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So, i've been searching around the site and it seems that normal warbiker mobz aren't really that popular unless the army is an all biker theme. Does a biker mob of 10 (9 + a nob) not make an effective strike force? Or are there just better and cheaper options?

Any thoughts?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/347713.page
Just, read. You'll get a lot of insight over this one

To summarise, most people don't use them for whatever reason. Don't ask DashOfPepper, he hates them But seriously, it's matter of opinion. I find them useful since I like the idea of having 4+ armour and 4+ cover which keeps them alive for a lot longer than your average boy. The assault 3 guns en masse are deadly and will take down quite a few marines given the chance to shoot, even with BS2. Then of course there's the PK nob leader you'll need. Str9 snipping really messes vehicles up.

Making use of a squad? I'd suggest big numbers, 10-12, and add a PK/BP nob leader. It'll help with their leadership issues and gives you that extra punch in CC, and gives you lotas dakka and wounds before the squad starts feeling.

Against other units? Well agian, debateable. There's warbuggies that would be hlaf the price and give you plenty of anti-tank if given twin-rokkits. THere's stormboys which, while not as fast, have more bodies and better counter to the leadership issue orks have. Then there's deffkoptas which it seems most people on here swear by. Giving hem a buzzsaw and twin-rokkits, usually flying solo, just to try and pop a tank or two.

They're pretty good for ork mobility and firepower - but their main weakness is their Leadership. Testing on a 7+, even with a bosspole re-roll is just not forgiving with a unit that falls back 3d6".

That said, if you take enough of them, and rely on a turbo-boost save and cover to minimize damage on the first turn, you can ensure second turn assaults, preceded by loads of dakka. Once you're in combat, you're less vulnerable because you've got a decent (4+) save on a toughness 5 frame. You're not going to kill deathstars with them, but you'll fare acceptable well or better against most units.

I'd playtest them and find the balance between too many (if you never charge because your dakka guns kill everything, leaving you exposed, that's too many) and too few (which would be where you're taking too many early Ld tests and running too often).

I am working on a bunch of bikes - I realize they are not a power unit - but they are cool & fast! Some things to like: toughness 5, twin-linked shooting, mobile cover-save.

I have run small units w/ PK Nob & a biker Boss. Sometimes they seem to be nothing more than ablative wounds to get the Boss across the table - but that can be pretty good! I have had a ball with them chasing Tau (who really are not very fast). I have also had them just die immediately to shooting, since they are few in number (like when a demon 'flamers' squad deepstrikes right next to them - byebye cover save!)

I have had good luck with a small (5-Ork) Nob Bike squad. Not too expensive and still very worrisome to my opponent. It either dies after absorbing all of their fire, or does some good crumping.

I am working on (building) a bike list (3 bike squads, Wazzdakka, plus a big Nob-bikers squad & warboss, buggies & lootas) but I am going to also try them as a 'wing' for my Battlewagon lists - those wagons can be so slow!

(I am glad someone started a bike thread - I was tired of weeding through that 'tactica' thread with all the chest-thumpin!)

gpfunk wrote:So, i've been searching around the site and it seems that normal warbiker mobz aren't really that popular unless the army is an all biker theme. Does a biker mob of 10 (9 + a nob) not make an effective strike force? Or are there just better and cheaper options?

Any thoughts?

There are a variety of answers to this, but let me focus on one dimension of your question:

Are there better and cheaper options to make an effective strike force with in the ork codex? Yes.

Dashofpepper wrote:There are a variety of answers to this, but let me focus on one dimension of your question:

Are there cheaper options to make an effective strike force with in the ork codex? Yes.

Fixed it for you

Seriously, matter of opinion. You say no to warbikers, while quite a few others say yes.

Do we need another thread for this?

No, but we all know of Dash's position so I don't think we should continue trying to show him otherwise

But yes. OP. Bikers can be good. Testing them out would help greatly - both small and large numbers. Always have a PK/BP nob leader and beware of leadership issues. You could take 2 mobs so if one goes you've got another to harrass the enemy.

