Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I don't think that side stepping units is a way to throw away the game per se. Bikes have very good mobility and can generally choose when they engage the enemy. By choosing to have a weaker unit avoid a stronger one doesn't seem like a way to lose a game.

The only problem is that you spent a lot of points on a unit that can only handle units vastly weaker then it... The main question on my mind would then be, if you were to go past the 2:1 Biker klaw for hunting things that do not fight back (Vehicles) and things that are not very good in HTH but excellent in shooting (devestators), What would be the ideal target? The problem with increasing the size of the warbiker unit is that its main target never really changes from when their was 2 of them and a Nob with a powerklaw to when there is 11 of them and a Nob with a powerklaw. In fact, it could be argued that they are less effective because of the larger footprint, the difficulty in hiding 12 bikes to the difficulty of hiding 3 of them. Sure there would be more wounds to soak up incoming fire but you have more incoming fire because units can draw line of sight to them, then their is still the morale problem...

From the Ork codex, the vest way I could think to destroy TWC would be to shoot it with lootas or burnas from a battlewagon if they all had 3++ saves on top of their 3+ saves. Remember Shoota daoppa and Choppa the Shoota!

The battlewagon moved 6" so needs 4+ to hit and the flamers are bound to hit 3 TWC models resulting in about 30+ S4 hits, against the T5, this is about 10 wounds... Even if they were complexed, a unit of 5 takes 2 wounds on every model. Statiscally 1/9 of them will fail both their 3+ saves while 4/9 of them suffer 1 wound. Even if their is 5 of them, that is .555 of them dead, 2.222 with one wound left and 2.222 unharmed... Our greatest strength is not punching terminator armor but reminding the terminator that exist by having them roll 15 dice.

I have to say, whilst this arguing (er discussion) seems pointless to vets, for us people returning to the game or newer players it is very helpful. I read dash's tactica and had pretty much written off warbikers (as well as warbuggies, they seemed too brittle to me), now however i think that bikes can be far more useful than i had considered.The same remains true of warbuggies. Thanx to you all

I now expect every forum argument to be prefaced with "in the interests of all new players it is important to point out"

Bikes in large units are bad. Minimum size squad can do what none of the other Fast attack choice can. Because have a +4 cover save no matter how fast they move and they can turbo boost for a +3 up cover save they don't need to stay with within range of the KFF. They can push a flank on your opponent leaving your opponent some bad choices to make, either divert some fire into the bikers or keep trying to stop your Wagon/Trukk Rush. It's a win/win either way. They preform the same role as a Deffkopta with a buzzsaw but have a bit more durability from shooting because of the coversave and the bosspole when you do lose a model or two.

Bullockist wrote:I have to say, whilst this arguing (er discussion) seems pointless to vets, for us people returning to the game or newer players it is very helpful. I read dash's tactica and had pretty much written off warbikers (as well as warbuggies, they seemed too brittle to me), now however i think that bikes can be far more useful than i had considered.The same remains true of warbuggies. Thanx to you all

I now expect every forum argument to be prefaced with "in the interests of all new players it is important to point out"

I haven't written a tactica.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Bullockist wrote:I have to say, whilst this arguing (er discussion) seems pointless to vets, for us people returning to the game or newer players it is very helpful. I read dash's tactica and had pretty much written off warbikers (as well as warbuggies, they seemed too brittle to me), now however i think that bikes can be far more useful than i had considered.The same remains true of warbuggies. Thanx to you all

I now expect every forum argument to be prefaced with "in the interests of all new players it is important to point out"

I haven't written a tactica.

Or HAVE you?? Bum bum bummmmmm.

Dash - I think he was just referring to your 'body of written works'. which is substantial and a good read.

I am enjoying the discussion too. I know they are not an optimal choice - but I am going to run them anyway too. I have been running 3X Battlewagons or 3X Shooty Mobs for a long time and I just want to change things up. Same reason my next list in my local league is a Flash Gitz army.

This has given me some great ideas. I am going to run a BW/Truck list with Bikes. You don't have to talk us out of running Bikes, we are going to.

QuietOrkmi wrote:

I don't think that side stepping units is a way to throw away the game per se. Bikes have very good mobility and can generally choose when they engage the enemy. By choosing to have a weaker unit avoid a stronger one doesn't seem like a way to lose a game.

