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I was having an interesting conversation on Chaos in general. I asked why it wasn't possible to make Chaos "nice" by improving the human condition from the cesspit that is the 40k world. the other guy answered that positive emotions don't make enough energy as negative emotions do. I was about to ask about why the Imperium can't be as oppressive as it is, but we had to end the conversation. So, I'd like to ask you guys on the subject.

If the imperium was nice...it wouldn't make for an exciting plot line. Also think of it this way, if the imperium was just a generally nice place, they had their armies as everyone does but everyone in the universe is at world peace and get's free dental. The problem is if the Imperium was nice than chaos would do everything in it's power to reverse them. For example, if there are no inquisitors to do exterminatus, than hundreds of planets get taken over by daemon princes and the the Imperium goes bibi Chaos is a corruptive thing, and heretics need to be monitered and destroyed

I vote yes, because the Imperium itself is fairly nice. The only times it interferes are cases of existential threats, like idiot cultists sacrificing themselves to summon a daemon for no reason, or when xenos try to prey on humanity. Individual planets within it can go either way, based on their own culture, but the Imperium as a whole is benevolent, if ruthless.

It is necessary to the High Lords of Terra, who rule in the stead of the Emporer.

(There's a clue in the name.)

Looking at the overall galactic situation, there's no point being nice to Chaos, Deldar, Orks, Tyranids or Necrons.

Palling up with the Tau and Eldar would be a good idea to help beat everyone else.

A "nicer" Imperium would reduce the supply of negative emotions that fuels Chaos.

It could be done, if the entire Imperium emulated the Ultramar system...
But, it would be didfficult and a whole bunch of people would die... so i voted no.

In the current mess? Probably not. The millitary absoloutely must keep running, and so some worlds must keep functioning. Regardless of what it takes to keep that world from stopping production. The populations of those worlds suffer, but on the other hand, they don't get eaten by the Tyranids. Sometimes.

In the classic tradeoff between freedom and security, the hwole of the Imperium said 'feth freedom' and went for security. And sadly enough? It's necessary. If the Imperium were a bit more lax, rogue psykers could pop up and doom whole planets at a time. If the Imperial Guard weren't kept up to task, the Imperium would slowly crumble from outside threats. More importantly, the Imperium in and of itself isn't that oppressive....it has a few laws, (worship the Emperor, pay your tithes, surrender all psykers, and no cooperating with non-humans) it's just that it will enforce those laws by killing millions of people if it has to.

And, even if the Imperium WERE kinder to the Eldar or Tau...well, the Eldar would still kill millions of humans if the Farseers saw a way to preserve their own race in the process. So, that's not going to help. And the Tau believe that it is their destiny to bring everyone into the Greater Good, so they're not going to stop advancing. Being kinder to anyone would really serve no benefit, and possibly weaken the Imperium.

So I said no.

Sadly, totally needed. As ChrisWWII said, without constant vigilance, daemons would be popping up everywhere, and they don't care how nice you are.

Gah!

Ask a different question in the poll to the one in the title why don't you!

I'm with KK - a nicer (in some respects) Imperium may well be better and safer than the Imperium as is.

But there is no where near enough skulls and grimdark in that senario

The Imperium isn't bad at all,actually only a small part of it is under actual war.Most worlds aren't sh**holes to live(even the middle hive isn't so bad).

A few planets as noted by Dark Heresy have things like human rights and democracy.

The IoM is faced with a stark choice.

In the eternal war against Chaos, an ally with astounding technology and transportation could be gained, at the possible cost of millions of lives.

Alternatively, nothing could be gained, at the real cost of millions of lives, plus an intensification of Chaos.

The path forward is clear.

It's heresy to suggest the Emperor's blessed policy be unnecessary. Heretics must be BURNED

The Prince Ch17 wrote:Therefore a prince, so long as he keeps his subjects united and loyal, ought not to mind the reproach of cruelty; because with a few examples he will be more merciful than those who, through too much mercy, allow disorders to arise, from which follow murders or robberies; for these are wont to injure the whole people, whilst those executions which originate with a prince offend the individual only.

