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DarknessEternal wrote:
He never solved any of his non-Horus problems with "psyker smash!".

While that may indeed be true, the fact that the Emperor was a powerful-beyond-belief psyker is well documented. If you want more on this read "A Thousand Sons". Magnus frequently speaks of his "Father's" psychic prowess, and near the latter part of the book Magnus comes to the realization that the Emperor was much more powerful than even he (which for Magnus to admit is extremely telling).

However, if you're only debating Ascalam's use of the word "buttkicker" then I don't really have a basis on which to contradict you. Also according to "A Thousand Sons" all space marine chapters looked at Magnus's legion's use of ethereal powers in battle with distaste so I would assume the Emperor didn't smite his foes with them either otherwise it would be more openly accepted.

*edited for incorrect quote and then spelling. *sigh*

the Emperor certaintly did alot of Psychic butt kicking during the Crusade.


before the Primarchs were found the Emperor was leading the Space marines into battle.

Imperator Titans were made by the Ad Mech in an attempt to emulate the Emperor's destructive power.

the Emperor brought the entire Word Bearer Legion, and Primarch, to their knees with a single word, against their will.

sez the Imperium

Only the winners get to write/rewrite history

Sounds more like SM fanboyism on the part of the author than anything else, but hey, most Imperial fluff is like that..


'Space Marines: gene manipulation and advanced armaments.
Golden Throne: machine.
Astronomicon: machine.

The Emperor's scientific genius is his most displayed and tangible ability. He actually built stuff, and he did it frequently.

On the contrary, people say he was a powerful psyker, but his only significant psychic endeavor (while he was in the form of the Emperor) was killing Horus.

Needed to conquer earth: built and armed an army.
Needed to conquer galaxy: built and armed Primarchs, that fails, built and armed Space Marines.
Stabilize warp travel: build astronomicon and later webway (that gets ruined) '

The space marines are indeed gene-manipulated, no argument there. Want to bet it was the AD-Mech who did it at E's behest

The advanced SM armament predate BiG E, as they are STC templates. He just copied them and had the Ad-mech build them (from their own STC archive, most likely)..

The Golden Throne was built as a life support device by the Ad-Mech AFTER he was crippled and ganked by Horus in the fluff I have. I'd not be shocked if they retconned in that he built it beforehand, but i've not read that anywhere.

The Astronomican is a psychic radio, basically. I doubt that HE personally built it. Again the ancient fluff i'm working off (mostly 1st/2nd ed) seems to suggest it was built around him, post death, but i suppose he could have built it. I'm not seeing any fluff i have around that suggests that either the astronomican or the Throne were his handiwork, but if it exists I wouldn;t mind reading it, if you could tell me where it is

He definitely didn't build the Webway. The Old Ones did I think he might have hacked into it, fluffwise, but it's been there since the War in Heaven..


Feel free to prove me wrong on any of this, with a page reference and source, and i'll happily go read up. I'm a little behind on the latest spin on some of the fluff..

Ascalam wrote:
The Golden Throne was built as a life support device by the Ad-Mech AFTER he was crippled and ganked by Horus in the fluff I have. I'd not be shocked if they retconned in that he built it beforehand, but i've not read that anywhere.

HH series: Emperor builds Golden Throne to create a web way.

Ascalam wrote:
The Astronomican is a psychic radio, basically.

HH series again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Cypher- wrote:
While that may indeed be true, the fact that the Emperor was a powerful-beyond-belief psyker is well documented. If you want more on this read "A Thousand Sons". Magnus frequently speaks of his "Father's" psychic prowess,

That was exactly my point.

People SAY or THINK the Emperor is a potent psyker. He never does any great psychic works that are witnessed though.

The machines, devices, and people he built with science are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
the Emperor brought the entire Word Bearer Legion, and Primarch, to their knees with a single word, against their will.

I wonder where his magical submission power was when he needed it most: when they were knocking down his house with intent to kill him. He also never did this to anyone that wasn't a marine or primarch.

Space Marines are Primarchs were genetically coded to be loyal to him. The circumstances surrounding this event imply it was at the very limit of his abilities to do this to people coded for loyalty while he himself was under no actual duress.

