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D'oh!

I had a unit of 6 reavers with heatlances in the fast attack slots, and didn't see them because of how the template was shifted on my computer.

206 points to play with.

at least you not forgot about them playing the game.

Yeah, I did forget about them. =p


My OP has been updated to reflect a fifth troop choice to make up for the point difference. Two of my wych squads are 6 instead of 7 - I had to fiddle around with wargear to get the point total changed. Adding the fifth one put me at 2,038, so I dropped the crucible and shattershard and a wych....then dropped a second wych from another unit to get my shattershard back.

That list got better....

If, for any reason you still run into issues w/ AT, here's some food for thought:

5x scourges with 2 haywire blasters are statistically more likely to glance/pen than 3 blasters against AV12 and higher. Scourges can also hit turn 1 pretty easily, whereas trueborn have to have near perfect deployment conditions to be able to hit on turn 1 with a little fudge room using the sideways deployment and turn. 16 points cheaper. Landraider w/ Blessed hull, Monolith... it's a flying haywire grenade... doesn't matter.

The downsides, not nearly as survivable for obvious reasons (no transport), but they do have a 4+/6++. They give up the 36" spl. cannon range for 3 shots less and an 18" range without movement. (DE don't really do survivable anyway + what better protection than preventing the enemy from shooting?)

I played around with the list for fun....


1,996 point Dark Eldar:

HQ1: 2x Haemonculi with 2x Liquifiers 120
HQ2: 3x Haemonculi with 3x Liquifiers and 1x Shattershard 195

Troop1: 6x Wyches with a Hekatrix upgrade packing an agonizer; 6x Haywire Grenades // Raider, Dark Lance, Flickerfield 172
Troop2: 6x Wyches with a Hekatrix upgrade packing an agonizer; 6x Haywire Grenades // Raider, Dark Lance, Flickerfield 172
Troop3: 6x Wyches with a Hekatrix upgrade packing an agonizer; 6x Haywire Grenades // Raider, Dark Lance, Flickerfield 172
Troop4: 6x Wyches with a Hekatrix upgrade packing an agonizer; 6x Haywire Grenades // Raider, Dark Lance, Flickerfield 172
Troop5: 6x Wyches with a Hekatrix upgrade packing an agonizer; 6x Haywire Grenades // Raider, Dark Lance, Flickerfield 172


Elite1: 4x Kabalite Trueborn with 4x Blasters // Venom, Extra Splinter Cannon, Flickerfield 173
Elite2: 4x Kabalite Trueborn with 4x Blasters // Venom, Extra Splinter Cannon, Flickerfield 173

Fast Attack 1: 5x Scourges with 2x Haywire Blasters. 130

Heavy Support1: Ravager with 3x Dark Lances, Flickerfield 115
Heavy Support2: Ravager with 3x Dark Lances, Flickerfield 115
Heavy Support3: Ravager with 3x Dark Lances, Flickerfield 115


Edit:....maybe not penetrate...whoops.

I love the list dash just one thing you may have overlooked or perhaps I'm reading it wrong. In the 6 man wych squads you have 7 haywire grenades

Thanks Bleakz! Got that fixed, now I have 6 points to spare.....some fuddling around is going to be needed to sort that out to 1996-2k.

Is giving six guys FNP really worth 60 points? You're paying 10 points per Wych for FNP, and while the liquifier is certainly helpful, I can't help but think that just taking more Wyches might be more effective.

yeah, FNP on just 6 Wyches doesn't look good.

I have a question: How do the Haemonculi work in this army? Are they packed into two of the raiders, giving those Wyches their first token, then they fly around after the Wyches get out, shooting their liquifiers?

Anything without FNP basically becomes a suicide unit. 1 Explodes result on your target, or your boat and the squad is pretty much done. If they survive, the following turn, they'll be shot to death.

Although, you have me thinking.... you could pile in some more firepower for all of the points sunk into those Haemies....(happens to fall into my minimalist HQ idea as well...)

