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Dashofpepper wrote:
That's sort of my point - they don't do well against much. They don't have the strength to overwhelm assault units, the initiative to strike before anything, or the sheer volume of attacks that other methods of delivering orks has. They have guns, but if you want shooty orks either Lootas or shoota boyz are a better and cheaper means of delivering overwhelming firepower. =p

Ignoring nobs for the time being...

Firing on MEQs:

200 points of shoota boys is 33.33 boyz. That's 66.66 shots at a maximum threat range of 24". Of those shots, 22.22 are expected to hit, and you'll score 11.11 wounds, or 3.7 dead after saves.
200 points of warbikers is 8 bikers. That's 24 shots with a threat-range of 30". Of those shots, 13.33 would be expected to hit, yielding 8.88 wounds, 2.96 after saves.
200 points of lootas is 13.33. That's an average of 26.66 shots with a threat range of 48". Of those shots, 8.88 would be expected to hit, yielding 7.4 wounds, 2.46 after saves.

It seems to me that, against the most common infantry targets, that warbikes are a perfectly acceptable choice, coming in right in between the two units you cite as able to deliver overwhelming firepower. Obviously there are other considerations. Lootas have better range and pop transports. Shoota boys might spend for rokkits. Warbikers can out-maneuver either of these units though. Lootas are at risk to backfield-threat options, and are unable to move&shoot to get better shots when necessary. Shoota boyz can be unwieldy to move where you need them.

Firing on GEQ:
200 points of shoota boys is 33.33 boyz. That's 66.66 shots at a maximum threat range of 24". Of those shots, 22.22 are expected to hit, and you'll score 11.11 wounds, or 7.4 dead after saves.
200 points of lootas is 13.33. That's an average of 26.66 shots with a threat range of 48". Of those shots, 8.88 would be expected to hit, yielding 7.4 wounds, 7.4 after saves.
200 points of warbikers is 8 bikers. That's 24 shots with a threat-range of 30". Of those shots, 13.33 would be expected to hit, yielding 8.88 wounds, 8.88 after saves.

Warbikers are better at shooting against less armoured targets (in the open) than either of these other two units. What's more, they're maneuverable enough that you can often avoid the source of the cover, ensuring that these hits count. (Not always - sometimes they sit in area terrain).

Firing at vehicles:
Without rokkit upgrades, shoota boyz have little game against vehicles. With three rokkits, they expect .16 glances and .66 pens versus AV10, .16 glances and .5 pens against AV11, and so on.
The warbiker unit has 13.33 hits to work with, and expects 2.22 glances and 2.22 pens versus AV10, 2.22 glances versus AV11.
The lootas, with their 8.88 hits, expect 1.48 glances and 4.44 pens versus AV10, 1.48 glances and 2.96 pens versus AV11, and so on.

Lootas are clearly the best choice for light anti-vehicle duty - I don't think anyone doubts that. But warbikes are certainly capable of tackling AV10, and with their mobility, they can get those side shots on chimeras when necessary.

As a shooty unit, I think they stack up fairly well, point-for-point with shoota boyz, and even with lootas when fighting against models with saves. They're not designed for anti-vehicle shooting, but can go after light vehicles when necessary.

Redbeard wrote:
snip
It seems to me that, against the most common infantry targets, that warbikes are a perfectly acceptable choice, coming in right in between the two units you cite as able to deliver overwhelming firepower. Obviously there are other considerations. Lootas have better range and pop transports. Shoota boys might spend for rokkits. Warbikers can out-maneuver either of these units though. Lootas are at risk to backfield-threat options, and are unable to move&shoot to get better shots when necessary. Shoota boyz can be unwieldy to move where you need them.

snip

Warbikers are better at shooting against less armoured targets (in the open) than either of these other two units. What's more, they're maneuverable enough that you can often avoid the source of the cover, ensuring that these hits count. (Not always - sometimes they sit in area terrain).

snip

Lootas are clearly the best choice for light anti-vehicle duty - I don't think anyone doubts that. But warbikes are certainly capable of tackling AV10, and with their mobility, they can get those side shots on chimeras when necessary.

As a shooty unit, I think they stack up fairly well, point-for-point with shoota boyz, and even with lootas when fighting against models with saves. They're not designed for anti-vehicle shooting, but can go after light vehicles when necessary.

