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Scrabb wrote:

D.Smith wrote:Dont discount that, yes the imperium/mechanicus have titans, so do the tyranids.
I think the victor of the war would depend on the speed and location of the main tyranid invasion.

Dan

Then the tyranids don't stand a chance. They are significantly slower than the imperium and are attacking the center of their power, Holy Terra itself.

I could imagine the Imperium being able to lose and rebuild entire fleets, legions of titans and the entirety of the space marine chapters in between tyranid waves.

Space marines take incredibly long times to produce, and titans are almost ereplaceable.

Mr Nobody wrote:

Scrabb wrote:

D.Smith wrote:Dont discount that, yes the imperium/mechanicus have titans, so do the tyranids.
I think the victor of the war would depend on the speed and location of the main tyranid invasion.

Dan

Then the tyranids don't stand a chance. They are significantly slower than the imperium and are attacking the center of their power, Holy Terra itself.

I could imagine the Imperium being able to lose and rebuild entire fleets, legions of titans and the entirety of the space marine chapters in between tyranid waves.

Space marines take incredibly long times to produce, and titans are almost ereplaceable.

How long does it take to make a space marine out of a man? A hundred years? As for the titans, if they still have the templates for them they could make at least as many of them as they do battleships, which is actually a lot. If they're literally not replaceable than I stand corrected. I guess they'll just have to supplement with more fleet power.

gloomygrim wrote:I do think the hive mind is like a planet sized thing that has become completly self sufficent and uses up so much of its power to control the hive that it is incapable of movment

Then you odn't understand the fluff at all. The hive mind is a psychic presence in the warp, the actual physical part of it is the whole Tyranid race. The hive mind is the Tyranid race, and the Tyranid race is the hive mind.

-Loki- wrote:

gloomygrim wrote:I do think the hive mind is like a planet sized thing that has become completly self sufficent and uses up so much of its power to control the hive that it is incapable of movment

Then you odn't understand the fluff at all. The hive mind is a psychic presence in the warp, the actual physical part of it is the whole Tyranid race. The hive mind is the Tyranid race, and the Tyranid race is the hive mind.

It may be in the warp but that dosnt mean it cant have a physical manifestation in reality or be aphysical being in the warp, fluff is all open to interpritation specially were there is no or little history of a race or creature.

gloomygrim wrote:
It may be in the warp but that dosnt mean it cant have a physical manifestation in reality or be aphysical being in the warp, fluff is all open to interpritation specially were there is no or little history of a race or creature.

Your idea is about as far out of left field as the Emperor being an eldar farseer who stole a strong human's body and used it as a focus to guide mankind. IMHO

I'm glad you've made the fluff your own but, again IMHO, that idea is contradictory to what we have to work with.

Scrabb wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:

Scrabb wrote:

D.Smith wrote:Dont discount that, yes the imperium/mechanicus have titans, so do the tyranids.
I think the victor of the war would depend on the speed and location of the main tyranid invasion.

Dan

Then the tyranids don't stand a chance. They are significantly slower than the imperium and are attacking the center of their power, Holy Terra itself.

I could imagine the Imperium being able to lose and rebuild entire fleets, legions of titans and the entirety of the space marine chapters in between tyranid waves.

Space marines take incredibly long times to produce, and titans are almost ereplaceable.

How long does it take to make a space marine out of a man? A hundred years? As for the titans, if they still have the templates for them they could make at least as many of them as they do battleships, which is actually a lot. If they're literally not replaceable than I stand corrected. I guess they'll just have to supplement with more fleet power.

Not really irreplaceable..... but they arent as good as the original. The knowledge of producing tech is degrading cuz the Imperium is afraid of skynet happening again.

Despite being a space bug fan, I'm inclined to think that the iom could probably muster enough military strength to singularly defend itself from the full onslaught of any other single attacker, nid or otherwise. However it's when you get all the other races involved that it gets messy.

I'm all for a bit of my team could beat your team banter, but it seems reasonable that gw have skewed the fluff so that one side isn't unfathomably capable of beating any one of the others. *ducks for fanboy backlash*

Ergo any hasty dismissals of another races capabilty strike me as a little rude, or at least inconsiderate.

gloomygrim wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

gloomygrim wrote:I do think the hive mind is like a planet sized thing that has become completly self sufficent and uses up so much of its power to control the hive that it is incapable of movment

Then you odn't understand the fluff at all. The hive mind is a psychic presence in the warp, the actual physical part of it is the whole Tyranid race. The hive mind is the Tyranid race, and the Tyranid race is the hive mind.

