Is the Imperium's oppressiveness necessary?

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**Ghyslain Xaroit**

An important point to remember is that the chaos gods existed before the Imperium of Man. They didn't evaporate when the Eldar empire was at its height, or during the Golden Age when humans were still developing tech and exploring relatively peacefully, or when the Great Crusade was in full swing and everyone was pretty happy. The positive emotions don't cancel out the negative ones that form the chaos gods, nor do the negative emotions dissipate during periods of peace and general happiness. So, apart from what everyone has been saying, i.e. that the Imperium can't afford to be nicer, it also wouldn't help make the warp less hostile even if they did change to be less repressive.

**Emperors Faithful**

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:That wouldn't take a grand conspiracy, it would only take a single radical Inquisitor and a like minded techpriest or two, who then claim to have totally found (forged) STC blueprints proving the Tau stole their technology from humanity.

There would have to be some sort of conspiracy as other Inquisitors would inevitably uncover the truth.

Of course, it's unlikely that even then the weapons would be put into mass production, and the Astartes wouldn't trust anything that hasn't been used for thousands of years. New Guard regiments founded near wherever the Inquisitor was operating? Possibly.

Exactly, the technophobia (not sure if this is a real word but I'm rolling with it) is a problem. Astartes may have an issue (though new founded chapters could easily be introduced to 'rediscovered' Imperial Tech) but other areas of the Imperium's forces would definitely benefit.

**IvanTih**

Emperors Faithful wrote:
IvanTih wrote:
Tau have only survived because the Nid problem.Also Imperium has railguns on ships,anti-gravity etc..... everything that Tau have and extra stuff.
Even Tau's best ships have IoM cruiser firepower.
Tau's advantage is that they are small thus they can arm their soldiers with their best gear,unlike the Imperium which has trillions of soldiers to arm.

I would argue that Tau tech is superior in several areas, such as the fact that their plasma weapons don't blow up. And the guided torpedoes would irrevocably change the dynamic of Imperial Navy engagements. I wouldn't say the Imperium lacks all of the technology that the Tau posses, but it's far too inefficient and the dependance on SCT's cripples the Imperium's ability to improve that. It would be a bold move, and borders on techno-heresy, but by incorporating Tau tech and reverse-engineering the technology the improvements in efficiency and advantages that could be gleaned would be incredible.

Imagine arming even only the elite troops of the Imperium (the Astartes) with Pulse Rifles instead of bolters. That alone would be easily affordable (only a million or so to arm every space marine) and would rip the average Space Marine up to a whole new tier of warrior, one that can litterally shoot down anything (barring AV12 Vehichles ).

This simply wouldn't work with the current technophobia in place (and might lead to a repeat of what caused the downfall of the Dark Age of Technology). Even if the brazen techpriest to take this leap wasn't immediately declared excommunicate traitoris, it would almost certainly cause a civil war within the Adeptus Mechanicus, one that would crumble the Imperium from within before the technological advantages gleaned could provided an advantage. If the Inquisiti
on collaborated with the tech priests working on the Tau tech, it's possible that the knowledge gained from taking apart Tau tech could be passed of as "re-discovered STCs". Though that would be a grand conspiracy and the Inquisition is far from a united (in idealogy) organization.

Tau can arm their soldiers with the best gear because they're small,not galaxy spanning like the Imperium and don't have problems with the Warp.Also Kill Team shows us that Pulse Rifles aren't so much powerful than lasguns.
It's the reason why the Tau appear superficially higher tech than the Imperium. Being tiny, they don't have the same logistics concerns, so they equip their troops with more fiddly stuff.

Adeptus Mechanicus has improved on technology numerous times(experimental torpedoes from Shadow Point,planet Tesla which was full of experimental weaponry),some parts of fluff from BFG,advances after heresy(vehicles,new dreadnought design,redesign of the space craft) etc...

Imperium has guided torpedoes(Execution Hour

),antigravity,railguns,graviton pulsars as weapons,better FTL etc...

Also Plasma guns can be set on different settings thus avoiding the blow up problem.

**1hadhq**

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Imagine arming even only the elite troops of the Imperium (the Astartes) with Pulse Rifles instead of bolters. That alone would be easily affordable (only a million or so to arm every space marine) and would rip the average Space Marine up to a whole new tier of warrior, one that can litterally shoot down anything...

Imagine suffering high casualties since nids are able to adapt to pulse weapons.
Imagine to deal out high casualties since nids are unable to adapt to imperial weapons.

Got a feeling the latter is preferrable...

Remember: Boltguns can load different types of ammo. Thus Special ammo for everyone FTW.

**Sir Pseudonymous**

Plasma guns are unstable by their very nature (although fluffwise, it seems like it's more they blow up when they're not fired often enough, rather than when they're fired). The only variation is on larger platforms, where venting systems and additional safeguards can be jammed in.

**Ugly Green Trog**

Bolters are way underpowered in the tabletop game, I think marines and CSM are the 2 most skewed races on the table top from the fluff and in "reality" a tactical squad would be a 1500pt army on its own, I think the Codex:movie marines bolter was a str6 ap 2 assaullt 3 weapon or simillar.

**Emperors Faithful**

IvanTih wrote:Tau can arm their soldiers with the best gear because they're small,not galaxy spanning like the Imperium and don't have problems with the Warp.Also Kill Team shows us that Pulse Rifles aren't so much powerful than lasguns.
It's the reason why the Tau appear superficially higher tech than the Imperium. Being tiny, they don't have the same logistics concerns, so they equip their troops with more fiddly stuff.