I look at it like this. I use my Fast attack slots as anti-tank/transports and it seems to me most Ork players see it the same way. So leaving out stormboyz because they are a poor choice for this role (and before the flames start I love stormboyz but I don't use them in the same role) our choices are rokkit buggies, deffkoptas, and warbikes (warbikers as AT? yes!) hear me out

ok for 70 points you can get one Deffkopta with a TL Rokkit Launcha and a buzzsaw. Lots of poeple, including me, love this unit but an experienced opponent can limit it's abilities. They have a +4 armour save and 2 wounds but are base toughness 4. While they get a cover save if they turbo boost after that they are practically defenseless. On the charge they get 3 str 7 attacks. So bottem line is extremely fragile and kind of a suicide unit.

next we have the Rokkit Buggies for 105 points you can take 3 of these bad boyz. Pumping out 3 TL rokkits is really nice. They are an effective unit but they are easy to destroy and being AR 10 and open topped is a real punishment due to squadron rules. To keep them alive they need to ride under your KFF.

finally we have Warbikers for 115 points you can take a Nob with PK and Bosspole and two other bikers. For starters you get +4 armour save and the exhaust cloud rule which ALWAYS gives you a cover save. They can turboboost to claim a +3 cover save. They have a charge range of 18" which makes them perfect for using as Ork Guided Misslies that get 4 str 9 and 8 str 4 attack on REAR armour.

Each of these unit perform the same roles just in different ways. Pick your poison. I am working on my Evil Sunz army so Warbikes are going to fill my AT roles.

pretre wrote:Do we need another thread for this?

Sure as . Buts thats just my opinion.

As far as I can tell, its an opinion thing. Seems to me that the only reason that people don't take bikes is LD and price. If they have a warboss this would be negated, and for a speed freaks army it sort of seems in keeping to have a biker boss.

What I find interesting is that to give a nob a bike is 25 points. To give a boy one is 29.

For the sake of an intellectual discussion I'd like to know what is a more effective strike force unit for the price of a 9 biker boyz +1 nob biker that can match it in terms of speed, infantry krumpin, and tank bashing. Anyone?

9 warbikers with a nob biker who has a powerklaw and a bosspole: 290 points.

A battlewagon (with a deffrolla, and a big shoota): 115 points
20 Boyz with sluggas and choppas, a nob with a powerklaw and a bosspole - 160 points

275 points.

9 warbikers have a 3+ cover save turbo-boosting up the field, or 4+ cover saves if they don't.
Boyz in a battlewagon can't be shot at. And their wagon is probably supported by other wagons, one of which is providing a 4+ cover save to the boyz wagon....whereas those bikers are probably running up the field unsupported.

My 20 boyz and their deffrolla would be happy to meet your 10 warbikers. =D

Your battlewagon is too slow to catch my bikers. You can take 3 shots at me at range if you like, with an average expected result of killing .25 bikers/turn.

I don't need to spend extra points to protect my bikes. You have other battlewagons, and a mek, and that's more points that aren't impacting my bikers.

Not everything can be measured in head-to-head stats. If I'm running bikers, you're right, I'd be foolish to engage your battlewagon full of boyz. But in your very small and limited example, I've got the strategic initiative. I decide if and when I want to engage you. Unless, perhaps, you invest another 250 or so points (not bothering to look it up) in ghaz, In which case I just stay further away from you, because I know what his charge range is. You cannot bring your points to bear against me. The best you can do is take your mek and your battlewagon and your character and camp an objective.

Meanwhile, when we both face off against dark eldar, I've got a bunch of highly mobile heavy bolters and a built-in cover save, and you're stuck with the hunk of a burnt-out battlewagon and a bunch of boyz stuck in a crater.


Don't get me wrong. I like battlewagons and I like meks and I even played Ghaz once after I painted him. But this isn't as cut and dried as you're making it out to be.

Why don't Redbeard and DashofPepper have a game ? I ll be more than happy to play either of you if my Vassal didn't fail me. I ll probably get it sorted out
Till then, you 2 can issue a challenge to each other, either on board or Vassal.

Redbeard wrote:Your battlewagon is too slow to catch my bikers. You can take 3 shots at me at range if you like, with an average expected result of killing .25 bikers/turn.

12" + 2" disembark + 6" fleet + 6" assault = 26"
Maybe I m missing something, but why is it that you think he can't catch your bikers? The board is finitely 6 by 4, you can't turboboost 24" away infinitely.

No one fires the big shoota on the wagon...

My view is that it is an unfair comparison to put up warbikers against a battlewagon + its assault contents. It's like a scissors to a stone.

Well, the challenge was point for point, not like unit for like unit.