It may be in the warp but that dosnt mean it cant have a physical manifestation in reality or be aphysical being in the warp, fluff is all open to interpritation specially were there is no or little history of a race or creature.

It does have a physical representation. You don't need to make one up. It's the Tyranid race.

yevix wrote:also there was a picture (lost it) where a whole hive fleet simply ignored 1 world (looked like a deathstar) in my eyes that was a necron world and nids simply dont care for them - if the nids were a creation of the old ones wouldn't they attack necrons at first sight

No...Tyranids tend to avoid Necrons because they can't gather biomass because they are inorganic. It's a fruitless battle, so they tend to go out of their way to avoid any and all fights with the Necrons.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Since the Tyranids practically define "failure," even more than Abaddon does, I have a very hard time believing that they've consumed more than their home galaxy (if even that, they could well have left it with their tails between their legs if there was anything able to so much as raise a gun sharing it with them), unless there's been nothing more dangerous than some particularly fierce rabbits inhabiting those galaxies.

Behemoth devoured hundreds of planets before beings stopped, not to mention eating the entire Ultramarines 1st company and almost killing Marneus Calgar. Naga ate countless worlds and wiped out an entire Eldar Craftworld. Kraken caused alot of political chaos with the Inquisition trying to root out heretics that were found to be genestealer cultists from Kraken, not to mention putting the Iyanden Craftworld on the brink of extinction. The Imperium, Tau, and Eldar are all making their best effort to stop Leviathan, but it's not skipping a beat. So...

- Ate Thousands of Planets
- Ate an Eldar Craftworld
- Caused the unjust imprisonment of millions of Imperial citizens.
- Almost killed Calgar
- Put Iyanden on the brink of extinction
- Its most recent hive fleet has thus-far proved unstoppable

Explain to me how they are a failure?

Also, a key feature of the Tyranid race is their ability to evolve. When Behemoth fought the Ultramarines they had no idea what they were up against. This is why Kraken was even nastier than Behemoth and Leviathan is even nastier than Kraken. When and if Leviathan is destroyed, the next fleet will be worse. If that one is destroyed, the next one will be worse. They'll keep getting harder and harder to stop until they've evolved to the point where no-one can stop them. Because every time a Hive Fleet is destroyed, the Hive Mind produces new Fleets that have fixed the problems that were the downfall of the previous Fleet.

Also, note, something that is heavily emphasized is that the Tyranids we have seen are more than likely only a very small percentage of the Tyranids that exist in the universe. We've only seen a tiny fraction of what the Hive Fleet has in store for our yummy, yummy universe.

Abadabadoobadon has nothing on the Nids.

gloomygrim wrote:
It may be in the warp but that dosnt mean it cant have a physical manifestation in reality or be aphysical being in the warp, fluff is all open to interpritation specially were there is no or little history of a race or creature.

No. The Hive Mind is not a physical thing. The Hive Mind is like a brain, the Tyranids are like the countless brain cells that make up that brain, all connected to form a giant conciousness.

Darth Bob wrote:- Ate Thousands of Planets

Puts them above tau and both flavors of eldar in current direct force damage.

Darth Bob wrote:- Ate an Eldar Craftworld

Impressive. A triumph of the Hive Mind interfering with the Farseers no doubt.

Darth Bob wrote:- Caused the unjust imprisonment of millions of Imperial citizens.

Rounding error. Inquisitor got up on the wrong side ofthe bed.

Darth Bob wrote:- Almost killed Calgar

insignificant.

Darth Bob wrote:- Put Iyanden on the brink of extinction

They are good at sneaking up on those eldar.

Darth Bob wrote:- Its most recent hive fleet has thus-far proved unstoppable

Correction. Leviathan has been bogged down by an ork rich system. It is too close to call right now.

Darth Bob wrote:
Also, a key feature of the Tyranid race is their ability to evolve. When Behemoth fought the Ultramarines they had no idea what they were up against.

Neither did the marines.

