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To clarify, here are some things that we know:

- The Emperor confonted and defeated a powerful creature that he called the Dragon of Mars. He imprisoned it on Mars.

- Mars and Terra established separate but co-existing empires during the Dark Age of Technology. These collapsed during the Age of Strife.

- The relative timeline of the rise of the first Martian empire and the imprisonment of the Dragon of Mars is unclear.

- Adeptus Mechanicus, along with their worship of the Omnissiah, developed during the Age of Strife.

- After conquering Terra, the Emperor made an alliance with the Mechanicum whereby the powers were unified but remained separately sovereign. Many among the Tech-Priests accepted the as the Omnissiah. Many others did not. Still others had no faith in the Omnissiah at all.

And now the speculation

- The Dragon of Mars is a C'tan known as the Void Dragon.

- The imprisoned Void Dragon inspired the Adeptus Mechanicus.

- The Void Dragon is the Omnissiah.

- The Emperor planned the whole thing. (This is not so much speculation on the part of fans as it is speculation on the part of Graham McNeill's characters.)

Going off of Manchu's clarifying post, I think it's pretty much garuntee'd that the imprisoned Dragon on Mars is the same as the Void Dragon if only because a good third of the Necron Codex deals heavily with the Mechanicum and the whole Dragon on Mars thing. If they weren't the same I cannot fathom why GW would waste part of the Necron codex on junk that doesn't deal with them.

Knowing GW they will just rewrite it all and say it was just one big joke.

Ribon Fox wrote:Knowing GW they will just rewrite it all and say it was just one big joke.

I think that would go over like this


First:
Then:

Well they have done it before and no dout will do it again

Depends on who we get as the codex writer.

I don't want my lords giving Marines Man-hugs and buddying up.

(My Flayed ones giving them rending hugs is another story, but that's wishlisting...)

Some SC Lords with unique and broken gear/abilities would be nice, as i'm getting pretty fracking tired of being owned by EVERYONE elses OP special characters...

Ascalam wrote:Depends on who we get as the codex writer.

I don't want my lords giving Marines Man-hugs and buddying up.

(My Flayed ones giving them rending hugs is another story, but that's wishlisting...)

Some SC Lords with unique and broken gear/abilities would be nice, as i'm getting pretty fracking tired of being owned by EVERYONE elses OP special characters...

Our SC's are pretty cool though! We can field gods, others can only field avatars at best. Mind you our gods can be taken down by 50~ pts. of snipers, but that's of minor concern.

Manchu wrote:
- The Emperor planned the whole thing. (This is not so much speculation on the part of fans as it is speculation on the part of Graham McNeill's characters.)

You've left out an important part there. Their speculation is that the Emperor did it on purpose to thwart any attempt at the Dragon gaining followers. The omnissiah/Machine God developed by the Cult of Mars is inspired by the Dragon, but definately not the Dragon. If he gets out, he's their enemy, not their god.

Assuming the Emperor knows his fundament from a peanut butter sandwich (hint- one is gold, and i suspect is retroengineered from a Stasis Tomb, the other is not..)

Remember that the Emperor couldn't tell that Horus was evil either, even when he was wandering around in spiky terminator armour with chaos symbols all over it, and then still couldn't immediately go through with killing him, at least in the older fluff..

Why everyone assumes the Emperor is all-knowing is beyond me. He was a highly psychic warlord with a marked lack of perceptiveness, and these days he's a giant psychic flashlight.

From a less imperiocentric perspective maybe the Deceiver is really the one pulling the strings, or the whole Adeptus Mechanicus is already worshipping the Dragon (remember that they are no longer in constant contact with the Imperium in the fluff (main rulebook i think? ) and have always had a certain sod-you attitude to the rest of the imperium...

Ascalam wrote:Assuming the Emperor knows his fundament from a peanut butter sandwich (hint- one is gold, and i suspect is retroengineered from a Stasis Tomb, the other is not..)