It's not really a logistical problem, it's not like the Imperium or the Tau supply all their resources from a single point. Lasguns are easy to manufacture, but it wouldn't be implausible to alter the factory lines so that Pulse rifles replaced lasguns (or at least bolters).

Adeptus Mechanicus has improved on technology numerous times(experimental torpedoes from Shadow Point,planet Tesla which was full of experimental weaponry),some parts of fluff from BFG,advances after heresy(vehicles,new dreadnought design,redesign of the space craft) etc...

Yes, but their ability to do so is crippled due to their lack of widespread understanding. An approach similar to what the Tau take would change that.

Imperium has guided torpedoes(Execution Hour ),antigravity,railguns,graviton pulsars as weapons,better FTL etc...

Also Plasma guns can be set on different settings thus avoiding the blow up problem.

Can you show my guardsmen this?

1hadhq wrote:Imagine suffering high casualties since nids are able to adapt to pulse weapons.

Seems to work just fine on the field.

Imagine to deal out high casualties since nids are unable to adapt to imperial weapons.

The BFG book disagrees with you.

**IvanTih**

Emperors Faithful wrote:
It's not really a logistical problem, it's not like the Imperium or the Tau supply all their resources from a single point. Lasguns are easy to manufacture, but it wouldn't be implausible to alter the factory lines so that Pulse rifles replaced lasguns (or at least bolters).

First of all you forget that Imperium often has logistical problems because of the Warp and Astropaths.Lasguns solve some of the problems,Bolters while more powerful are expensive and they require steady supply of ammunition.
Tau only survived because Nids arrived.They're currently below IoM radar(Taros was only won because the writer who is an idio* in any case(see IA5-8) nerfed Imperium and what's even worse the Imperial forces behaved like their brains were surgically removed),guess what happens when they get too cocky.

**Emperors Faithful**

I'm not saying that the Imperium doesn't have logistical problems, but I would argue that logistics isn't what prevents advanced weaponry being incorporated into the Imperium on a greater scale.

**Mr Hyena**

The Inquisitor in DoW2: Retribution said it best "One heretic is enough to lead a Guardsmen Regiment astray".

Now think what might happen, on an Imperial Hive World, if one heretic Psyker is there and left alone? ONE is enough to lead to the outright rebellion (and eventual destruction) of the world!. I say the 'oppressiveness' is much needed given the circumstances.

The Tau and the Eldar would ultimately be only concerned with their own interests (really, how many times have the Eldar used the Imperium to fight their battles?) So why should they be considered allies and not executed on sight?

For those interested in the subject: Read 'The Inquisition War'. Its a very good omnibus that deals with the morality of the Imperium; and is good at explaining why things must be this way.

**Brother Coa**

Mr Hyena wrote:The Inquisitor in DoW2: Retribution said it best "One heretic is enough to lead a Guardsmen Regiment astray".

Now think what might happen, on an Imperial Hive World, if one heretic Psyker is there and left alone? ONE is enough to lead to the outright rebellion (and eventual destruction) of the world!. I say the 'oppressiveness' is much needed given the circumstances.

The Tau and the Eldar would ultimately be only concerned with their own interests (really, how many times have the Eldar used the Imperium to fight their battles?) So why should they be considered allies and not executed on sight?

For those interested in the subject: Read 'The Inquisition War'. Its a very good omnibus that deals with the morality of the Imperium; and is good at explaining why things must be this way.

I agree, such precautions are necessary to save our race. Eldar may have used us time and time again, but they helped us in some ocasions and I respect them for that. Tau to, but you can never be to sure with xenos.

**IvanTih**

Emperors Faithful wrote:I'm not saying that the Imperium doesn't have logistical problems, but I would argue that logistics isn't what prevents advanced weaponry being incorporated into the Imperium on a greater scale.

Kinda yes,could be incompetence.

This reminds of a RPG thread on SpaceBattles.com which just did that(it put posters in charge and many of them are 40k experts(more than any poster here and I mean it so,they can almost always bring out a quote from some book,white dwarf,short story etc.... )).

Here's the link.Hope you enjoy it.

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=182526

**Emperors Faithful**

IvanTih wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:I'm not saying that the Imperium doesn't have logistical problems, but I would argue that logistics isn't what prevents advanced weaponry being incorporated into the Imperium on a greater scale.

Kinda yes,could be incompetence.

Why is that? The weapons of the Imperium are largely supplied through forgeworlds, which are spread throughout the Imperium. If you replace what the construction lines currently work on with something else then the distribution of such stockpiles would not be a problem (any more than usual at least).

This reminds of a RPG thread on SpaceBattles.com which just did that(it put posters in charge and many of them are 40k experts(more than any poster here and I mean it so,they can almost always bring out a quote from some book,white dwarf,short story etc.... )).

Here's the link.Hope you enjoy it.

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=182526

I hardly think that this thread counts as evidence, especially seeing as there is no way to 'standardise' a planet.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

1hadhq wrote:Imagine suffering high casualties since nids are able to adapt to pulse weapons.

Aha, after re-reading through the Tyranid codex it seems that Hive Fleet Gorgon's super adaptive capabilities were the exception, not the rule. Pulse rifles themselves are not any more prone to being overcome by Tyranid adaptive abilities than lasguns (it would seem).

**xXSir MontyXx**

Dont lasguns and puls rifles effect the target in different ways though? A lasgun is just pure heat and energy. A pulse rifle is much more complicated when it hits the target isn't it?

**ChrisWWII**

I always had the feeling that pulse rifles were plasma weapons toned down in strength in AP in exchange for being able to be cheap enough to issue to Fire Warriors in bulk.

Lasguns are laser weapons....so they both do damage through burning it would seem.

**Kilkrazy**

Since the thread has gone completely off topic, I shall lock it.