The only problem is that you spent a lot of points on a unit that can only handle units vastly weaker then it... The main question on my mind would then be, if you were to go past the 2:1 Biker klaw for hunting things that do not fight back (Vehicles) and things that are not very good in HTH but excellent in shooting (devestators), What would be the ideal target? The problem with increasing the size of the warbiker unit is that its main target never really changes from when their was 2 of them and a Nob with a powerklaw to when there is 11 of them and a Nob with a powerklaw. In fact, it could be argued that they are less effective because of the larger footprint, the difficulty in hiding 12 bikes to the difficulty of hiding 3 of them. Sure there would be more wounds to soak up incoming fire but you have more incoming fire because units can draw line of sight to them, then their is still the morale problem...

From the Ork codex, the vest way I could think to destroy TWC would be to shoot it with lootas or burnas from a battlewagon if they all had 3++ saves on top of their 3+ saves. Remember Shoota daoppa and Choppa the Shoota!

The battlewagon moved 6" so needs 4+ to hit and the flamers are bound to hit 3 TWC models resulting in about 30+ S4 hits, against the T5, this is about 10 wounds... Even if they were complexed, a unit of 5 takes 2 wounds on every model. Statiscally 1/9 of them will fail both their 3+ saves while 4/9 of them suffer 1 wound. Even if their is 5 of them, that is .555 of them dead, 2.222 with one wound left and 2.222 unharmed... Our greatest strength is not punching terminator armor but reminding the terminator that exist by having them roll 15 dice.

It's better then that, they have one chance at a 3+ not two.

Assuming 12 burnas + mek in battle wagon

4 models hit = 52 hits

17.3 wounds

5.77 wounds

so at least two dead and another likely to be dead or have one wound left

gpfunk wrote:Neither does a bit of your grammar. But hey, whos keeping score?

I m sorry for you that you have comprehension problem, but hei I can't help it. I don't know how to stoop down to your level to aid your understanding.

gpfunk wrote:Consider all the other units in the ork codex that could do damage to TWC, i'm sure a seasoned ork player has more than one in his army that could deal with them. Best to let them handle it, and get your bikes to other fodder that they can actually kill.

Using something that is 25pts a model as fodder? Wow, what a fat fodder If that's what you have picked up as a new player, then maybe you want to visit the Nova for some eye opener. If you already are, then excellent.

DashofPepper has valid points. But I also think warbikers are a matter of personal preference over other things.

I knew back a few years when Dash ran 5 man loota squads people questioned his choices. But it was his personal preference of style in play and I know people who have done warbikers and were successful.

I been using BikerBoyz for 10 years since the Armageddon codex came out and I can tell you they used to be a lot better! But I won't bore you with the details.

Today I use them at 75 for the 3 points, 90 for the nob with pole, and 115 with the 2:1 pole/klaw. They are a fantastic distraction unit. The only other Fast Attack I use are 1-off Rokkit Trakks at 40 points x3 mobs or if I want to use bikes, then 2 units of 1 of the options listed above and then put the 3 rokkit trakks into one unit for 120 points. I like to max out fast attack with cheap options.

I used to run BikerBoss with 11 BikerBoyz and BikerNob but stopped when 5th came out. I will never use that unit again in a competitive game with the current 5th edition rules and/or the current codex. At those points it draws way too much attention and firepower and dies instantly whereas the units of 3 commonly last most of the game now!!!

Same with Lootas: 15 are an important target for my opponents and die quickly while my 2 5-ork mobs routinely finish games.

Anywho, they are quite cost efficient when you consider the cost of a 4+ save 'Ard boyz is X points, add on a higher accuacry BS which equates to 8.333 points, consider that a naked Trukk for Boyz cost 3 points per model, throw in T5 and the cover save and the 25 points is a good deal.

For me the 2 biggest drawbacks are poor LD (the 3rd edition were Fearless!!!) and the fact that they must assault in a straight line and a lot of the things I want to assault are in cover and I have to take that stupid dangerous terrain test!!! So essentially I use them for mostly shooty and very rarely assaulty but always distracty

I hope this helped the OP if he or she can understand this old man's ramblings. . .

striderx wrote:

gpfunk wrote:Neither does a bit of your grammar. But hey, whos keeping score?

I m sorry for you that you have comprehension problem, but hei I can't help it. I don't know how to stoop down to your level to aid your understanding.

gpfunk wrote:Consider all the other units in the ork codex that could do damage to TWC, i'm sure a seasoned ork player has more than one in his army that could deal with them. Best to let them handle it, and get your bikes to other fodder that they can actually kill.