...

Returning to the question of being feared or loved, I come to the conclusion that, men loving according to their own will and fearing according to that of the prince, a wise prince should establish himself on that which is in his own control and not in that of others; he must endeavour only to avoid hatred, as is noted.

I think everyone else pretty well covered the necessity of oppressiveness based on the external threats to the IoM, but let's not overlook the internal necessity either. The vision of the IoM is to unite the scattered remnants of humanity across the galaxy, on more than a million different worlds. Dissent (read: heresy) would fracture that union by causing planets, or even whole systems to break off in favor of self-determination; not only would this leave the IoM more vulnerable to its enemies by reducing its strength of numbers and resources, but it would completely go against the central vision of the Imperium. Hence, the union of this myriad of systems under a single government necessitates a strong, sometimes oppressive rule to maintain.

Kilkrazy wrote:The IoM is faced with a stark choice.

In the eternal war against Chaos, an ally with astounding technology and transportation could be gained, at the possible cost of millions of lives.

I assume that you're talking about the Tau here (seeing as Eldar can never be relied upon as allies even in the best of circumstances). You seem to ignore what a subversive impact the Tau would have on the Imperium, essentially making humans second class citizens or worse as humanity experience before the Crusades.

As for your possible cost of millions of lives, the reality is that it would be a lot more than a few million and all for the help of a miniscule alien Empire. Seizing Tau technology and turning it to the use of humanity goals would wield great results (or catastrophic given the liklihood of a Mechanicus civil war). Simply allying with the Tau lands the Imperium with a subversive leech that destabilizes the Imperial faith in the Emperor and offers little military advantage as an ally.

The grimdark style of goverment is necessary to manage such a dynamic intergalactic empire.

And besides, if it was more liberal, the IG would shut down, and the imperium would'ent last a week.

If the Imperium would be nice, wouldn't it be Star Trek?

The problem is not with thew Imperium, the problem is with other races. I say that other races must change their oppression toward Imperium and maybe then we can talk about nicer Imperium.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The IoM is faced with a stark choice.

In the eternal war against Chaos, an ally with astounding technology and transportation could be gained, at the possible cost of millions of lives.

I assume that you're talking about the Tau here (seeing as Eldar can never be relied upon as allies even in the best of circumstances). You seem to ignore what a subversive impact the Tau would have on the Imperium, essentially making humans second class citizens or worse as humanity experience before the Crusades.

As for your possible cost of millions of lives, the reality is that it would be a lot more than a few million and all for the help of a miniscule alien Empire. Seizing Tau technology and turning it to the use of humanity goals would wield great results (or catastrophic given the liklihood of a Mechanicus civil war). Simply allying with the Tau lands the Imperium with a subversive leech that destabilizes the Imperial faith in the Emperor and offers little military advantage as an ally.

This man speaks truth, glory to the Imperium!

That aside, hadn't the EMPRAH already decreed that the threat of chaos demanded such a xenophobic outlook way back during the great crusade?

The Emperor didn't hate aliens, he was willing to not kill them all. However, his will has been reinterpreted by the High Lords of Terra from 'don't believe in Gods, and work for the betterment of humanity'. To 'The EMperor is a God and kill an ything that doesn't worship him/isn't human.'

I don't think the Emperor was that naive. He viewed the Xeno as a threat, and they are. Humanities interests were always going to come first, and it was never likely that Alien interests would co-incide with them, so someone had to lose.

And really, the High Lords have simply (over 10,000 years of interpretation) come from the Emperor's statement of 'Work for the betterment of humanity' to 'the Emperor is the betterment of humanity'.

Mustela wrote:It's heresy to suggest the Emperor's blessed policy be unnecessary. Heretics must be BURNED

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The IoM is faced with a stark choice.