Remember that the Emperor couldn't tell that Horus was evil either, even when he was wandering around in spiky terminator armour with chaos symbols all over it, and then still couldn't immediately go through with killing him, at least in the older fluff..

Why everyone assumes the Emperor is all-knowing is beyond me. He was a highly psychic warlord with a marked lack of perceptiveness, and these days he's a giant psychic flashlight.

From a less imperiocentric perspective maybe the Deceiver is really the one pulling the strings, or the whole Adeptus Mechanicus is already worshipping the Dragon (remember that they are no longer in constant contact with the Imperium in the fluff (main rulebook i think? ) and have always had a certain sod-you attitude to the rest of the imperium...

We know the Deceiver has infiltrated the Inquisition for quite some time and is masquerading as a bunch of high ups for the moment, but I don't think he'd be trying to get the Dragon worshiped. Remember, the C'tan hate each other so if anything I'd imagine him trying to get the Dragon destroyed as fast as possible.

The C'Tan DON'T hate each other. Towards the end of their multi-billion year reign they had friendly rivalries that turned nasty because of scarcity of food, the Deceivers machinations and the Laughing God's influence. With the amount of food around now, all the C'Tan save perhaps for the Outsider would be happy to work together for their common goal, because if they stay as distinct forces they each have a far smaller chance of success than if they group together.

Is there a connection between the Laughing God and the Deciever?

It's slighly off topic but, what would happen if a Dragon Guardian touched the golden throne.

As they are given the ability to repair technology with a touch, and the Golden throne is failing because know one knows how to fix it... what would happen?

Oh and another thing that should maybe go on Manchu's clarifying post under things we know;

"The earliest mentions of the Void Dragon relate it to technology in a way that would indicate it had an amazing affinity and ability to control it."

I just thought that was a significant piece of evidance towards the dragon of mars being the void dragon

obsidianaura wrote:It's slighly off topic but, what would happen if a Dragon Guardian touched the golden throne.

As they are given the ability to repair technology with a touch, and the Golden throne is failing because know one knows how to fix it... what would happen?

Well, that's an interesting post.

Well, I suppose nothing else could happen than the reparation of the golden throne, big E roaming the stars again, etc. But that sounds a like a far too easy way to repair the golden throne. It sounds too beautiful to be true.
I don't think GW ever thought of this possibility. Otherwise, they would have created some rubbish saying that the guardians cannot approach the throne, etc.

Don't know if a fixed Golden Throne would heal the Big E but it would prevent him from getting worse.

It'd be cool if it did heal him though.

If I was writing a story for warhammer 50K, I'd say that the 13th Black Crusade got to Terra, was turned back at at a big cost and in the fighting Throne became futher damaged and failure was imminent.

A Dragon Guardian was rushed to Terra where they repaired the Golden throne, reviving the Big E but being slain by the effort required.

Then the Void Dragon could break loosewithout its guardian, much conflict insues.

obsidianaura wrote:Then the Void Dragon could break loosewithout its guardian, much conflict insues.

This and the earlier comment about the Necrons deliberately allowing themselves to be destroyed could make a feasible reason to have the Dragon freed from its imprisonment.

I doubt that repairing the Golden Throne would revive the Emperor but presumably it would mean that the damage done by Magnus would also be repaired meaning that the Emperor's powers would no longer need to be directed at keeping the webway gate shut, as the Golden Thronewould be able to do that by itself which could well free up the Emperor's powers for other things.

Another daily food for thought-

The Dragon controls machinery remotely.

The Golden throne was built or salvaged by the Adpetus Mechanicus, back in the very old days when they had only just turned from worshipping a darker entity (read Dragon here)on Mars and agreed to ally with the Emperor.

What if they lied? What is the Adeptus Mechanicus has ALWAYS served the Dragon. It's not like they tend to explain themselves to anyone else.