1,997 point Dark Eldar:

HQ1: 1x Haemonculi with 1x Shattershard 65

Troop 1: 7x Wyches with a Hekatrix upgrade packing an agonizer; 7x Haywire Grenades // Raider, Dark Lance, Flickerfield, 184
Troop 2: 7x Wyches with a Hekatrix upgrade packing an agonizer; 7x Haywire Grenades // Raider, Dark Lance, Flickerfield, 184
Troop 3: 7x Wyches with a Hekatrix upgrade packing an agonizer; 7x Haywire Grenades // Raider, Dark Lance, Flickerfield, 184
Troop 4: 6x Wyches with a Hekatrix upgrade packing an agonizer; 6x Haywire Grenades // Raider, Dark Lance, Flickerfield, 172
Troop 5: 6x Wyches with a Hekatrix upgrade packing an agonizer; 6x Haywire Grenades // Raider, Dark Lance, Flickerfield, 172
Troop 6: 6x Wyches with a Hekatrix upgrade packing an agonizer; 6x Haywire Grenades // Raider, Dark Lance, Flickerfield, 172


Elite1: 4x Kabalite Trueborn with 4x Blasters // Venom, Extra Splinter Cannon, Flickerfield 173
Elite1: 4x Kabalite Trueborn with 4x Blasters // Venom, Extra Splinter Cannon, Flickerfield 173
Elite1: 4x Kabalite Trueborn with 4x Blasters // Venom, Extra Splinter Cannon, Flickerfield 173


Heavy Support1: Ravager with 3x Dark Lances, Flickerfield 115
Heavy Support2: Ravager with 3x Dark Lances, Flickerfield 115
Heavy Support3: Ravager with 3x Dark Lances, Flickerfield 115


Trades out 4x Haemies, 30 FNP saves for an extra trueborn w/ blaster in 2 squads, plus a full Squad of 4x Trueborn with blasters and an extra squad of wyches in raider, kitted the same as the others. Spare points thrown into an extra body on 3 wych squads, although, they could all three be put into 1 squad with the haemy to maximize the 1 squad's FNP.

Foo wrote: Are they packed into two of the raiders, giving those Wyches their first token,

No, 1 each in with each wych squad to give each wych squad FNP

Foo wrote: then they fly around after the Wyches get out, shooting their liquifiers?

I was not aware you could break up HQs like that. I thought the 3 Haemis had to be grouped together.

Nope, they are 3 independant characters, they simply take up 1 FOC slot.

Holy sh!tballs.

Weren't the mass venoms the strength of the old list? Where you could pour on a ridiculous amount of armor saves?

Or do you find that you can still suppress things like long fangs, but against mech you have so many tank busting units, they really can't deal with them all?

I'm going to have to reconsider the number of wyches I'm using. I had been using nine wyches with a haemonculi taking up the 10th slot.....and in this case, having FNP on only a few models *does* seem like a waste.

Concerning whether wyches in excess of minimum are ablative wounds working against the minimalist "the best defense is a good offense" theory (where I wouldn't take haemys anyway right?) I think I need to kick my wych units up to nine.

For now, I *do* want to keep a haemy with each wych unit. I need to tinker with the list some more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alright, I've modified my OP.

I'm back up to 4x Wych units with 4x haemonculi in them, trueborn are now 4/4/3, and I have 16 points that I don't know where to spend.

Don't abandon the beastmaster unit dash!!! Give yourself the 270 point varient and drop some of those trueborn. Personally I wouldn't run more than 3 units of wyches + haemis because my other hq slot is taken up by the baron. Your other troop slots can then be a combination of hellions (4th slot) and warriors (5-6th slots). If you haven't playtested the 2x beastmaster units you may find as I have they are the answer to beating IG.

When all army ride Fast Skimmers, i think beasts will be useless in such list.
2Dashofpepper - take PGL on raiders) or at least one with CoM Homie.)) I thinkin about trying this out.. at least this helps with removing models away, and can come handy in hth too

penek wrote:When all army ride Fast Skimmers, i think beasts will be useless in such list.

How is that so? The beasts present a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario that can't be ignored. You won't become a believer 'till you've play tested it yourself. A single pack of beastmasters can destroy half of a parking lot army by themselves. Having 2 units of them is to insure they have no chance. If they don't shoot the beasts and tackle your wyches, the beasts will successfully reach the front lines and multicharge them to death. If they shoot the beasts the wyches do their job and eliminate their targets.

Let me ask you this... are spacewolves that run Thunderwolf Calvary successful? How survivable are Thunderworlf Cavalry compared to a Beastmaster pack at roughly the same 270 point cost? DE also have the option of bringing them through a WWP, but I'm not asking to do that as part of the comparison.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote:
HQ1: 1x Haemonculi with 1x Liquifier and Crucible of Malediction
HQ2: 3x Haemonculi with 3x Liquifiers and 1x Shattershard

I would swap the Liquifier on HQ1 with the Shattershard on HQ2. Two 1 use items would be more cost-effective, although I know you are trying to spread out the wargear to not make that particular Haemi a target. This way you net 10 points.

Also, I double checked the OP math, and it comes to 1944. You have way more points then you think you do. Why you have venoms instead of raiders though, I don't know. My mantra is "never enough anti tank".

He still wants Liquifiers on all haemys so how those that net 10 points ?