Using something that is 25pts a model as fodder? Wow, what a fat fodder If that's what you have picked up as a new player, then maybe you want to visit the Nova for some eye opener. If you already are, then excellent.

In an attempt to not turn this into a mindless argument I will not point out the fact that you can't seem to take the time to check your spelling, or the fact that you completely misread my post. Thanks for your input!

So bottom line is warbikers suck due to poor grammar... would you kids take it to PM's

Agreed, you can always tell when someone has run out of arguing steam, when they resort to insulting grammar and sentence structure. Seriously boys, how exactly does this help the discussion?

gpfunk wrote:
In an attempt to not turn this into a mindless argument I will not point out the fact that you can't seem to take the time to check your spelling, or the fact that you completely misread my post. Thanks for your input!

LOL, young boy, what a way to present your argument . And seriously if there is anything wrong with my spelling, it's probably because you don't recognise the word.
You've proven yourself, good job

And once more, when a discussion devolves from talking about the subject, to talking about the people talking about each other, then it's definitely dead.

I think even the 3 biker unit sucks the big balls for its points. It is only good if your opponent doesn't shoot it.

If it takes but one wound, it must test LD on 7. With a bosspole, you sacrifice the 2nd ork just to save the nob. No thanks.

Well with warbikers its not so bad rerolling a LD, I mean their armor save is 4+ They DO have uses, and Im sure would be a blast to play, specially since you never see them. Its like FlashGits for me, they are a blast to play, when we are just goofing around Ill take them, and sometimes they do surprising things. But like said many times in this discussion, there is certainly better things to take in the Heavy Support then a FlashGits mob, and their is certainly better things in the Fast Attack then bikers.

But we shall see how effective they really can be when Redbeard takes his to that tourny. I think most things, it really depends on who/how they are played, as always even a super tooled up list, in the hands of a not so good player, will suck, and a suck build in the hands of a capable player can do good. I think we all will be surprised after that tourny with Redbeards biker mobs. Thats one of those things, where no one ever uses them, so everyone else isnt familiar with them. And that can be a pretty big advantage

I have seen biker armies in video battle reports. the ork army always get tabled.

In their defense, that player may suck. But it sure looks like they move up, shoot and assault to devestating effects, then get assaulted and killed.

bucheonman wrote:I have seen biker armies in video battle reports. the ork army always get tabled.

In their defense, that player may suck. But it sure looks like they move up, shoot and assault to devestating effects, then get assaulted and killed.

In all fairness, you could take the reference to ork bikers out, and apply that statement to any ork unit (they move up shoot and assault to devastating effects, then get assaulted and killed.)

Orks belong on the assault, not getting assaulted. =p

I just believe that Ork assaults need to be decisive. They need to get the job done. If we're talking about massed warbikers, they can't do what a battlewagon of 20 boyz can do. Or a unit of nobs in a battlewagon.

I can see the reason why people would take 3 warbikers (one being a nob) as a distraction unit and to get some anti-tank duty in.....but since they can't scout, they can't do it on turn1 like a deffkopta, so ther's no tying up longfangs / shaking/stunning/wrecking predators/razorbacks on turn1 before they've had a chance to do anything.

As a screening unit I suppose a unit of warbikers can screen against assaults, but not only do warbuggies get the same save (4+), but they're also much harder to kill. A bolter needs a 6 to glance, not a 5 to wound, and even if shots get through the save, it isn't an automatically dead model. I love shaken warbuggies. =D

I made the mistake of engaging in a unit- vs. unit comparison in a vacuum somewhere much earlier, and I shouldn't have because that's never the case. Every potential role that a warbiker can fill in an army, can be done better, more effectively, or for less points and just as effectively somewhere else in the army - in some cases more than one of those things at a time.

A nob on a bike with a couple of warbikers tagging along might ultimately be more effective at assaulting a ravager out of the sky because of the STR9 powerklaw (if you can hit it), or a Baal predator, or a regular predator or....etc - but there's an opportunity cost. Those dark lances / lascannons / autocannons got to fire for at least a turn. What if that's a battlewagon exploded that otherwise wouldn't have been fired at because the tank was shaken+?

When everything gets added together, there are just better ways to spend points.

Like on what Dash? As an Ork vet and obviously having much experience and (questionable at times) knowledge, how would fill a Fast Attack slot (or 3) in a speed freaks/ evil sunz style army?

Probably like most Ork players fill them, with Warbuggies or Deffcoptas. It even stays in the fluff, because those two vehicles (heck, most of the fast attack other than Stormboyz) are fast, noisy vehickles.

