranid race as a whole.

I'll concede the point that we don't know anything at all about the tyranids beyond those that have already entered the galaxy. They may have massive numbers, having consumed entire galaxies before, or they may be scattered refugees fleeing their home galaxy because whatever else inhabited it was too much for them to overcome. They may come in a massive tide, overwhelming the Imperium, or they may filter in piecemeal as they've been doing, being picked off by relatively small patrols. Genestealers and (some) deathworlds are tyranid in origin, meaning they've already been to the galaxy millenia before. For all we know they may be local xenos from the fringes of the galaxy, who've only now started to "bloom" (in the jellyfish or algal bloom sense) en masse.

Honestly though, I think it's safe to say that were the Tyranid invasion ever to theoretically come to a climax, the "gigantic force that's like, really big and stuff" that defeats it "but at such cost the Imperium will never ever recover because it's such a huge blow" will be something like a dozen space marine chapters, of which half are destroyed entirely. Maybe a few dozen regiments of guard, with a titan or two for good measure. And totally "like a few thousand ships or something big like that." You know it's (sadly) true...

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

-Loki- wrote:I get what you're saying, but it would be cool if you could come up with some quoted references. Because all of the references from the Imperiums side in the Tyranid codex state that while they've beaten back some fleets, they're still an extremely dangerous threat - a threat the galaxy will need to unite against. Which will never happen.

This is very true and I didn't even think about it.

Alder Garrick "I think we can be assured that the Norn Queens will continue to work tirelessly towards more and more perfectly adapted for killing the inhabitants of this galaxy just as they have in others before ours. Simply put, over the coming centuries we may be out-evolved to the point of extinction." Codex: Tyranids (4th Edition), page 5

Chaplain Cassius of the Ultramarines "We must scour them from the stars before they do the same to us." Codex: Tyranids (4th Edition), page 43

There is also another that says the current strength of the Imperium must be increased by a large percentage and ever man woman and child has to fight as well. I dont remember the specifics...... sorry im sure someone will post it up for me. ANYWAYS, it seems like the imperium is more worried about the Tyranids than you are.

That's precisely the kind of doomsaying I'm talking about. The fluff is as full of it as the real world has been for all of recorded history, and in neither case does it really hold water. Yes, there are all sorts of ominous quotes about the tyranids, and yes, the forces that get sent against them suffer greatly. It makes sense for those either facing them, or well informed about them, to be frightened of them. But in the end, the Imperium is incomprehensibly vast, with a massive, well equipped, generally competent and well trained military (when you don't have an author playing up the grimdark to narmtastic levels). Not to mention its favorite power armored freaks, and legions of titans.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Honestly though, I think it's safe to say that were the Tyranid invasion ever to theoretically come to a climax, the "gigantic force that's like, really big and stuff" that defeats it "but at such cost the Imperium will never ever recover because it's such a huge blow" will be something like a dozen space marine chapters, of which half are destroyed entirely. Maybe a few dozen regiments of guard, with a titan or two for good measure. And totally "like a few thousand ships or something big like that." You know it's (sadly) true...

We may have to agree to disagree on that one. Being more a nid fan than an imperium fan, I'm rooting for the space bugs. However it is in essence one unknown quantity vs another and its only going to be speculation is to who would actually win. Don't get me wrong, I like speculating, I'm sure its the point of threads like this, I just lament the point at which I have to concede the GW will never finish telling the story of the 40k universe so I can get some closure!

Of course the hobby would probably suffer as a result if they ever truly tried to end the conflict in a significant way (Lots of angry fanboys annoyed that their side didn't win).

Dont discount that, yes the imperium/mechanicus have titans, so do the tyranids.
I think the victor of the war would depend on the speed and location of the main tyranid invasion.

Dan

D.Smith wrote:Dont discount that, yes the imperium/mechanicus have titans, so do the tyranids.
I think the victor of the war would depend on the speed and location of the main tyranid invasion.

Dan

and also depends on the reaction time of the imperium..
But be sure, THe Emperor Protects...

Reanimator wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Honestly though, I think it's safe to say that were the Tyranid invasion ever to theoretically come to a climax, the "gigantic force that's like, really big and stuff" that defeats it "but at such cost the Imperium will never ever recover because it's such a huge blow" will be something like a dozen space marine chapters, of which half are destroyed entirely. Maybe a few dozen regiments of guard, with a titan or two for good measure. And totally "like a few thousand ships or something big like that." You know it's (sadly) true...