Nicely done. I think we would have to cover assault threat range too, something that Warbikers are better at. They can move out, shoot a fair bit and then assault at a great threat range, something that the other two can't. Also, Warbikers can be effective on their own in DoW (which has been mentioned previously) and can be more survivable with turbo-boosting.

Warbikers shoot the bejezus out of Genestealers, Wyches, and other High-Init targets which can deal a lot of wounds to Boyz before the boyz get to swing. And while they have a significant pricetag, they don't compete for slots with Lootas or Shoota boyz.

I have been torn apart by them before but also shot them down like dogs. They aren't a terrible unit, but they ares greater than most. Use sparingly.

Dashofpepper wrote:9 warbikers with a nob biker who has a powerklaw and a bosspole: 290 points.

A battlewagon (with a deffrolla, and a big shoota): 115 points
20 Boyz with sluggas and choppas, a nob with a powerklaw and a bosspole - 160 points

275 points.

9 warbikers have a 3+ cover save turbo-boosting up the field, or 4+ cover saves if they don't.
Boyz in a battlewagon can't be shot at. And their wagon is probably supported by other wagons, one of which is providing a 4+ cover save to the boyz wagon....whereas those bikers are probably running up the field unsupported.

My 20 boyz and their deffrolla would be happy to meet your 10 warbikers. =D

One lascannon shot that pens ruins that 20boyz battle wagon's day. One lascannon shot does not on the warbikes.

Yes that battlewagon can be supported. But your assumption is that the warbikes is not is flawed. It could or could not be supported, which is generally a point in warbikes favor. Who's to say that they arent running along side a battle wagon or two?

Y

The reason that I want to run a warbiker list at Adepticon, aside from that I haven't run one since 3rd ed, and I've got a ton of warbikes that I converted... is that I see more deployment tricks going on.

Dark Eldar are fast, but crunchy if you can get them first. I don't have to engage with warbikers, and I can shoot down their ships with my guns as well as their troops.

Guard - I can side-shoot their chimeras, and avoid their alpha-strikes by reserving

Nids - I think the nid builds that work will involve stealers, hoppies and other things i'd rather shoot than assault.

Blood Angels/DoA - they come down, and I need to be able to react. Also, if they land before I arrive, I can go to a different point on the table and try to gain local superiority.

Daemons - same deal. If I can reserve up and see where he's going, I take away some of his game. I have guns that can mess up fiends and I can avoid crushers until I've whittled them down some.

Space Wolves - again, if reserve, I can avoid alpha-strikes from shooty wolves, and try and take advantage of a 3+ save the turn I show up. My guns aren't horrible against thunderwolves, and ignore expensive stormshields.


My tentative list is something like:
HQ: Wazdakka
HQ: warboss w/ powerklaw, bike, cybork
Elite: snikrot+ 9 boyz + 2 burnas
Troops: varied nob bikers. 6 I think
Troops: 7 warbikes + pk/bosspole nob
Troops: 8 warbikes + pk/bosspole nob
Troops: 20 sluggas, 2 rokkits, nob w/ pk/bosspole
Fast: 2 rokkit buggies
Heavy: Battlewagon: armour plates, plank, rolla, grot, kannon&big shoota

I've got no static elements at all. Everyone is moving.
I don't really playtest. I don't care that much. I haven't even finished painting my bikes, let alone run them. But, in my head, this seems like a solid approach. If it doesn't work, at least I looked good dying. I've already done kans, battlewagons and green-tide orks. I have more fun doing new things, even losing, than I do by winning games using the same rote strategies game after game.

Mannahnin wrote:Warbikers shoot the bejezus out of Genestealers, Wyches, and other High-Init targets which can deal a lot of wounds to Boyz before the boyz get to swing. And while they have a significant pricetag, they don't compete for slots with Lootas or Shoota boyz.

Thats one of their bigger attractions. Moble gunplatforms that dont compete for the highly contested elite slots, and their not bad in combat- because in general their mobile enough to pick their targets. They do have down sides. LD being one of them.

Redbeard wrote:I have more fun doing new things, even losing, than I do by winning games using the same rote strategies game after game.

Yay! This. I love lists and games where you mess with your opponents deployment / plan by doing something entirely different / unexpected.