Darth Bob wrote:This is why Kraken was even nastier than Behemoth and Leviathan is even nastier than Kraken. When and if Leviathan is destroyed, the next fleet will be worse. If that one is destroyed, the next one will be worse. They'll keep getting harder and harder to stop until they've evolved to the point where no-one can stop them.

Does that point really exist? I mean, everything has limits. The hive mind is no exception. If it really was capable of 'perfection' it would have created itself some self sustaining ecosystems or learned to leech energy off the stars by now. Heck, maybe even made a ship that could travel as fast as the eldar or at least the imperium...

Darth Bob wrote:Because every time a Hive Fleet is destroyed, the Hive Mind produces new Fleets that have fixed the problems that were the downfall of the previous Fleet.

"Not enough of us." "Tendril fleet atomized, conditions unknown."

Darth Bob wrote:Also, note, something that is heavily emphasized is that the Tyranids we have seen are more than likely only a very small percentage of the Tyranids that exist in the universe. We've only seen a tiny fraction of what the Hive Fleet has in store for our yummy, yummy universe.

Unstoppable future forces/conditions? Never heard of those before. The Necrons have unlimited indestructible machines that self repair and their tomb worlds are seeded throughout the imperium (with some perilously close to Terra). The entire Eldar race are going to reincarnate themselves into a god of death and fight at the end times of the universe. The Orks have a carbon copy guarantee that they, alone, could take on everyone else combined if they simply fought together instead of against each other. The imperium already has control of a trillion systems and loses billions of lives due to rounding errors on tax returns.

Darth Bob wrote:Abadabadoobadon has nothing on the Nids.

Much truth.

Just a few points.

Scrabb wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:- Ate an Eldar Craftworld

Impressive. A triumph of the Hive Mind interfering with the Farseers no doubt.

the Kryptman quote that was looked for earlier in the thread is I believe this one from the previous Tyranid codex.

"It is now known that three major hive fleets have to date launched attacks upon our domains, and no effort has been spared to extrapolate the long term ramifications of the pattern of these incursions. The results of our studies, though far from conclusive, indicate findings that are dire in the extreme. It is the belief of this Collective that the hive fleets with which we have made contact represent not discrete and separate units, but fundamentally coordinated elements of a whole. In short, the hive fleets we have thus far encountered represent but the vanguard of a far larger force. They are but the talons on a rapidly constricting claw, and our galaxy has yet to feel the full might of the Hive Mind's force.

The ramifications then are clear. In the past 250 years we have been engaged upon a war in which we considered victory a possibility, provided we effect nigh intolerable sacrifices. But should those fleets we have encountered prove the merest fraction of a terrible whole, we have, at best, a century before the full force is brought to bear upon us. It is the belief of Strategic Intelligence Collective 827/II that current mobilization levels will need to be increased a minimum of 500% if we are to even stand a chance of slowing the advance of the Hive Mind. Every able bodied man and woman on every world in Ultima Segmentum, Segmentum Pacificus, and Segmentum Solar will need to be drafted into the Imperial Guard if we are to have any chance of repelling this foe.

Even without the predations of the Traitor Legions, the Orkoid menace, and a hundred other foes, our continued existence as a species appears now tenuous at best.

I commit our souls to the Emperor, for only faith in Him can save us."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
now that's some scale

The very fact that just ten percent of Leviathan is bogging down the entirety of the Ork system that has been bothering the imperium since the dawn of time is unbelievable.

Also, darth bob is right. The hive fleets are continuously getting more tactically advanced and efficient. Before there where never any 'nid attacks now suddenly they happen one after the other? That is why I believe there is a truly MASSIVE hive fleet..... that these the imperium has encountered are just tendrils of what is to come. Why the different tactics? unless they are prodding the galaxy and testing for weaknesses to exploit.

I invision the scenario like an Octopus..... the tentacles are coming in to prod and examin and see if the prey is edible..... and it is. So soon enough the mouth will be here.....

xXSir MontyXx wrote:The very fact that just ten percent of Leviathan is bogging down the entirety of the Ork system that has been bothering the imperium since the dawn of time is unbelievable.

Also, darth bob is right. The hive fleets are continuously getting more tactically advanced and efficient.

Even with that, the effect won't the full bang cause the other side know what the nids are up to and are planning for that eventual

Before there where never any 'nid attacks now suddenly they happen one after the other? That is why I believe there is a truly MASSIVE hive fleet..... that these the imperium has encountered are just tendrils of what is to come. Why the different tactics? unless they are prodding the galaxy and testing for weaknesses to exploit.