It was simply beyond his means to do something like in any other circumstance. Hence, getting choked nearly to death by an Ork.

Ascalam wrote:
The Golden Throne was built as a life support device by the Ad-Mech AFTER he was crippled and ganked by Horus in the fluff I have. I'd not be shocked if they retconned in that he built it beforehand, but i've not read that anywhere.

The Astronomican is a psychic radio, basically. I doubt that HE personally built it. Again the ancient fluff i'm working off (mostly 1st/2nd ed) seems to suggest it was built around him, post death, but i suppose he could have built it. I'm not seeing any fluff i have around that suggests that either the astronomican or the Throne were his handiwork, but if it exists I wouldn;t mind reading it, if you could tell me where it is

At the beginning of "Mechanicum" (the 9th book in the Horus Heresy series) the Emperor comes to Mars. Before him kneels a Knight in, for lack of a better word, a mech (the machines themselves are called "Knights", but think of them as one-man and significantly smaller Titans). This particular Knight has a stubborn knee joint that, in the book, is described as being a chink on the machine spirit itself, and therefore nothing the techs could fix and completely remove. The way the opening is written, when the Emperor lays a hand on the Knight's outer carapace and instantly "heals" the machine, it is told in such a way as to convey that he was able to do it through complete and total understanding of how that worked. So much so that he was able to take fixing and making machines and engines past tools and into something different.

All that to say this: as a direct quote from the book, when first welcoming the Emperor to Mars the Knight (Verticorda was his name) looked into his eyes and "saw the wisdom of all the ages and burden of all knowledge contained within them,". The Emperor was indeed a genius. After this meeting some of the Machine Cult began immediately worshiping him as the Omnisiah so impressed were they with his understanding of machines.

And to answer your statements which I have quoted above, according to the newer fiction established in "A Thousand Sons" (the 12th book in the same series) it was the Emperor who drew up the plans and schematics for the Golden Throne, which incidentally, was a machine first designed for Magnus to seat and guide the IoM through the webway (which at this time was just being broken into by the Emperor in the heart of his fortress on Terra). It comes across to infer that the Throne was altered after the Emperor's wounds against Horus to be what it is now, and this was possible because when Magnus used the webway to confer with his "Father" he destroyed the entrance that the Emperor was working on and thus destroyed the initial purpose of the Throne.

As for the Astronomican it is to my understanding also a device that was to be used by Magnus in conference with the Throne, but was then also altered to become a beacon fueled by the Emperor's psychic powers to be a guiding light to be used by Man as it plied the warp.

On a side note, I highly encourage you to read the Horus Heresy novels. To get a concrete view on what the universe was like at that point in time is very entertaining.

Ah- looks like he's been retconned in by the novels as being an uber-tech-priest then. I stand corrected. Older fluff was less in this vein. He was a powerful mortal, not a god that could level buiildings with a punch or cow armies with a thought, let alone repair machines with a touch..

Remember the old story of the Emperor re-meeting Russ? He used a Powerfist to clunk him, not his bare hands He wasn't as powerful back then..


I'll have to checjk the books out Thanks for the references

Who's to say the Emperor couldn't be really good with machines and with his mind.


He probably learned alot during those 30k+ years he was in disguise, secretly manipulating human history.

VikingScott wrote:

Gogsnik wrote:
The Emperor imprisoned the Dragon by being awesome. in Mechanicum the Emperor battles the Dragon at some point during the reign of the Emperor Diocletian so sometime around the third or fourth century BC.

Bugger I thought Big E was St George killing that dragon.

He sort of was.

The idea/implication being that all "our" tales of brave knights riding off and defeating dragons are in fact half remembered myths/memories of this event.

reds8n wrote:
The idea/implication being that all "our" tales of brave knights riding off and defeating dragons are in fact half remembered myths/memories of this event.

Interesting. I'd never thought of it all in that light before, but now that you've said it clear as day, it makes sense.

*edited to fix quote.

Ascalam wrote:Ah- looks like he's been retconned in by the novels as being an uber-tech-priest then. I stand corrected. Older fluff was less in this vein

That isn't really true. The Emperor's scientific genius has always been part of his characterization. He built the Primarchs, Space Marines, and their wargear with science.