Side Note:
I wish that you could buy a reserve enhancing power for KoS armies. That'd be a pretty cool shtick, if Biker Orks got to enhance reserve rolls or even an alternate deployment type where they roll on first turn (like DoW).

I think the LD issue is overblown when you consider the Bosspole. A re-rolled Ld8 test is what, 7.8% chance of failure? That's basically the same as being Ld10.

Redbeard- I don't immediately see any flaws in your reasoning. Sounds good to me. Can't wait to see how you do!

I think that part of the problem of the discussion here, is not in the units or their ability to kill, but rather in the way that tournaments are scored.

1) Most tournaments use a Major/minor victory system.

2) To win a tournament, you generally need to get maximum points in all of your games.

3) the easiest way to get maximum points is to table your opponent, regardless of the mission type.

I think that is why the "top tier lists" are generally list designed to table the opponent rather than simply win the game.


Ork Boys, when compared to Warbikers, even the shoota ones are better at tabling someone because of how decisive the assault phase can be. It is easier to destroy entire units (sweeping advance/routing vs. morale checks in the shooting phase and cover saves) and it is the ONLY phase where one unit can deal damage to multiple enemy units.

Warbikers offer a different kind of mobility than the BW boys. Their mobility can not be destroyed until the entire unit is gone. Turbo-boosting to objectives is a great way to contest them on the last turn, or even take them if you have Wazdakka.


Are Warbikers the "best"? Well that is no, but they do have some advantages over regular boys that may cater to a player's personal style better. It is not like it has the same stats as an Ork boy, but cost 9 pts and cannot score. We have seen that they have some shooting ability combined with a good amount of movement and the potential to score. They are Decent. They have a use on the battlefield, but they cost a few too many points for them to make the cut in a tournament list.

@Dash.

I think that you look at units only in terms of their utility in tournaments, which for you means tabling someone. I think that there is a big difference between a tournament and a "regular" game. I do know however that it is your mission to try and offer what you feel is the best advice to people on this forum, but I think you should realize that your advice is colored by your experiences with the game. Your Style of play, Your Meta-game, Your battle experiences.

The Ork Codex has been around long enough for everyone to know what the "best tournament lists" are. They are Kanwall and BW rush. Everyone probably knows that you should only ever take Kans or BW for Heavy, Koptas or Buggies for Fast, and Nobs, Commandos or Burnas for Elite, and the rest of the units are not as competitive as these.

I do not think that is needs to be your mission to make sure that everyone leaves DakkaDakka with a tournament capable list. Just say that Warbikers are not as good as some other options and leave it at that. In the end, this is a forum, a place for people to share their opinions. You opinion already carries more weight than most due to your Tournament record and Battle Reports, and you don't need to challenge people to prove it.; You already have.

svendrex wrote:

@Dash.

Just say that Warbikers are not as good as some other options and leave it at that.

I agree with everything else you said....and this is how I started out. Then folks started defending warbikers like no tomorrow. =p

I'll voice my opinion and come down squarely on the side of warbikers are good. HOWEVER, they are good like any most other units in any other codex: Within a list that is built to support them and whatever shortfalls that unit may have (lets just pretend that certain units don't exist, like the deathstrike, ethereals, pariahs etc.). Sticking warbikers in a list that isn't supporting them will quickly garner poor opinions and quick dismissal. As a small unit they act in a much more supportive role, focusing on units around their size. Take 3 bikers +nob with pk and bosspole: they can tackle combat squads (from opened transports or objective sitters), long fangs, weakened (non cc) mcs and combined charges into more full units of tactical squads or moderate CC troops such as assault squads.

At 140 points it's cheap enough to take several of while including the support you need in the rest of the list to open transports. At 1500 its easy to fit in 4 with wazzdakka + some other cheap troop like grots and build a very well rounded list from there as well. At 2000 you can go all the way to 6 like stelek did in his most recent ork list or you can pull it back a little to 5 and have a different kind of support element to the army. I don't find that orks scale well above 2000 and I'm not sure of an effective way to make them at this time with the models I have. (Personal experience/observation) It seems like most ork lists at 2500 rely on a few things that can just be wiped out in one turn of slightly below average dice rolling.