If it just one overly massive fleet, the nids are putting themselves into needless danger if anyone decides to use a couple of Black Hole Bombs (anime Gunbuster) or worst case do a galaxy scale big bang (anime Ideon) as the ultimate FU to the nids.

better for the nids to completely scatter themselves across the universe so there is almost no way any entity, species, organization and etc. from one galaxy can completely wipe them out.

Rubberanvil wrote:If it just one overly massive fleet, the nids are putting themselves into needless danger if anyone decides to use a couple of Black Hole Bombs (anime Gunbuster) or worst case do a galaxy scale big bang (anime Ideon) as the ultimate FU to the nids.

better for the nids to completely scatter themselves across the universe so there is almost no way any entity, species, organization and etc. from one galaxy can completely wipe them out.

....you have more faith in imperial technology then I do, they can barely fire their guns safely, I would not ttrust them with a black hole weapon, but I could see the Imperium coming out on top if they brought every spare asset to bear on the Nids, that or a mssive feeding fest

Rubberanvil wrote:If it just one overly massive fleet, the nids are putting themselves into needless danger if anyone decides to use a couple of Black Hole Bombs (anime Gunbuster) or worst case do a galaxy scale big bang (anime Ideon) as the ultimate FU to the nids.

Don't start bringing non-40k weapons into this thread, or it will end up like the last thread. Stick to what the Imperium is actually capable of fluffwise.

Have you ever chewed on tin foil?

exactly why nids don't eat Crons, fluff aside.. They always spit the bits out

Metal is mineral. Tyranids do harvest a planets minerals. The reason they avoid them is their tomb worlds tend to be pretty desolate, and Tyranids gain far more biomass from a planets biosphere than whatever is living on it, and there's not a whole lot in a normal tomb worlds biosphere.

Personally, from a strategic view the hive mind only has a handful of benefits from undergoing splinter fleet invasions like the IoM has encountered - to test the strength of it's opponents.
As if you were to look at the logistics of the hive mind it suggest this IMO,'it has enough biomass/resources to send splinter fleets on relitively "direct" attacks againts powereful opponents, without committing a large enough force to destroy it, what I mean by this is that they aren't attacking the galaxy from a 'front' they attack it from a point and drive inwards, surely when the hive mind wants to consume the galaxy it will come as a wave across the whole edge(if you can call it that) of the galaxy?
This suggest the hive mind is probing and is formulating an efficient plan to commit it's whole forces, OR it's more stupid than we think (I doubt this very much) OR possibly it could be the running from a bigger threat theory, causing the nids to display poor tactics (I doubt this thoery even more but included it as discussion point)

And on a separate note, don't forgeworlds take hundreds of years to try and manufacture a NEW TITAN? that ends up being sub par? From the impression I get (titanicus by dan Abnet is what comes to mind) the mechanicus prefers to repair titans, and if there destryed, that isn't helpful. Compare this to the tyranids where as long as they have enough biomass they can make their own titans, which I'm pretty confidant that their development time is more rapid than hundreds of years


Dan

D.Smith wrote:And on a separate note, don't forgeworlds take hundreds of years to try and manufacture a NEW TITAN? that ends up being sub par? From the impression I get (titanicus by dan Abnet is what comes to mind) the mechanicus prefers to repair titans, and if there destryed, that isn't helpful. Compare this to the tyranids where as long as they have enough biomass they can make their own titans, which I'm pretty confidant that their development time is more rapid than hundreds of years


Dan

Yes, something people keep forgetting. Tyranids grow now creatures quickly. Hell, they calve multiple hive ships when one dies - they just needs to grow after that.

Those 'minimal losses' the Imperium is taking take a long time to recover. A Titan takes decades to build. A new battleship takes centuries. A Space Marine takes decades from recruitment to being ready for combat as a scout - a whole company of Space Marines centuries old with millenia of combat experience between them would be irreplaceable. Just what hive fleet Behemoth did to the Imperium would take them millenia to recover from, without even taking into account the irreplaceable losses, like artefacts used by the Space Marines, the hundreds of planets stripped clean. The loss of a segmentums fleet would take millenia to replace, the Imperial Guard forces wiped out would require huge levels of conscription of the able bodied workforce.