Are you really going to get more then 2 shots off in a game? I doubt it. Both wargear items on a single Haemi would be more cost effective, but it would also make that Haemi a target.

I personally like your list, I myself am putting together a list somewhat like it for my new Dark Eldar Army.

They make him useless ie he can do something only 2 turns, then die.. or hide for the rest of the game.
And on beasts.. everything in army can hide behind pretty small cover - beasts can't do that.
and SW normally play out of TWC, not add them in every army because - oh soo cool unit for just 270pts and TWC more survivable because of 2W and allocation. and 5T and 3++

I'm back up to 4x Wych units with 4x haemonculi in them, trueborn are now 4/4/3, and I have 16 points that I don't know where to spend.

You could put some shock prows on your raiders to allow them to tank shock, or you can put haywires on one of your trueborn units.

Edited because I never saw an updated list.

Dash what is the current list the first post looks old.

penek wrote:They make him useless ie he can do something only 2 turns, then die.. or hide for the rest of the game.
And on beasts.. everything in army can hide behind pretty small cover - beasts can't do that.
and SW normally play out of TWC, not add them in every army because - oh soo cool unit for just 270pts and TWC more survivable because of 2W and allocation. and 5T and 3++

More survivable? The beasts have 45 wounds and a 4++... they don't need cover. And if you expect a haemi to get that close to the enemy, and not get put in CC or outright killed your opponents are terrible and you won anyways.

Dalamar wrote:
I think you totally misread his army.

his troops are 8 wyches +1 hecatrix = 208 each

Trueborn are 2 units at 4 with blasters = 173
1 trueborn unit at 3 with blasters = 146

when I put that into AB it comes to 1944

Dash you have points to add Wych weapons to each squad and still be at 1984.

Actually, you didn't finish reading the post, or you would know that the OP list has changed twice. That point total was in reference to one of the previous lists.

@Dash, I'll 3rd it and say your list is at 1944 points. . The point difference.... the most immediate thing I think you would do is to bump the 3rd Trueborn squad up to 4x w/ blasters, putting you at 1971. 29 points.... is a wierd number to work with. Trophy racks on raider maybe? Help any Leadership tests when the Wyches finally do break. You just have to chase them with a raider, which would kinda nerf your haemy on board.

*edit*

Alright, I'm at 1,971 now. *ponders*

It looks like a good list but what will hold your objective(s)?
I know you want everything to be similar but wyches don't hold objectives well - they certainly can't hit enemies at range while camping on an objective.

As a thought:

Drop one hammy with liquifier and a wyche squad. Add 2 warrior squads with a blaster in a dbl splinter cannon venom. This should leave you with enough points to add a wyche weapon in the 3 remains squads with another 17 pts to throw where you want - I don't have my codex with me but could you afford 3 TGL on the wyche raiders?

This still leaves you with 3 great assault units, gives you more ranged shots, and allows you to claim more objectives.

Vrakk wrote:Drop one hammy with liquifier and a wyche squad. Add 2 warrior squads with a blaster in a dbl splinter cannon venom. This should leave you with enough points to add a wyche weapon in the 3 remains squads with another 17 pts to throw where you want - I don't have my codex with me but could you afford 3 TGL on the wyche raiders?

This still leaves you with 3 great assault units, gives you more ranged shots, and allows you to claim more objectives.

This is sort of what I did. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/355441.page

u]HQ[/u]
Duke - 150

Haemi w/ LG -215
Haemi w/ LG and CoM
Haemi w/ LG and SS

Elite
(x8) BloodBrides w/ x3 hydra, x8 Haywire -265
(x1) Syren w/ haywire, Agonizer, PGL,
Raider

(x3) Trueborn w/ x3 Blaster -146
Venom w/ x2 SC

(x3) Trueborn w/ x3 Blaster -146
Venom w/ x2 SC

Troops
(x9) Wyches w/ x1 Hydra, x9 Haywire -183
Raider w/ TGL

(x9) Wyches w/ x1 Hydra, x9 Haywire -178
Raider

(x5) Warriors w/ x1 Blaster -120
Raider

(x5) Warriors w/ x1 Blaster -120
Raider

Fast Attack
(x5) Scourges w/ x2 HB -130

Heavy Support

(x3) Ravager w/ FF -345

Toatal = 1998

Very solid list, but I'm wondering why the wych transports have flickerfields, as the only time they shouldn't be getting their 4+ cover save for moving flat out is after they deposited their precious cargo.

Of course you might be trying to conserve a killpoint or two with them, but that doesn't seem like you.

Sorry if it is a silly comment, just seems like that extra 40 points could go to something better.