Also it says that the Mechanicus can't repair the Throne. What if they can, but say they can't

And a final one: What if the throne they installed the dying Emperor into (provided by the Machine Cult on Mars in those early days) is being controlled by the Dragon, and always has been, with the Emperor being nothing but a navigational beacon? The Imperium is frankly more or less what the C'tan want. Trillions of worlds in service to a machine with a soul grafted to it..

I think that the Deciever even mentions this in the except in the Codex

Might not be true, but i'd like to think that it is

You're missing the part where the Emperor created the prison that he put the Dragon in.

One would assume he knows what limitations that prison has.

Also, the Emperor was declared the Omnissiah as a concession. He and they knew full well there was no such thing, but it allowed the Cult of Mars to continue with their beliefs without having to be obliterated by the great crusade.

Maybe the machine god is a massive construct of gears and such that does nothing except make machine sounds and loom cool?

Scarey Nerd wrote:The C'Tan DON'T hate each other. Towards the end of their multi-billion year reign they had friendly rivalries that turned nasty because of scarcity of food, the Deceivers machinations and the Laughing God's influence. With the amount of food around now, all the C'Tan save perhaps for the Outsider would be happy to work together for their common goal, because if they stay as distinct forces they each have a far smaller chance of success than if they group together.

On 2 separate occasions the Deceiver has attempted to kill the Nightbringer, not to eat him or for fun, but to eradicate him entirely. The C'tan loath eachother as they are about the only thing, sans the Blackstone fortresses, that can actually kill another C'tan off. They didn't turn on each-other when food got scare as that didn't happen until after they had already gone to war against one another, they fought after the Deceiver tricked them into thinking that other C'tan may taste even better then humans, which proved true. The Enslaver plague is what forced them into hibernation as the food grew scarce and by that time we were down to the four current ones. The Nightbringer was almost dead when the Marines found him on Pavonis as the Deceiver had betrayed its location to its foes before the Nightbringer had fallen into stasis, which is when its scythe was banished to the Immaterium. However, I re-read some parts and while they still hate each-other, the Deceiver has concluded that it Does need the other C'tan to help it rule the galaxy again, so no. I suppose it wouldn't be trying to kill off the Dragon, but trying to awaken him.

Azure wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:The C'Tan DON'T hate each other. Towards the end of their multi-billion year reign they had friendly rivalries that turned nasty because of scarcity of food, the Deceivers machinations and the Laughing God's influence. With the amount of food around now, all the C'Tan save perhaps for the Outsider would be happy to work together for their common goal, because if they stay as distinct forces they each have a far smaller chance of success than if they group together.

On 2 separate occasions the Deceiver has attempted to kill the Nightbringer, not to eat him or for fun, but to eradicate him entirely. The C'tan loath eachother as they are about the only thing, sans the Blackstone fortresses, that can actually kill another C'tan off. They didn't turn on each-other when food got scare as that didn't happen until after they had already gone to war against one another, they fought after the Deceiver tricked them into thinking that other C'tan may taste even better then humans, which proved true. The Enslaver plague is what forced them into hibernation as the food grew scarce and by that time we were down to the four current ones. The Nightbringer was almost dead when the Marines found him on Pavonis as the Deceiver had betrayed its location to its foes before the Nightbringer had fallen into stasis, which is when its scythe was banished to the Immaterium. However, I re-read some parts and while they still hate each-other, the Deceiver has concluded that it Does need the other C'tan to help it rule the galaxy again, so no. I suppose it wouldn't be trying to kill off the Dragon, but trying to awaken him.

It was my interpretation that the Deceiver attempted to kill the Nightbringer simply because it feared him as the only C'Tan that would try and turn on him. You may well be right, of course, I just never remembered reading anything that said the C'Tan hated each other.

According to the Codex, the C'Tan turned on each other for sport and spite, not actually wanting to consume each other but fighting for the sake of fighting. When the harvests grew thin, they began to devour one another (page 25). However, you are right that it was the Deceiver that tried to spark this off.

'You're missing the part where the Emperor created the prison that he put the Dragon in.

One would assume he knows what limitations that prison has.