We may have to agree to disagree on that one. Being more a nid fan than an imperium fan, I'm rooting for the space bugs. However it is in essence one unknown quantity vs another and its only going to be speculation is to who would actually win. Don't get me wrong, I like speculating, I'm sure its the point of threads like this, I just lament the point at which I have to concede the GW will never finish telling the story of the 40k universe so I can get some closure!

Of course the hobby would probably suffer as a result if they ever truly tried to end the conflict in a significant way (Lots of angry fanboys annoyed that their side didn't win).

I was mocking the authors with the suggestion that they'd think that was a suitably large force for a climactic battle.

Ah, apologies, fair comment then. And yes, *sigh* thats probably true.

Yeah, I don't have as high of an opinion about the Hive Mind's ability to do tactics. Or evolve, for that matter. Orks alone are probably more deadly and destructive than anything Tyranids have ever faced before, nevermind adding in Tau, Eldar, Humans, or Necrons.

Melissia wrote:Yeah, I don't have as high of an opinion about the Hive Mind's ability to do tactics. Or evolve, for that matter. Orks alone are probably more deadly and destructive than anything Tyranids have ever faced before, nevermind adding in Tau, Eldar, Humans, or Necrons.

Do you not think that might be bit extreme considering they nearly cleaned the ultramarines off the face of the galaxy? I know 'nearly' is the key word.
But look at the other races in 40k, if you were to look at the 40k universe there are endless tactical decisions in the fluff that make us think the commanding people/creatures are thick.
And part of the genious of 40k is allowing us to pick our favourite race to put our money on for winning imo, i'll admit i love nids, and the fluff lets me justify having a beleif that in the fictional universe, they would win.
However if you like orks you can justify their point to win, each race has their own potential to wipe the others out since the fluff hasnt really 'progressed' a great deal.


Dan

D.Smith wrote:Do you not think that might be bit extreme considering they nearly cleaned the ultramarines off the face of the galaxy?

Only a smurf could make tyranids look like Creed.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

D.Smith wrote:Do you not think that might be bit extreme considering they nearly cleaned the ultramarines off the face of the galaxy?

Only a smurf could make tyranids look like Creed.

That's great!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sad day you have to click on the gif to make it work

I've always thought when I've been reading the Codex(es?) that the Tyranids are constantly coming in to the galaxy from other galaxys and that there's plenty more that just haven't arrived yet.

The Leviathan Fleet coming in from a completely different direction makes me think that the Tyranids are much more numerous than people have been guessing at and we've only seen a small percentage.

I also think that they are spread out so they'll never really be in completely overwhelming numbers

The first waves have been destroyed yes. But there's plenty more left to come, ensuring Nids will always be around to cause problems

At least until astronomican grows sufficently dim enough to stop attracting them. (Although now the Hive Mind knows there's food in that galaxy I don't know if that'll matter)

Plus the Hive Mind isn't stupid though. It's seen what the Milky Way is like. If it was a lost cause wouldn't they aim somewhere else?

D.Smith wrote:Do you not think that might be bit extreme considering they nearly cleaned the ultramarines off the face of the galaxy? I know 'nearly' is the key word.

No, just their first company. Ten to fifteen percent losses is pretty light for a major climactic battle.

D.Smith wrote:Dont discount that, yes the imperium/mechanicus have titans, so do the tyranids.
I think the victor of the war would depend on the speed and location of the main tyranid invasion.

Dan

Then the tyranids don't stand a chance. They are significantly slower than the imperium and are attacking the center of their power, Holy Terra itself.

I could imagine the Imperium being able to lose and rebuild entire fleets, legions of titans and the entirety of the space marine chapters in between tyranid waves.

I doubt the nids are the ultimate threat to the galaxy, orks slapp em all over and even the tau gave em a clip round ear lol. The IoM hold out against em fine and the eldar kill em when they can, with the power of every race in 40k (bar crons cuz there al asleep 90% of the time and the DE being utter cowards lol) they dont stand a chance.

I think the galaxy they left was were they were created or were the hive mind is and there was very little there to threaten them.

I do think the hive mind is like a planet sized thing that has become completly self sufficent and uses up so much of its power to control the hive that it is incapable of movment or (my fav idea) that nids are the ultimate bio weapon created to destry all life but who ever made em lost control died and now there off on there merry munching mission lol.

Wardragoon wrote:all kidding aside I do have to agree the hive fleets are just cannon fodder testing weaknesses until the big/original fleet hits, at that time I think humanity will be in a sorry(er)state, especially considering the Hive Mind is drawn to the astronomicon like a moth to fire, but then again the ultrasmurfs will be there, so I take that back, plot armor covered ultramarines will win the day

Seconded