In the eternal war against Chaos, an ally with astounding technology and transportation could be gained, at the possible cost of millions of lives.

I assume that you're talking about the Tau here (seeing as Eldar can never be relied upon as allies even in the best of circumstances). You seem to ignore what a subversive impact the Tau would have on the Imperium, essentially making humans second class citizens or worse as humanity experience before the Crusades.

As for your possible cost of millions of lives, the reality is that it would be a lot more than a few million and all for the help of a miniscule alien Empire. Seizing Tau technology and turning it to the use of humanity goals would wield great results (or catastrophic given the liklihood of a Mechanicus civil war). Simply allying with the Tau lands the Imperium with a subversive leech that destabilizes the Imperial faith in the Emperor and offers little military advantage as an ally.

Tau have only survived because the Nid problem.Also Imperium has railguns on ships,anti-gravity etc..... everything that Tau have and extra stuff.
Even Tau's best ships have IoM cruiser firepower.
Tau's advantage is that they are small thus they can arm their soldiers with their best gear,unlike the Imperium which has trillions of soldiers to arm.

would being nicer lessen Chaos' power? or is chaos so strong now, that it doesnt really care if the material world is nicer anymore?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The IoM is faced with a stark choice.

In the eternal war against Chaos, an ally with astounding technology and transportation could be gained, at the possible cost of millions of lives.

I assume that you're talking about the Tau here (seeing as Eldar can never be relied upon as allies even in the best of circumstances). You seem to ignore what a subversive impact the Tau would have on the Imperium, essentially making humans second class citizens or worse as humanity experience before the Crusades.

As for your possible cost of millions of lives, the reality is that it would be a lot more than a few million and all for the help of a miniscule alien Empire. Seizing Tau technology and turning it to the use of humanity goals would wield great results (or catastrophic given the liklihood of a Mechanicus civil war). Simply allying with the Tau lands the Imperium with a subversive leech that destabilizes the Imperial faith in the Emperor and offers little military advantage as an ally.

Exactly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ironically, The Imperium's oppressiveness is indeed what causeses most Chaos- Rebellions. However, Chaos Rebellions are what causes The Imperium's Oppressiveness.

I don't think the Imperium can survive regardless of whether they are nice or oppressive. I do object to the idea that they are the good guys who are reluctantly oppressing the galaxy because it's the only way to hold off their enemies. They are routinely and very much intentionally described in the most gratuitously nightmarish and totalitarian terms possible. Their only saving grace, depending on your perspective, is that they represent the order as opposed to the chaos of the ruinous powers. In any other respect if you're rooting for them in real world terms you're missing the point.

Of course, the in-universe answer is that any heretics that dare ask such questions must be purged with fire.

Temujin wrote:I don't think the Imperium can survive regardless of whether they are nice or oppressive. I do object to the idea that they are the good guys who are reluctantly oppressing the galaxy because it's the only way to hold off their enemies. They are routinely and very much intentionally described in the most gratuitously nightmarish and totalitarian terms possible. Their only saving grace, depending on your perspective, is that they represent the order as opposed to the chaos of the ruinous powers. In any other respect if you're rooting for them in real world terms you're missing the point.

Of course, the in-universe answer is that any heretics that dare ask such questions must be purged with fire.

That's not the point of the Imperium. Without IoM how long do you think Human race would survive? Their totalitarian nature is described as necessary because it is the only way to hold Hukanity together. Without that kind of power, IoM would crumble into millions of little empires, as was Humanity after the Dark Age of Technoilogy. And they do not kill individual for asking that, they simply tell him that Emperor long ago battle the evils of the galaxy and forge the Imperium. And he has given the greatest sacrifice of all, and because of that Humanity is still out there in the galaxy. And all Humans should work and fight his enemies, as to show respect and thankfulness to his sacrifice.

Only "good guys" in 40k are Imperium, Eldar and Tau. And they are so dark that we all ask are they really the good guys.