The advantage his army had during the Unification Wars was their advanced technology that he was responsible for.

And let's not forget the the driving idiom of the Great Crusade "There's nothing in the galaxy that can't be explained with science." Of course the Emperor knew that was a lie, but it's the truth he wanted his people to actually believe. So given the choice between magic and science, he chose science.

Maybe the new necron codex will have rules for 'cultists' or AdMech adepts or something?

I've been wanting to do a C'tan cultist IG army for a while. When i've collected my Necrons out I just might...

The Void Dragon may want to be free, but it is scared of the Nightbringer. it wants to stay in it's own environment where it can be strong. After all, if the Emperor beat the void dragon so easily, he could kill the Nightbringer. Also the Void Dragon absorbs the souls of the Mechanicus through their implants.

I would like to bring to you guys the attention that the necrons follow the Nightbringer and the Deciever and hate all other C'tan because and the nightbringer would just love to eat the void dragon up. Suck on them apples!

The nightbringer wants to ea everyone up, but it's not stupid, and the Deceiver is actually explicitly mentioned as realizing that it will need its brother c'tan around.

The necrons serving the Dragon and Outsider are likely still in stasis, or operating as unaffiliated tombworlds waiting for them to wake.

I'd not be shocked if the necrons were programmed to obey any C'tan without question, regardless of their loyalties pre-cybering. only the lords and possibly the Pariahs have any self-will by now anyway.

Whats the source for the necrons (not the C'tan, but the necron armies) hating the two remaining C'tan? I've not run across any suggestion of it fluffwise, but as has been proven further up the thread my fluff-knowledge is a little out of date.

Good question could have been, if it's a machine god of sorts and plainly hated the Emperor. How did we get the new technology out of it's lair? How did it produce new tech? By using raw materials or by using some sort of webway to smuggle in tech from another time and space?

cross_revert wrote:I'd just like to note that the dragon is "awake", he's just imprisoned.

+1

Ribon Fox wrote:For all we know the Omnissiah could just be an old copy of PCFormat magazine or a still operational page of Wikiedia, or may the Emperor forgive me 4chan /TG/!

Nice.

obsidianaura wrote:The Dragon is awake but trapped in the Noctis Labyrinth

It's guarded by a group called the Children of the Dragon.

Laodamia wrote:

obsidianaura wrote:The Dragon is awake but trapped in the Noctis Labyrinth

It's guarded by a group called the Children of the Dragon.

What exactly is this Noctis Labyrinth? Who are the Children of the Dragon?
How did Big E imprison the dragon? And When?

If the Dragon has been in jail for the past 10 000 years, he must be reeaaaally pissed off. And hungry.

Read HH Novel Mechanicus...

Also, the Void Dragon is just a name/reference... when you read the book you will understand more...

I find the Necron/ C'tan / Old Ones /Eldar all have a ridiculous amount of cross over. The big E wanted access to the Webway, used by the Eldar built by another race (read Old Ones?). The Eldar had gods who fought, the C'tan are Gods, are we all talking about the same things couldn't it be that they are the same thing....Vaul = Void Dragon = Dragon Imprisoned on Mars = Omnissah = Lord of Machines.

Khaine = Nightbringer?
Harlequins = Laughing God
Exodites = Outsider?

They say that Slaanesh ate them all the gods? Really? Or is that why they hate the Empyrean because they are in Slaanesh's realm?

If the C'tan hate the Empyrean and Warp then it would make sense that they had developed/used/interested in the Webway? I think they are all one and the same and each race has interpreted it differently. For all i know the Emperor might be trying to ascend as the 5th Chaos God, the Chaos caused by hope or Salvation.

I agree that there is a confusing amount of cross-over in the 40k history. GW and those authors who contribute to the history of 40k deliberately foster some confusion in order to keep "options open". I think the present explanation that all of this is due to thousands of years of rumor, inuendo, foggy memories of lost knowledge and outright lies is a pretty ingenious method of keeping things "fresh"... if seriously frustrating to ardent fans.