Redbeard, your bikers can stay away from my battlewagon for a grand total of about two turns before even a turbo-boost won't get you out of charge range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redbeard wrote:
Meanwhile, when we both face off against dark eldar, I've got a bunch of highly mobile heavy bolters and a built-in cover save, and you're stuck with the hunk of a burnt-out battlewagon and a bunch of boyz stuck in a crater.

When we both face off against Dark Eldar, I've got deffkoptas, warbuggies, and Lootas to deal with raiders far better than BS2 heavy bolters can. At the moment, I'm more likely to *BE* the Dark Eldar player though, and unless you have Lootas as well, you can bet army pink slips that the whole warbiker unit is dead on the first turn, without me having to turn to dark lances for help. =D Consider that a challenge.

Dashofpepper wrote:
When we both face off against Dark Eldar, I've got deffkoptas, warbuggies, and Lootas to deal with raiders far better than BS2 heavy bolters can.

Congrats. Oddly enough, I've got other stuff in my list too.

At the moment, I'm more likely to *BE* the Dark Eldar player though, and unless you have Lootas as well, you can bet army pink slips that the whole warbiker unit is dead on the first turn, without me having to turn to dark lances for help. =D Consider that a challenge.

Done. I accept your challenge, by the exact terms you stated above - I won't bring lootas. I will state now that my strategy will be to reserve my entire army. My warbikers will not be dead on the first turn, and if you want to play the rest of the game out on vassal, that's up to you. I'll pay for shipping, do you need my address?

At the moment, I'm more likely to *BE* the Dark Eldar player though, and unless you have Lootas as well, you can bet army pink slips that the whole warbiker unit is dead on the first turn, without me having to turn to dark lances for help. =D Consider that a challenge.

Done. I accept your challenge, by the exact terms you stated above - I won't bring lootas. I will state now that my strategy will be to reserve my entire army. My warbikers will not be dead on the first turn, and if you want to play the rest of the game out on vassal, that's up to you. I'll pay for shipping, do you need my address?

Wow. Win. Congrats on your new DE army, Redbeard.

Redbeard wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:
When we both face off against Dark Eldar, I've got deffkoptas, warbuggies, and Lootas to deal with raiders far better than BS2 heavy bolters can.

Congrats. Oddly enough, I've got other stuff in my list too.

At the moment, I'm more likely to *BE* the Dark Eldar player though, and unless you have Lootas as well, you can bet army pink slips that the whole warbiker unit is dead on the first turn, without me having to turn to dark lances for help. =D Consider that a challenge.

Done. I accept your challenge, by the exact terms you stated above - I won't bring lootas. I will state now that my strategy will be to reserve my entire army. My warbikers will not be dead on the first turn, and if you want to play the rest of the game out on vassal, that's up to you. I'll pay for shipping, do you need my address?

Unless the mission doesn't allow reserves.

*laughing* How about a better one - pink slips for our armies for the game win, and I'll spare you the humiliation of the game itself, and you can just send me your army?

Seriously though, I continue looking for someone to demonstrate warbikers as other than suckage to me without avail. You up to it?

Aww, Dash went back on his challenge. :(

Dashofpepper wrote:
*laughing* How about a better one - pink slips for our armies for the game win, and I'll spare you the humiliation of the game itself, and you can just send me your army?

Seriously though, I continue looking for someone to demonstrate warbikers as other than suckage to me without avail. You up to it?

You changing the terms of the challenge now? I don't think so.

You don't seem to get it, and that's why you lost your challenge. You only think straight ahead. Straight-ahead, warbikers aren't as good as some other options. But in looking at problems straight ahead, you fail to see your way around them, and so you miss the opportunities that units like warbikers create. You challenge me to a contest where you claim you'll destroy my unit on turn one, clearly neglecting the possibility that I'll reserve my force - and that just demonstrates that you're just fixated on the straight-ahead approach. And now you're trying to change the terms of your challenge?

How about no. I have nothing to gain in this. I like warbikers, that's enough for me. I don't need to engage in an internet dick-measuring contest with you, my ego isn't tied up in whether I can win at toy soldiers. You've already demonstrated to everyone reading this thread that not only are you full of hot air, blustering about and throwing down challenges, but that you're also the sort to reneger on your own challenge once it's shown that you cannot win it. Want to show that you're not just some internet tough guy? Have the balls to stick to your original challenge, even in the face of defeat. I'll happily lose that game to you, but I'll still win your wager. You threw down, now either stick to it, or run away with your tail between your legs.