I would say that the Imperium is necessarily harsh, all the myriad forces of the galaxy as well as the Warp assail His domain ceaselessly. Even those worlds which are removed from the "front lines" are still not safe from the creeping menace of Chaos burrowing into the minds of those whose faith falters. If the Imperium is to endure it must be ever vigilant and equally ready to crush any threat.

IvanTih wrote:
Tau have only survived because the Nid problem.Also Imperium has railguns on ships,anti-gravity etc..... everything that Tau have and extra stuff.
Even Tau's best ships have IoM cruiser firepower.
Tau's advantage is that they are small thus they can arm their soldiers with their best gear,unlike the Imperium which has trillions of soldiers to arm.

I would argue that Tau tech is superior in several areas, such as the fact that their plasma weapons don't blow up. And the guided torpedoes would irrevocably change the dynamic of Imperial Navy engagements. I wouldn't say the Imperium lacks all of the technology that the Tau posses, but it's far too inefficient and the dependance on SCT's cripples the Imperium's ability to improve that. It would be a bold move, and borders on techno-heresy, but by incorporating Tau tech and reverse-engineering the technology the improvements in efficiency and advantages that could be gleaned would be incredible.

Imagine arming even only the elite troops of the Imperium (the Astartes) with Pulse Rifles instead of bolters. That alone would be easily affordable (only a million or so to arm every space marine) and would rip the average Space Marine up to a whole new tier of warrior, one that can litterally shoot down anything (barring AV12 Vehichles ).

This simply wouldn't work with the current technophobia in place (and might lead to a repeat of what caused the downfall of the Dark Age of Technology). Even if the brazen techpriest to take this leap wasn't immediately declared excommunicate traitoris, it would almost certainly cause a civil war within the Adeptus Mechanicus, one that would crumble the Imperium from within before the technological advantages gleaned could provided an advantage. If the Inquisition collaborated with the tech priests working on the Tau tech, it's possible that the knowledge gained from taking apart Tau tech could be passed of as "re-discovered STCs". Though that would be a grand conspiracy and the Inquisition is far from a united (in idealogy) organization.

That wouldn't take a grand conspiracy, it would only take a single radical Inquisitor and a like minded techpriest or two, who then claim to have totally found (forged) STC blueprints proving the Tau stole their technology from humanity. Of course, it's unlikely that even then the weapons would be put into mass production, and the Astartes wouldn't trust anything that hasn't been used for thousands of years. New Guard regiments founded near wherever the Inquisitor was operating? Possibly.

I agree Kilkrazy. If the IoM was at least friendlier they could stand as a united front against some of the larger threats (Nids, Orks, and Chaos).

IvanTih wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The IoM is faced with a stark choice.

In the eternal war against Chaos, an ally with astounding technology and transportation could be gained, at the possible cost of millions of lives.

I assume that you're talking about the Tau here (seeing as Eldar can never be relied upon as allies even in the best of circumstances). You seem to ignore what a subversive impact the Tau would have on the Imperium, essentially making humans second class citizens or worse as humanity experience before the Crusades.

As for your possible cost of millions of lives, the reality is that it would be a lot more than a few million and all for the help of a miniscule alien Empire. Seizing Tau technology and turning it to the use of humanity goals would wield great results (or catastrophic given the liklihood of a Mechanicus civil war). Simply allying with the Tau lands the Imperium with a subversive leech that destabilizes the Imperial faith in the Emperor and offers little military advantage as an ally.

Tau have only survived because the Nid problem.Also Imperium has railguns on ships,anti-gravity etc..... everything that Tau have and extra stuff.
Even Tau's best ships have IoM cruiser firepower.
Tau's advantage is that they are small thus they can arm their soldiers with their best gear,unlike the Imperium which has trillions of soldiers to arm.

While Tau tech is no greater than IoM tech the two are not the same. The Tau know how their tech works, not just how to use it. The Tau are also constantly developing new tech, while the Imperium has literally used the same machines for hundreds of years.