I personally like the thread of 40k history which sees the Emperor as the living embodiment of human psychic potential. Being that he was created by a band of very early psykers who volunteered (sacrificed) themselves in order to bring about the emperors birth. As these early psykers were convinced that their combined psychic essence would make him as powerful as possible because they were aware that the universe was a very dangerous place and humanity needed a protector. Whether they perceived the chaos gods or were given the idea by "other" players in the galactic arena I can't remember. This creation story is vaguely similar to the way the Eldar create the Avatar. The human version is created much less often (once so far), however, but to far greater effect. When seen from a certain angle, this is also how Slaanesh was created. Although the Emperor was created by individuals who volunteered for the greater good of humanity... and that is an important point I think.

This also explains why the primarchs personalities and abilities are all so different from each other... some dramatically so. They are all the living reflections of the individuals that made up the Emperors psychic potential of which there were apparently hundreds if not thousands. Humans are exceedingly varied in abilities and temperament and this is expressed in the extreme by the primarchs. Though they are still fairly rigid examples of an aspect of human experience since only 20 were created. I find it somewhat interesting that the Marines who are the primarchs genetic decendants exhibit penchants for certain types of combat or are, in fact, paragons of it and have certain world-views which is also (very vaguely so) reminiscent of Eldar aspect warriors. These traits are far more diffuse in humanity as a whole, but it still exists. If you consider the Primarchs and the marines as the diffuse expression of the Emperors psychic potential it begins to make a lot of fluffy sense.

One wonders if the history is ever moved beyond it's present stasis and the Emperor is "reborn" as has been intimated several times in the past, what will he be like then? As he is absorbing billions of individuals now. Hope in a grimdark future?! eh... probably not.

As far as the "Void Dragon" is concerned, from what I've read the Emperor defeated the Dragon and trapped it on Mars in order to eventually foster the culture that developed there after the Dark Age of Technology. Perhaps he knew what would happen to the far flung technologically advanced human race once our psychic potential reared its head? The void dragon was the Emperors "hole card" to be used to reignite technology after what he knew would be a catastrophic metamorphosis for the human race.

Since this happened so far in the past one wonders what effect the void dragon may have had on humanity in this "controlled" state during mankinds ascendance in the Galaxy. To what level was anyone aware that this being existed in the depths of Mars? The void dragon apparently tries feverently to release itself from captivity by using eons of time, patience and attempts to control lesser beings through psychic control expressed as technology where he succeeds. Perhaps the void dragon is the real "mother of invention".

Since I don't think the Emperor can truly "die" as we know it, who's to say what may happen?

Then again, the great inter-galactic vacuum cleaners have arrived. Maybe, the Emperor knew this would happen too and he figured he'd gather up all the "souls" of mankind and move them to the Warp in his safe keeping. Once the "scourge" has passed he'll start all over again...

Not to thought provoking perhaps, but hey, it's as plausible as anything else out there.

mwnciboo wrote:I find the Necron/ C'tan / Old Ones /Eldar all have a ridiculous amount of cross over. The big E wanted access to the Webway, used by the Eldar built by another race (read Old Ones?). The Eldar had gods who fought, the C'tan are Gods, are we all talking about the same things couldn't it be that they are the same thing....Vaul = Void Dragon = Dragon Imprisoned on Mars = Omnissah = Lord of Machines.

Khaine = Nightbringer?
Harlequins = Laughing God
Exodites = Outsider?

They say that Slaanesh ate them all the gods? Really? Or is that why they hate the Empyrean because they are in Slaanesh's realm?

If the C'tan hate the Empyrean and Warp then it would make sense that they had developed/used/interested in the Webway? I think they are all one and the same and each race has interpreted it differently. For all i know the Emperor might be trying to ascend as the 5th Chaos God, the Chaos caused by hope or Salvation.

They do have crossover, yes, but they're specifically said to have fought each other. There's a very long piece of fluff buried in the archives somewhere on the 'net that describes Khaine and the Nightbringer engaging in battle. Harlequins worship the Laughing God, they are not him. Exodites are definitely not the Outsider, as the Outsider is a C'Tan imprisoned in a Dyson Sphere by Harlequins, again this is in very old fluff.

Necrons hate the Empyrean because it is anathema to them. Necrons are soulless and cannot exist in the Warp whatsoever, it is the one thing they do not have mastery over.