As I've been practicing with my warbiker lists I've been finding that they require a lot more finesse to use than your typical ork unit and if you're not able to take full advantage of their mobility you're really hampering the use of them. Now, there are some bad matchups for warbiker heavy armies, and I don't mean auto-lose, I just mean it will be a struggle. High volume moderately strong (str6+) firepower is a problem (or masses of poison shots), as a 4+ on smallish units doesn't go as far as one would hope generally. Also to be more clear when I say masses I mean 8+ units able to hurt you from turn 1, but it will generally come down to the table you're playing on to determine whether or not you'll be able to weather the fire as you close the distance while popping enough transports or have other target saturation that those weapons would equally like to shoot at.

@Dash: I've got another warbiker list to play against you. You were right, ultimately the list was subpar, but like you I need experience with something before I'll write it off and warbikers are still far from written off in my book. I've found through playing a wide variety of different armies that warbikers have to be used differently than your typical ork list. You are correct that they were not particularly strong in the way I was using them and I've been refining my list as I go.

While I may not be confident enough in my playing ability to put my money where my mouth is I'll happily play you on Vassal again in an attempt to showcase that warbikers are not a bad unit. (Actually I may be able to play you IRL some point as well as my fiance has family near Shreveport that she wants to visit this year). Especially now that I've had a chance to get used to what warbikers are capable of and what they aren't.

The thing is that they're just a boyz mob with better firepower. For my boyz mobs I take a nob with a PK if i wanna blow up some tanks. But not so much for asaulting infantry ( unless they are ridiculously armoured. So it really depends on what you want to do with them.

Dashofpepper wrote:

I agree with everything else you said....and this is how I started out. Then folks started defending warbikers like no tomorrow. =p

I understand, It is very easy for these things to spiral out of control, especially as it is very hard to communicate things tone using only text.

TNM wrote:The thing is that they're just a boyz mob with better firepower. For my boyz mobs I take a nob with a PK if i wanna blow up some tanks. But not so much for assaulting infantry ( unless they are ridiculously armored. So it really depends on what you want to do with them.

And MUCH better mobility, self generating cover, and are t5(4). Assaulting to kill tanks is also a very bad way to use boys or nobs with PKs.

Redbeard wrote:Space Wolves - again, if reserve, I can avoid alpha-strikes from shooty wolves, and try and take advantage of a 3+ save the turn I show up. My guns aren't horrible against thunderwolves, and ignore expensive stormshields.

Except that if you can shoot at them, you are within charge range for the next assault.

striderx wrote:Except that if you can shoot at them, you are within charge range for the next assault.

18" range on the dakkaguns.

Any infantry unit not mounted in a transport can move 6", up to 6" for a run, and then can only charge if they have the fleet rule. That is hardly an 18" assault range. If they are mounted in a transport, i'd more than likely surround the damn thing so that the unit inside couldn't get out while my nob ripped it open with a PK. And is that still a rule that if passengers cant disembark from a destroyed vehicle that they are automatically killed?

If were talking about thunderwolf cavalry, well you were outmatched to begin with...in that case its just better to shoot at them or avoid them to mitigate casualties.

I think the thunderwolves will kill at least one squad, but you can ensure that it's not more than that because you can place them so that they limit the wolves movement.

In the first round of shooting, you would try to put all your guns on them (from all three bike units), leaving the smallest bike unit as close to the wolves as you can, and stringing them out in a line. With each bike being as long as it is, if you turn them sideways, you create a line that the wolves cannot run through. They'll charge that unit of bikes, but not the rest.

So, in the first round of shooting, versus T5/3+, you're probably putting 6 or 7 wounds on them between all your bikes shooting. Then you lose the 8 bikes, maybe doing a wound with the nob on the way out. Then you shoot them again, this time charging in with the nobs to clear out any survivors.

Of course, if the wolf player has gone all-in on wolf lords, then the deathstar is even scarier, but that's a lot of points in one unit that doesn't move all that fast unless it is given something to charge. In that case, I think the best course of action is to try and kill his troops and avoid the cav, maybe throwing them something sacrificial to draw them away from where you want the real fight to take place.

gpfunk wrote:Any infantry unit not mounted in a transport can move 6", up to 6" for a run, and then can only charge if they have the fleet rule. That is hardly an 18" assault range.