Redbeard wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:
*laughing* How about a better one - pink slips for our armies for the game win, and I'll spare you the humiliation of the game itself, and you can just send me your army?

Seriously though, I continue looking for someone to demonstrate warbikers as other than suckage to me without avail. You up to it?

You changing the terms of the challenge now? I don't think so.

You don't seem to get it, and that's why you lost your challenge. You only think straight ahead. Straight-ahead, warbikers aren't as good as some other options. But in looking at problems straight ahead, you fail to see your way around them, and so you miss the opportunities that units like warbikers create. You challenge me to a contest where you claim you'll destroy my unit on turn one, clearly neglecting the possibility that I'll reserve my force - and that just demonstrates that you're just fixated on the straight-ahead approach. And now you're trying to change the terms of your challenge?

How about no. I have nothing to gain in this. I like warbikers, that's enough for me. I don't need to engage in an internet dick-measuring contest with you, my ego isn't tied up in whether I can win at toy soldiers. You've already demonstrated to everyone reading this thread that not only are you full of hot air, blustering about and throwing down challenges, but that you're also the sort to reneger on your own challenge once it's shown that you cannot win it. Want to show that you're not just some internet tough guy? Have the balls to stick to your original challenge, even in the face of defeat. I'll happily lose that game to you, but I'll still win your wager. You threw down, now either stick to it, or run away with your tail between your legs.

Redbeard, challenge stands, mission and deployment from 'Ard Boyz - the one where reserves are not allowed. Equal finangling done. The challenge is related to the subpar capabilities of the unit, not in your ability to be able to reserve them to protect them.

Dash, a unit's ability to take advantage of the Reserves rule or the amount by which being in Reserves hinders it (for example, in DoW) is clearly part of its strength or weakness as a unit. As Redbeard has aptly pointed out, one of Warbikers' advantages is that they make better use of Reserves than many other units do. Playing a mission without Reserves allowed would be outside the boundaries of "standard" tournament 40k.

Neutral arbiter suggestion:

Since Dash has lost the challenge claiming he will kill the Warbikers on turn 1 and reneged on his wager (which makes sense, as it was obviously not fully thought through and possibly insincere/hyperbole in the first place), I propose an altered challenge meeting the spirit of the original discussion.

1: A randomly-rolled normal 40k game, with Redbeard to employ at least one unit of Warbikers, and see who wins.

OR

2: A randomly-rolled normal 40k game, with Redbeard to employ an army including Wazdakka and multiple units of warbikes.

I suggest the following wagers, based on Dash's firm comments up to this point: Option 1 stakes would be $50. Option 2 stakes would be pink slip; ownership of the loser's army.

Don't think Redbeard is going to go for it from the text of his response. Junk waving and all. Don't blame him.

I don't care about stakes, and this isn't about junk waving - I just want someone to plop warbikers down in front of me and demonstrate to me that they aren't useless.

Telling me they aren't useless is useless, I need to *see* it.

Mannahnin, I'm really not interested in playing 40k for stakes. I do, however, know a good thing when I see one. Of course, when someone offers an easily winnable challenge, I'm happy to take advantage of it.

I'll happily play Dash if we're in the same place. I have no fear of losing. Staking money, or armies (especially as mine looks much nicer), on a game of dice isn't my thing though.

I think the point has been made. I concede that warbikes aren't the best unit in the ork codex for running straight at an opponent. And I don't think Dash looks at the universe from any other perspective than running straight at it.

Find a local player you respect and play a couple games with swapped armies? Find a vassal player you respect and have them try out warbikers?

Not sure why the onus is on us to cater to your need to *see* proof. We're on the interwebs here, in a discussion board. Most of the time discussions are held with words, because of that whole no physical presence thing.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redbeard wrote: And I don't think Dash looks at the universe from any other perspective than running straight at it.

He pretty much confirmed that in the other thread. Charge and table. Objective missions are just KP missions, etc.

I wonder what would happen at a tournament that only grants solid victories instead of massacres for tabling. Or only grants you the objectives you earned at the end of the game instead of max points.

pretre wrote:Find a local player you respect and play a couple games with swapped armies? Find a vassal player you respect and have them try out warbikers?

Not sure why the onus is on us to cater to your need to *see* proof. We're on the interwebs here, in a discussion board. Most of the time discussions are held with words, because of that whole no physical presence thing.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redbeard wrote: And I don't think Dash looks at the universe from any other perspective than running straight at it.