Also, the Emperor was declared the Omnissiah as a concession. He and they knew full well there was no such thing, but it allowed the Cult of Mars to continue with their beliefs without having to be obliterated by the great crusade.'


Assuming that he was all that smart, and didn't just order the Cult Mechanicus to do it for him (unless you're suggesting he handcrafted every brick and tunnel personally..) ?

From the fluff i've read about him (i'm not up on all the Black Library books) he wasn't a mechanical genius, but a psychic buttkicker. Newer fluff may well contradict this. I'm working off the fluff I have to hand...

Also, what would stop the Mechanicus (from my postulation) from saying that the Emperor's Holy Ghost is the Machine God (and then carry on worshipping the Dragon, and performing the same rituals etc anyway)?

If the Emperor was declared the Omnissiah as a sop to prevent him from wiping them out, then why are they an independent group immune to Imperial law, rather than just another branch of the Administratum?

I would think that when the big E was leaving earth, after having bludged the other competitors down (with the old upper torso power armour that was the only PA of the time (old fluff article.. have to see if i can find it) and comandeering some rusty, malfunctioning ships he would see the wisdom of allying, not dominating, with a tech-obsessed group with a higher tech level than his, who knew (approximately) how the tech worked, and were rather well armed to boot. Later on he could probably have wiped Mars off the map without too much fuss, but when he first left Earth to begin his Great Crusade i'd not bet on it.

Without the Mechanicus, there wouldn't have been a Great Crusade, and the Imperium would have collapsed long ago


'Maybe the machine god is a massive construct of gears and such that does nothing except make machine sounds and loom cool? '

That would be awesome Something like Deep Thought, but still thinking over its question and not ready to answer yet

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Azure wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:The C'Tan DON'T hate each other. Towards the end of their multi-billion year reign they had friendly rivalries that turned nasty because of scarcity of food, the Deceivers machinations and the Laughing God's influence. With the amount of food around now, all the C'Tan save perhaps for the Outsider would be happy to work together for their common goal, because if they stay as distinct forces they each have a far smaller chance of success than if they group together.

On 2 separate occasions the Deceiver has attempted to kill the Nightbringer, not to eat him or for fun, but to eradicate him entirely. The C'tan loath eachother as they are about the only thing, sans the Blackstone fortresses, that can actually kill another C'tan off. They didn't turn on each-other when food got scare as that didn't happen until after they had already gone to war against one another, they fought after the Deceiver tricked them into thinking that other C'tan may taste even better then humans, which proved true. The Enslaver plague is what forced them into hibernation as the food grew scarce and by that time we were down to the four current ones. The Nightbringer was almost dead when the Marines found him on Pavonis as the Deceiver had betrayed its location to its foes before the Nightbringer had fallen into stasis, which is when its scythe was banished to the Immaterium. However, I re-read some parts and while they still hate each-other, the Deceiver has concluded that it Does need the other C'tan to help it rule the galaxy again, so no. I suppose it wouldn't be trying to kill off the Dragon, but trying to awaken him.

It was my interpretation that the Deceiver attempted to kill the Nightbringer simply because it feared him as the only C'Tan that would try and turn on him. You may well be right, of course, I just never remembered reading anything that said the C'Tan hated each other.

According to the Codex, the C'Tan turned on each other for sport and spite, not actually wanting to consume each other but fighting for the sake of fighting. When the harvests grew thin, they began to devour one another (page 25). However, you are right that it was the Deceiver that tried to spark this off.