My comments was on the shooting of TWC. TWC are calvary, and can charge up to 12", and have fleet, you know that right?

striderx wrote:

gpfunk wrote:Any infantry unit not mounted in a transport can move 6", up to 6" for a run, and then can only charge if they have the fleet rule. That is hardly an 18" assault range.

My comments was on the shooting of TWC. TWC are calvary, and can charge up to 12", and have fleet, you know that right?

The second half of that post was in reference to the TWC, about being outmatched anyway. But you did read the whole thing, right?

Redbeard wrote:They're pretty good for ork mobility and firepower - but their main weakness is their Leadership. Testing on a 7+, even with a bosspole re-roll is just not forgiving with a unit that falls back 3d6".

What about putting a warboss in the unit? That would up their LD to 9.

For 125 points that gives you an extra 5 PK attacks on the charge. If you used the warboss instead of Nob with bosspole and PK, that would save you 65 points (bike + nob + PK + bosspole).
That would put 11 bikes + the warboss at 400 points. 12 bikes with the nob would be 340 points. For those 60 points you get an IC with 3 wounds T5(6) and an extra PK attack.

(Note -- the biggest concern at that point is that ~400 points is a serious point sink. At what point is it worth it to move to nobs on bikes)

labmouse42 wrote:

Redbeard wrote:They're pretty good for ork mobility and firepower - but their main weakness is their Leadership. Testing on a 7+, even with a bosspole re-roll is just not forgiving with a unit that falls back 3d6".

What about putting a warboss in the unit? That would up their LD to 9.

For 125 points that gives you an extra 5 PK attacks on the charge. If you used the warboss instead of Nob with bosspole and PK, that would save you 65 points (bike + nob + PK + bosspole).
That would put 11 bikes + the warboss at 400 points. 12 bikes with the nob would be 340 points. For those 60 points you get an IC with 3 wounds T5(6) and an extra PK attack.

(Note -- the biggest concern at that point is that ~400 points is a serious point sink. At what point is it worth it to move to nobs on bikes)

It's a rather big drawback which I guess is why Dash doesn't recommend them mostly. I'd rather have a squad of 9 bikers with biker nob- that comes to 265pts so not as bad. Still lots of bodies to chuck about and lots of dakka, just not as big a points sink as it can easily be.

I've used two squads 6 bikers with nob leader, then again I do play a rather "dummed down" version of 40k (missing out most of the rules, but our group's building up to them). So okay my experiences are a tad flawed but hey units of 6 don't get noticed til I hit the enemy lines, which is neat.

The unit of 2 Warbiker and a Nob with a powerklaw and bosspole, will be referred to as 2:1 Biker Klaw in this post because that is a long name for a unit.

I firmly believe that increasing the amount of warbikers in a warbikers unit is not cost effective. The most effective I have seen warbikers have been as a cheap harass unit in place of buggies to hunt vehicles (think fast moving powerklaw)... The reason why I saw them was because the guy had no buggies and was already running a unit of deff koptas...

It was sorta effective because he could hide it behind battle wagons and trukks, as well as fling them out of reserve and be in the fight that turn or so, but I stand to say that rokkit buggies are better because their are more things you can do with them, such as block off TWC by moving 12" in front of them. This limits the TWC ability to hit what they want to (Your Nobz, your scoring unit on the last turn), and in HTH they need a 6s to hit instead of a 3+ to 4+.

Shooting at the blockading buggies is also harder then shooting at the blockading bikes. Heavy bolters require a 5 to glance and a 6 to punch, followed by a 3+ (Punch)/ 5+ (glance) to wreck while only a 4+ to wound the bikers. The 4+ cover save benefits both bike and buggy.

With this in mind, the buggies are surprisingly difficult to destroy as you can continue to allocate further dice to a shaken or weapon destroyed buggy.

Offensively:
2:1 Biker Klaw: Has 9 TL-Big Shoota shots, that on average result in 5 hits... In addition, the 2:1 Biker Klaw is toughness 5 and can tie up devastator like units, unfortunately the deffkopta already does this for the same amount of points and wounds (2 koptas, 2 TL- Rokkits, 1 Buzz Saw) and is much faster (turn 1 charge). In exchange for this speed trade off, the 2:1 Biker Klaw has a +2 to its strength and an extra attack.