Yes, they defeated a hive fleet - but the biomass harvested before it was destroyed was already taken, and would be sitting with the primary hive fleets as they calve new hive ships, and reinforcing the segmentum weakens the nearby forces that supplied those reinforcments while what was lost is slowly rebuilt

Wardragoon wrote:....you have more faith in imperial technology then I do, they can barely fire their guns safely, I would not ttrust them with a black hole weapon, but I could see the Imperium coming out on top if they brought every spare asset to bear on the Nids, that or a mssive feeding fest

Let's also not forget the amount of (in game) heavy, rapidfire, and pistol weapons with such fun side effects as "gets hot!", as opposed to a full weapon selection of assault weapons with a multitude of shots, which fluff wise infers considerably more efficient weapons systems that obviously don't require production facilities or AA batteries to power (D batteries for the hotshot lasguns ) but otherwise seems like the stockpiled weapons of the IoM are in greater supply than the constant rapid production of bio-weapons. But only time will show how many more dino-bugs rush in to fight.

Rubberanvil wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:The very fact that just ten percent of Leviathan is bogging down the entirety of the Ork system that has been bothering the imperium since the dawn of time is unbelievable.

Also, darth bob is right. The hive fleets are continuously getting more tactically advanced and efficient.

Even with that, the effect won't the full bang cause the other side know what the nids are up to and are planning for that eventual

Before there where never any 'nid attacks now suddenly they happen one after the other? That is why I believe there is a truly MASSIVE hive fleet..... that these the imperium has encountered are just tendrils of what is to come. Why the different tactics? unless they are prodding the galaxy and testing for weaknesses to exploit.

If it just one overly massive fleet, the nids are putting themselves into needless danger if anyone decides to use a couple of Black Hole Bombs (anime Gunbuster) or worst case do a galaxy scale big bang (anime Ideon) as the ultimate FU to the nids.

better for the nids to completely scatter themselves across the universe so there is almost no way any entity, species, organization and etc. from one galaxy can completely wipe them out.

No sarcasm or anything intended, just actual curiosity; why weren't these used on hive fleets before? Surely this would have been better than sending some 'nids into an are full of orks only to come back later.....

-Loki- wrote:
Those 'minimal losses' the Imperium is taking take a long time to recover. A Titan takes decades to build. A new battleship takes centuries. A Space Marine takes decades from recruitment to being ready for combat as a scout - a whole company of Space Marines centuries old with millenia of combat experience between them would be irreplaceable. Just what hive fleet Behemoth did to the Imperium would take them millenia to recover from, without even taking into account the irreplaceable losses, like artefacts used by the Space Marines, the hundreds of planets stripped clean. The loss of a segmentums fleet would take millenia to replace, the Imperial Guard forces wiped out would require huge levels of conscription of the able bodied workforce.

Yes, they defeated a hive fleet - but the biomass harvested before it was destroyed was already taken, and would be sitting with the primary hive fleets as they calve new hive ships, and reinforcing the segmentum weakens the nearby forces that supplied those reinforcments while what was lost is slowly rebuilt

Space Marines are a trivial, if shiny, novelty. Their numbers are negligible beside that of the Guard, and their leaders have all the tactical acumen of a brick. A hundred thousand Space Marines dead wouldn't mean anything to the Imperium, and a company is a thousandth of that.

The Guard itself takes only a relative handful of recruits from worlds. Tanith, a world with a population in the low billions (assuming a very low population density), was tithed for six thousand recruits. Terra, which if I recall correctly has a population in the tens of trillions, only has a few million in its personal legions. Two regiments (about two-three thousand guardsmen in this case, going off the numbers the combined regiment is listed as being maintained at), with only the local militia as reinforcements, are mentioned as having stopped a splinter fleet in For the Emperor (making them expert Tyranid killers (you shoot the big ones!)), suffering only about 50% casualties each.

Tyranids may grow new soldiers quickly, but they're hideously inefficient with everything they do. The amount of energy they expend in harvesting a planet leaves them with only a minor net gain, and failing to take a single planet they've attacked is an almost irreparable loss to a Hive Fleet. Their only advantage is the speed at which they can take a planet, but they're painfully slow in moving on to the next, negating that. They'd have to be burning most of the excess resources taken from the last world to invest in taking the next, considering their numbers don't increase to unmatchable levels after only a few worlds. Splinter fleets spend decades chewing on backwaters no one will miss to grow to even a fraction of the full strength of the initial Hive Fleet.