A god awful amount of the story is in fact Not covered in the codex but instead in a bunch of short stories that GW put out several years ago. If you look around here on dakka there is a beautiful informational thread that has cataloged every mention of Necrons/C'tan ever, and in there it gives more information on to their relations with each-other. Reading the Codex over again your viewpoint could easily be ascertained however, my apologies for assuming you had heard of this other stuff DX

Azure wrote:A god awful amount of the story is in fact Not covered in the codex but instead in a bunch of short stories that GW put out several years ago. If you look around here on dakka there is a beautiful informational thread that has cataloged every mention of Necrons/C'tan ever, and in there it gives more information on to their relations with each-other. Reading the Codex over again your viewpoint could easily be ascertained however, my apologies for assuming you had heard of this other stuff DX

Quite often when I'm routing around looking for Necron fluff, I get linked to the same GW page "Dawn of the C'Tan", but this page was removed years ago, so I can't find it

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Azure wrote:A god awful amount of the story is in fact Not covered in the codex but instead in a bunch of short stories that GW put out several years ago. If you look around here on dakka there is a beautiful informational thread that has cataloged every mention of Necrons/C'tan ever, and in there it gives more information on to their relations with each-other. Reading the Codex over again your viewpoint could easily be ascertained however, my apologies for assuming you had heard of this other stuff DX

Quite often when I'm routing around looking for Necron fluff, I get linked to the same GW page "Dawn of the C'Tan", but this page was removed years ago, so I can't find it

Was it truly? That's awful! There was a brief story about a troupe of Harlequins that had 'captured' The Outsider and were putting on a play for him. A solitaire had put up the image himself as the Deceiver in order to lead The Outsider through a bunch of hoops and into the Dyson Sphere. They ended up losing something like 7 solitaires as The Outsider would eventually get to and slay the current one but a new one would dawn the mask and lure it further and further into its capture. I don't do the story justice but it was similar to this.

Have you noticed that whenever GW wants to explain something powerful being put away it's ALWAYS the Laughing God, who ALWAYS wins...

Fun idea- What if the Laughing God and the Deciever are one and the same... I'm sure the eldar fluff contradicts this, but the guy IS the Deceiver, after all


A lot of the codex is hints and whispers, not 'solid' fluff. I'd definitely be interested to see where the next codex takes the fluff Preferably something less involving the concept 'and then the marines killed all the necrons and saved the system...' or ' and then the SM SC (pick any) bodyslammed the C'tan into a black hole/pulled its head off/kicked it in the nads..."

I want my army to look good in my codex. Other people's armies have their own codexes to be cool in.

*edited for sick kicks *

Ascalam wrote:A lot of the codex is hints and whispers, not 'solid' fluff. I'd definitely be interested to see where the next codex takes the fluff

Into the path of Marine Bolter fire. I guarantee this.

Gogsnik wrote:If/when the Dragon is freed from its imprisonment it is doubtful that the great masses of the Cult Mechanicus would worship the Dragon although naturally they would likely be some kind of schism

No doubt. And we all know how well schisms on Mars go.

Ascalam wrote:Have you noticed that whenever GW wants to explain something powerful being put away it's ALWAYS the Laughing God, who ALWAYS wins...

Fun idea- What if the Laughing God and the Deciever are one and the same... I'm sure the eldar fluff contradicts this, but the guy IS the Deceiver, after all ;

*edited for sick kicks *

The Laughing God is a warp deity though, and the Immaterium is the anathema to the C'tan, so I"m not sure how they could be one and the same. Though I have often thought of this myself.

Ascalam wrote:'
From the fluff i've read about him (i'm not up on all the Black Library books) he wasn't a mechanical genius, but a psychic buttkicker. Newer fluff may well contradict this. I'm working off the fluff I have to hand...

No fluff implies the emperor is more of a "psychic buttkicker" than a "mechanical genius".

Space Marines: gene manipulation and advanced armaments.
Golden Throne: machine.
Astronomicon: machine.

The Emperor's scientific genius is his most displayed and tangible ability. He actually built stuff, and he did it frequently.

On the contrary, people say he was a powerful psyker, but his only significant psychic endeavor (while he was in the form of the Emperor) was killing Horus.

Needed to conquer earth: built and armed an army.
Needed to conquer galaxy: built and armed Primarchs, that fails, built and armed Space Marines.
Stabilize warp travel: build astronomicon and later webway (that gets ruined)

He never solved any of his non-Horus problems with "psyker smash!".