Now if taken as troops, this presents some interesting tactical options. Mainly extra 2:1 Biker Klaw taken from the troop allowance instead of the fast attack allowing for 3-6 buggies and 1-2 teams of deff koptas, while allowing the ork player to reserve a fast moving scoring unit. However the problem with this lies in this also takes up a valuable HQ choice. This would mean that the other HQ choice would be a KFF mek as the list that supports bikes the best is a battlewagon list as it gives them a place to hide. Another problem, touched on earlier was the survivability, mainly it gives up a kill point.

It could be said that the buzz kopta team does the same but 9/10 times it trades a kill point for a kill point or pays for itself in robbing the opponent of their mobility/firepower. The 2:1 Biker Klaw has little garuntee with its, relative to the deff kopta's scout turbo boost, lack of speed that complete its objective of killing vehicles.

And QuietOrkmi takes up the voice of wisdom after Dash has long since pulled out. Go get em Quiet! I'm actually hoping that there's a wave of "Warbikers are cool!" that happens, and that it displays itself at tournaments that I'm at, preferably against me.

As a new player, I honestly had no real concept of the utility of a warbuggy squadron. Hearing that explained so well was actually quite enlightening.

I recently purchased a battle wagon, and have two trukks still on the sprue so i'm sure with a little gerry-rigging I could make some buggies from that.

Thank you all for the spirited argument.

gpfunk wrote:As a new player, I honestly had no real concept of the utility of a warbuggy squadron. Hearing that explained so well was actually quite enlightening.

I recently purchased a battle wagon, and have two trukks still on the sprue so i'm sure with a little gerry-rigging I could make some buggies from that.

Thank you all for the spirited argument.

Hi! Preface that I'm soddered of my lid on tequila at the moment, so if this doens't make sense I apoloize.

And sufff.

Buggies are fantastic for screening those battlewagons that you purchased from assaults. The rokkits are nice, the real utility is in having a unit that can screen you against alpha strikes in case you don't go first. If you check out my signature where I make an equally excpetional effot to stay drunk during my games, you can see how I write battle reports about how my warguggies interact with my army. I don't realyly now what I'syaging anymore.

Using cheap fast moving vehicles as movement and assault blockers and screens is something you see a lot from good competitive players, but is generally overlooked by most newer or more casual players.

"Sigh"

I'll stick with me warbikers regardless and hope someone else like Redbeard sees some more practical sense out of them.

*bails thread*

gpfunk wrote:

striderx wrote:

gpfunk wrote:Any infantry unit not mounted in a transport can move 6", up to 6" for a run, and then can only charge if they have the fleet rule. That is hardly an 18" assault range.

My comments was on the shooting of TWC. TWC are calvary, and can charge up to 12", and have fleet, you know that right?

The second half of that post was in reference to the TWC, about being outmatched anyway. But you did read the whole thing, right?

Well, then the 2nd part don't make much sense to me, because be it avoiding them to mitigate casualties or shooting them and then dying, both are bad ways to throw away the game.
But since you mentioned that you are a new player, then well...

striderx wrote:

gpfunk wrote:

striderx wrote:

gpfunk wrote:Any infantry unit not mounted in a transport can move 6", up to 6" for a run, and then can only charge if they have the fleet rule. That is hardly an 18" assault range.

My comments was on the shooting of TWC. TWC are calvary, and can charge up to 12", and have fleet, you know that right?

The second half of that post was in reference to the TWC, about being outmatched anyway. But you did read the whole thing, right?

Well, then the 2nd part don't make much sense to me, because be it avoiding them to mitigate casualties or shooting them and then dying, both are bad ways to throw away the game.
But since you mentioned that you are a new player, then well...

Neither does a bit of your grammar. But hey, whos keeping score?

I don't think that side stepping units is a way to throw away the game per se. Bikes have very good mobility and can generally choose when they engage the enemy. By choosing to have a weaker unit avoid a stronger one doesn't seem like a way to lose a game.

Throwing away points on a fight you can't win does.

Consider all the other units in the ork codex that could do damage to TWC, i'm sure a seasoned ork player has more than one in his army that could deal with them. Best to let them handle it, and get your bikes to other fodder that they can actually kill.