I don't think the theory that they're secreting all the resources they harvest away somewhere, while maintaining a tiny, easily slaughtered fleet to do the harvesting holds much water. If they had more resources at their disposal, and didn't in fact burn most of them up in harvesting a world and refueling for the next attack, their numbers would be unassailable, and they wouldn't just be throwing massive investments into a meatgrinder.


It may well be that the fleets enter the galaxy as single ships, spending decades feeding on undefended fringe worlds before daring to try to penetrate deeper. Any resources harvested from a previous galaxy could well have been burned up sending a relatively small number of seed ships to this one. That's a far more realistic take than fleets containing many trillions of tons of hive ship making the journey only to be thrown into a meatgrinder for "strategic research". Unless the Tyranids make even smurfs look brilliant, which I don't believe for a second. They certainly seem to be pretty dull witted, given all the resources at their disposal compared to the results they get with them, but even that's a far sight brighter than Space Marines.

Interesting ideas apart from one key thing, they MUST have biomass reserves as the distance to travel between galaxies means they would have to have this reserve and also the ability to re-store their collected biomass.

And where did you find the fluff on only having a "small" net gain from devouring a planet? I havent seen this before?


Dan

The notion that they're just sending most of the biomass to some undisclosed location for storage, rather than using it to create an unstoppable fleet? Loki's post near the end of your "Hypothetical Tyranid Attack" thread about how much mass a planet provides compared to how much the Tyranid fleet increases by after apparently consuming it?

If we look at what the Tyranids are doing, spawning massive numbers of highly energetic creatures to run around eating a planet, and then dragging trillions of tons of low-yield dirt sludge into orbit, before entering a non-warp but apparently FTL travel to their next destination, these are all extremely resource intensive actions. Since Hive Fleets are obliterated and scattered in the cases where they fail to take a world they've invested resources attacking, and don't appear again for decades, it can be be gathered that the apparently missing mass isn't in reserve either, or they'd recover much faster. It can be assumed that they have a net gain from processing a planet, as they continue to harvest planets, but as they don't increase their ranks by much, they take decades to build up even a small fleet, and everything they do is extremely resource intensive, it is the logical conclusion that they don't gain very much for every world take.


As for having massive reserves, more reserves means more energy required to get them there. The resources required to get a single full Hive Fleet through the intervening space would be absurdly wasteful, so the logical conclusion is small "seed" ships dumping spores on undefended fringe worlds, and building up the fleet at the edges of this galaxy, before striking inwards. Same effect as observed, less resources wasted.

I can see the logic in your argument about energy harvested from a planet being smaller than advertised, but unless you can compute the calories a whole planets biomass would contribute I'm going to say you're making a big assumption yo hinge that part of your argument on.

With reference to the nids not reappearing soon after a defeat being indicative of the lack of reserves, as mentioned previously nids are not as quick at space travel as tech based races, which would hinder this greatly.

Lastly, stating that moving the suspected reserves have demands that outweigh the point of taking them doesn't cater for the prospect of there being a balance struck between reserves and overall weight which would allow their transport. Again with nids moving slower through space, this may indicate a greater efficiency with their propulsion rather than a loss.

I'm not implying that your arguments are incorrect, just that there are alternatives that allow for the nids to be more capable than you have suggested.

Wardragoon wrote:

Rubberanvil wrote:If it just one overly massive fleet, the nids are putting themselves into needless danger if anyone decides to use a couple of Black Hole Bombs (anime Gunbuster) or worst case do a galaxy scale big bang (anime Ideon) as the ultimate FU to the nids.

better for the nids to completely scatter themselves across the universe so there is almost no way any entity, species, organization and etc. from one galaxy can completely wipe them out.

....you have more faith in imperial technology then I do, they can barely fire their guns safely, I would not ttrust them with a black hole weapon, but I could see the Imperium coming out on top if they brought every spare asset to bear on the Nids, that or a mssive feeding fest

My opinion of IoM is pretty low as well when they do have a black hole bomb substitute with the detonating warp drives, if any one in IoM actually took notes of how the Battle for Macragge was won in space. Through only warp drives possibly available for weaponization(sp) would be for destroyers. Big Bang type weapon would the any weapon when use will basically wipe out everything within range. Range would be any where from one galaxy to whole multi-verse.