The Old Ones and the C'Tan and Necrontyr fought a terrible war that involved the destruction of entire star systems, races being enslaved just to be terrorised for the sake of it and the bloodiest battles in the known history of the galaxy. If they are one and the same, then just about the entire Necron Codex is completely pointless.

Scarey Nerd wrote: ........If they are one and the same, then just about the entire Necron Codex is completely pointless.

This is funny, because it implies that GW cannot re-write Canon to suit whatever they are doing at the time, including writing out an entire race out of 40k (Squats). I used to remember everything when I was younger and pour over the Fluff for interesting morsoles and facts to try to make sense of it all...I think i have finally given up because there is no overarching thing that binds it all together it is so leaky that it wouldn't float, it really isn't watertight (which is probably a good thing!).

But I am fed up of constant references, counter references, un-referencable material hidden away somewhere, or a WD so old on the net thats say's "Ghazakull Thraka had a love child with a harlequin that a penchant for Anime and this is how the Tau Race was formed". I truly have given up trying to make sense of it, I'm just going to collect what I like and try to destroy other armies. Ignorance is Bliss..

I approve!

I actually like the Vaul idea at the start of this thread. It could be explained by a mistranslation of Necrontyr/Eldar history/prophecy.

Although the current C'tan on Mars is equally as good.

Vaul-Moon = forgeworld as I read it (which brings forth the dragon)..

Of course this is a human translation of an eldar prophecy, and said eldar aren't prone to crosschecking the translation, so it could mean anything

Combine it with the little story of a giant sarcophagus inside the noctis labyrinth, as seen by Abaddon (i think) from the codex and it would lean in that direction.

As long as we don't get any 'empire wins, hurrr!' fluff in our new codex, whenever it shows up, i'll be fairly content, but i'm not holding out a lot of hope there...

On a related note, friend of mine mentioned how he thinks they're going to put the Void Dragon into the new Necron Codex (I hope they do ). If the Children of the Dragon have the power to repair any machine by touch, and the Golden Throne has failed beyond the capability to repair of the Custodes or the Mechanicus, the current Guardian could leave Mars and come to Terra to repair the Throne. Emperor gets a pick-me-up, which caters for GW's main market, spesh mahreens, and Void Dragon can get loose. However, Void Dragon flees Solar system because... plot.

Just an idea...

That would require GW to advance the plot

They seem markedly unwilling to do so...

That said, It would be cool.

Ascalam wrote:That would require GW to advance the plot

They seem markedly unwilling to do so...

That said, It would be cool.

I agree that that would be unlikely, but if they're going to put in alliances between Necrons and Blood angels (), they owe Necron players big.

Azure wrote:
We know the Deceiver has infiltrated the Inquisition for quite some time and is masquerading as a bunch of high ups for the moment, but I don't think he'd be trying to get the Dragon worshiped. Remember, the C'tan hate each other so if anything I'd imagine him trying to get the Dragon destroyed as fast as possible.

Where is this from?

I've never heard of this?

(It's probably in the 'crons codex I'm guessing....)

VikingScott wrote:

Azure wrote:
We know the Deceiver has infiltrated the Inquisition for quite some time and is masquerading as a bunch of high ups for the moment, but I don't think he'd be trying to get the Dragon worshiped. Remember, the C'tan hate each other so if anything I'd imagine him trying to get the Dragon destroyed as fast as possible.

Where is this from?

I've never heard of this?

(It's probably in the 'crons codex I'm guessing....)

In the 'Cron codex, yes. He kills a Planetary Governor and assumes his form, corrupting the system until they send an assassin, whom he kills effortlessly.

the new Cron codex will likely have Essence's of the C'tan.


because the C'tan couldn't be everywhere at the same time, they would give Necron Lords portions of their power. they would assume the form and strength of a C'tan for a period of time.


so the Void Dragon could be in the codex, his essence.


of course, if the Void Dragon doesn't make it in, then my Vaul=Dragon theory has some weight. it would require GW to advance the story line for the Void Dragon to give his essence to a Necron Lord as it's been almost 40,000 years since the Void Dragon had contact with his forces(and as such most are likely sleeping)