Fluff wise it makes sense, but lets see what the "Masterful Ork Tactician" has to say.

Juvieus Kaine wrote:Fluff wise it makes sense, but lets see what the "Masterful Ork Tactician" has to say.

No need to be a jerk, we're all playing nicely here.

Since I *play* speed freaks, and I *link* all sorts of battle reports in my signature, and you're *still* asking that question, I presume you don't actually read anything I write, or put any stock in my opinions. And before you protest with wide eyed innocence, I'm sure you had "honorable intentions" and no "ulterior motives."

My apologies for sound jerk like Not really intended. I just sometimes question your suggestions.

And I've tried reading your battle reports. I couldn't make out much from them. I prefer having the basic statement with a reason.
So am I to assume koptas and warbuggies like Anvildude suggested? Or would you say otherwise?

Ask Dash about the number of times he's managed to blow the rokkit of one of three buggies in a squad, only to see his remaining fire at them end up doing nothing but shaking that one buggy with no rokkit anyway.

I love wound allocation shenanigans for squadrons.

Heffling wrote:Ask Dash about the number of times he's managed to blow the rokkit of one of three buggies in a squad, only to see his remaining fire at them end up doing nothing but shaking that one buggy with no rokkit anyway.

I love wound allocation shenanigans for squadrons.

this makes my head hurt? Whhhaaaattt?

Warbuggies are great if you stay under your KFF. After than they die on a roll of 3+ on the damage chart

Deff Koptas are a one trick pony, an experienced player will most likely screen your scout move from doing anything worth while on turn one.

Buggies are cheap and fast, and you can use them to outflank, or run up the middle to 'block' units and protect your vulnerable bits (like the rump of a Battlewagon) 3 twin-linked rockets are the best you're going to get with Ork shooting and they are cheaper than Coptas.

JK - I think you ought to run Coptas (2 in unit, one w/ buzzsaw) Buggies (3) and bikes. You have 3 slots. See which one you like best.

Half the fun is running it and seeing what happens - don't worry about having a 'perfect' army. Lots of good advice in this thread about what warbikes do well - and suck at. I have had mine die 1st turn, or roar around and wreck face all game (yeah, that was Tau).

Lost Boyz wrote:Buggies are cheap and fast, and you can use them to outflank, or run up the middle to 'block' units and protect your vulnerable bits (like the rump of a Battlewagon) 3 twin-linked rockets are the best you're going to get with Ork shooting and they are cheaper than Coptas.

JK - I think you ought to run Coptas (2 in unit, one w/ buzzsaw) Buggies (3) and bikes. You have 3 slots. See which one you like best.

Half the fun is running it and seeing what happens - don't worry about having a 'perfect' army. Lots of good advice in this thread about what warbikes do well - and suck at. I have had mine die 1st turn, or roar around and wreck face all game (yeah, that was Tau).

Now this I can get behind completely. Thats what I do when I play most the times. I personally dont get how the tourny guys can STILL have "fun" with the same army they have been taking to tournies with no change for fear of looking bad. I change my lists all the time. I am sticking to a bit of a theme, as in its double BigMeks and a bunch of shoota boyz, but like to try 3 looted Boomguns, or 9 kannons or the dred bash/kanwall thing (that one is just great) But I still change things around and try out new units, specially if they have been on the shelf a bit too long

KingCracker wrote: I personally dont get how the tourny guys can STILL have "fun" with the same army they have been taking to tournies with no change for fear of looking bad

There quite a few tournament players that can't have fun unless they are winning

I do run a little bit of each in my fast attack, while the smart player won't let you get a first turn assault on his manticore or whatever it is. It still makes them set up a certain way to protect his vital units which is the first step in getting them to play your game.

Deff Koptas are a one trick pony, an experienced player will most likely screen your scout move from doing anything worth while on turn one.

At that point you are dictating your opponent's deployment, and forcing a suboptimal set up (if the kopta did not exist)...

In addition, their is usually more than one target for the kopta... While they screen the kopta from getting to the longfangs/devastators, you can hit a transport with a scoring unit in it and limit the scoring unit's mobility in later turns or take their transport out of the fight. (which becomes more important when 2/3 games are objective based or when that transport has a high strength gun)

Before I forget! What is thought of assaulting the screening unit in front of the long fangs because of the "cannot shoot through combat clause"?

Next game I play I will use one unit of 2:1 Biker klaw, one unit of buzzkopta and one unit of warbuggies, then report my findings.