-Loki- wrote:

Rubberanvil wrote:If it just one overly massive fleet, the nids are putting themselves into needless danger if anyone decides to use a couple of Black Hole Bombs (anime Gunbuster) or worst case do a galaxy scale big bang (anime Ideon) as the ultimate FU to the nids.

Was not bringing other weapons into 40K, just mentioning examples.

Don't start bringing non-40k weapons into this thread, or it will end up like the last thread. Stick to what the Imperium is actually capable of fluffwise.

I'm not bringing non-40k weapon, just am mentioning examples of what

-Loki- wrote:Just a few points.

Scrabb wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:- Ate an Eldar Craftworld

Impressive. A triumph of the Hive Mind interfering with the Farseers no doubt.

No, just one specialized bioform. One Tyranid killed a whole Craftworld. Which the Tyranids now have in their genetic vaults.

I thought eldar fluff had farseers steering their craftworld free of threats. Still, a space marine blowing up a traitor battleship would be a triumph of the imperium. When Shadowsun defeated a tyranid splinter fleet without losing a ship it was a triumph for the Tau Empire.

-Loki- wrote:

Scrabb wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:- Put Iyanden on the brink of extinction

They are good at sneaking up on those eldar.

You say that like sneaking up on the most advanced psychic race, technologically and psychically, is easy.

It's a big deal, but again, they lost. It also could have been a subset point with the other destroyed craftworld.

-Loki- wrote:

Scrabb wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:- Its most recent hive fleet has thus-far proved unstoppable

Correction. Leviathan has been bogged down by an ork rich system. It is too close to call right now.

One tendril of Leviathan has been bogged down in the Octarius system. Congratulations Kryptmann, you diverted about 10% of a hive fleet and bogged it down. There's only the rest of the swarm eating everything unhindered.

I was under the impression that the entirety of the second half of Leviathan was engaged.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Hive_Fleet_Leviathan

Even if I'm wrong this proves there are powerful people in the imperium capable of altering tyranid fleet approach patterns.

What i've gotten so far from reading through the pages concerning the Tyranids, are that the Tyranids hadn't had that great succes on the larger scale. However (!!!)...

.. What you do learn, is that their adaptability is near-unmatched by any race, in both aspects such as cunning and raw force. If but a single Tyranid creature remains, chances are that everything might start all over again.

One of the biggest flaws of the Tyranids have most often been, that they've been unlucky at choosing their battles, and being both too eager, and trying to consume the whole galaxy just doesn't go hand in hand very well.

In the latest 'nidz codex, there' alot of fluff concerning the larger battles, such as the first encounter, where Marneus was nearly killed by the Swarmlord - had it not been for his Honour Guard. The battle did, however, cost the Ultramarines their entire 1st chapter, and the final battle in space, a great battleship.

The 2nd battle seemed a bigger succes. Though, yet again, the Tyranids were too hasty at picking their targets. This time, they divided their main forces and attacked both the Iyanden Craftworld, that nearly spelled extinction, had it not been for Yriel picking up the cursed Twilight Spear, sealing his own fate, and the Ultramarines.

If Robin Cruddace writes the next codex again, the nids have no chance at all!!

On a more serious note, there is evidence that the nids do have a much larger body of nids to call upon.

- Nids are drawn to the light astronomicon so all nids in the universe are coming towards terra
- Takes a loooong time for nids to travel to the milky way (hence the piece-meal effect)
- Introduction of more & more separate hive fleets as time goes on
- Escaping nid ships (Jormunga?) running from Tau pursuit craft towards...?

Fluff also states that nids have consumed several galaxies in the past before moving to ours. Even if those were "weaker" galaxies, thats a hell lot of biomass! As per written fluff, Kraken(?) was able to become a credible threat again after several "meals/planets".

All this discussion is moot though as the fluff will never advance. If it did:

- Nids evloution overcome and completely digest Ork biology (nids from spores!) in the Octavius war
- The whole nid invasion force moves into the milky way and nom noms everyone... etc

But I feel (IMHO only) that nids remain the sole credible threat based on fluff. They are singularly organized, born for war, incapable of remorse and have the ability & numbers to adapt. Thats win, win, win and win in my book for an army built to conquer.