He pretty much confirmed that in the other thread. Charge and table. Objective missions are just KP missions, etc.

I wonder what would happen at a tournament that only grants solid victories instead of massacres for tabling. Or only grants you the objectives you earned at the end of the game instead of max points.

Pretre, I've played against warbikers on occassion, even against a GT winner fielding warbikers. I was not impressed. More of the same won't do much - it needs someone who genuinely believes in their capabilities. Vassal is an easy way to fix the "physical presence thing." The only thing Vassal can't do is provide accurate 3D modeling of buildings, something that can be solved with pre-game discussion and labeling of terrain.

By and large, I am a one-dimensional player. Kill the army across the table. While I take great joy in this approach, I see plenty of missions where tabling is not a massacre, you still need to hold multiple objectives. This past weekend I played in a tournament where objectives moved 2d6 every player turn (even to scattering off the field), and another mission where only a single model in your army (one of your HQ choices) was capable of generating killpoints for you. I assure you, I'm quite versatile on adapting to different mission requirements, and read them very carefully before every game.

Kinda like this:

1. Read Mission.
2. Will killing the enemy army help me accomplish the mission? If yes, proceed to step 3. If no, proceed to step 4.
3. Go nuts, and kill enemy army.
4. Go nuts, and kill enemy army. On turn 4, re-read mission to see what steps are required to achieve victory.

The game where objectives moved 2d6 every turn, I won by 4 objectives to one. It was a strange ending because my opponent conceded on turn four, and concessions usually mean a full point, full victory point, full everything win but he didn't want to treat it that way - but we were on the top table and the tournament was already mine, so I didn't fuss.

But yeah - I much prefer the one-dimensional approach. *edit* In fact, when I'm looking at armies on display before a tournament, I'm thinking, "This is how I'd kill this army." On my way to a tournament, I'm mentally steeling myself to destroy and maim my competition mercilessly. I'm friendly across the table, but in my head I'm role-playing the horrendous death and torture of each model opposing me.

Oh well, back to Bikers.

Anyone have an interesting deployment method that they have used. How about some success stories... What are some units that they do well against?

Dashofpepper wrote:
Pretre, I've played against warbikers on occassion, even against a GT winner fielding warbikers. I was not impressed. More of the same won't do much - it needs someone who genuinely believes in their capabilities.

So not only do we need to find you an opponent to play, but we have to find one who's heart is pure and is dedicated to the notion that warbikers are good. C'mon man. You're stacking on the steaming stuff here. If their belief isn't genuine and they lose, does that make it less of a good test?

Vassal is an easy way to fix the "physical presence thing." The only thing Vassal can't do is provide accurate 3D modeling of buildings, something that can be solved with pre-game discussion and labeling of terrain.

I've never played Vassal and it doesn't appeal to me for the same reason I always try to bring painted minis to a game and that I don't just use slips of paper for my proxies at home. I like the visual aspect of the game. I have played plenty of computer games and they are not 40k. Vassal is also not 40k for the same reason. It has no physical element. As great a simulation as it is, it still lacks there.

By and large, I am a one-dimensional player.

We noticed.

I don't know that it is endearing, especially having to hear it over and over again. I get that you are Ghaz reborn in a human body, brought from on high to do Gork and Mork's will upon us poor lowly humans, with our feeble understanding of Tacktiks and 40k. I just don't need to hear it every time you write something. It's already in your sig. I can go there if I need to.

Well that was absolutely crazy reading all of that. Heated to say the least. Interesting though.

Obviously warbikes don't work for a straight forward player. I suppose that would make sense as they are really more about fast movement and flanking...outriders and all that jazz. Id like to see a battle report between red beard and dash.

No gak though. No having to use warbikers, or any other unit. Just try hard pants versus try hard pants.

Course, thats just me, for the sake of interest in the hobby.

Lost Boyz wrote:Oh well, back to Bikers.

Anyone have an interesting deployment method that they have used. How about some success stories... What are some units that they do well against?

That's sort of my point - they don't do well against much. They don't have the strength to overwhelm assault units, the initiative to strike before anything, or the sheer volume of attacks that other methods of delivering orks has. They have guns, but if you want shooty orks either Lootas or shoota boyz are a better and cheaper means of delivering overwhelming firepower. =p