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RxGhost wrote:Honestly, I don't think the Necrons can get much better; I'd put the whole army up as underpriced at this point.

Are you kidding me? I just played a 2000 point apoc game where I had 12 models on my side. Granted, 250 points was for a formation but still...for what they are and how horrible their CC options are, they're in dire need of an overhaul or price reduction on many if not all units.

Just compare a termy to a pariah or wraith and see who'd win out.
Compare a warrior to a standard marine and see who is better.

I could go on and on...

remember when only Necrons had 3+ invulnerables, and everyone else (especially marine players) screamed cheese and stomped and wailed and gnashed their teeth?

Guess who can spam 2+ 3++ now..

I don't hear many of them complaining...

Ascalam wrote:remember when only Necrons had 3+ invulnerables, and everyone else (especially marine players) screamed cheese and stomped and wailed and gnashed their teeth?

Guess who can spam 2+ 3++ now..

I don't hear many of them complaining...

very true. i doubt that they will flag their own armies as unfair lol.

I think RxGhost may have been sarcastic there. Though for what the Nightbringer can do, 360 pts is a steal

Honestly, an awful lot of the IG codex feels undercosted. Vets loaded with specials in a Chimera is an *awful* lot of firepower for 150 points or so...especially for a scoring unit.

The entire GK codex, basic Grey knights all come with power weapons that can cause instant death or increase their strength +1, psykers and daemons are at I1 when assaulted by them, any psychic power used against them are cast at -1 leadership for the psychic power, they can deep strike, all are equipped with storm bolters and if the unit suffers perils of the warp only one model is effected. All of this for only 4 points more per model than a regular space marine. I bet the only armies that you will see make the finals in ard boys will be Grey Knights and IG, because GW seems to have lost the capacity to mathematically rationalize what overpowered is. I think that whoever wrote the recent codexes either doesn't think anyone plays anymore and just buys models to paint because they look neat or used a dart board while on the edge of an alcohol induced coma to price the units to avoid actual research to balance the game.

I Feel that Talos and Furioso Dreadnought are both undercost for what they can do.

Underpriced things:

Doom of Malan'tai
Ork boyz
Gargoyles
Blood Angel Predators
Vendetta
Long Fangs
Almost all Guard tanks

Picking a #1 is pretty hard.


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Oh yeah, Killa Kans too. The upgrades are not overly cheap but the model itself.

Necrons are pretty under pointed for what they can do. plus some ablities need to be clearified like wether bing hit by a double str hit will instantly kill one permenantly. but i have a feeling that the grey knights will be very problematic

bucheonman wrote:
Almost all Guard tanks

Aside from the Vendetta, possibly the Chimera and maybe the Manticore or Hydra, what's wrong with the others? The Hellhound/Devil Dog/Banewolf aren't exactly cheap for what they do, the LRBT's generally aren't seen as power units and are rather expensive, especially after you start loading them with lots of guns, and the Medusa/Bassy/Griffon/Collossus aren't exactly usually seen as OP units either.

'Necrons are pretty under pointed for what they can do. plus some ablities need to be clearified like wether bing hit by a double str hit will instantly kill one permenantly. but i have a feeling that the grey knights will be very problematic '

By and large this is pretty inaccurate these days. They USED to be able to blow vehicles to hades with gauss, back an edition. Under 5th they can't do that anymore,as glances can't directly destoy vehicles (unless open-topped (and open topped is always AV 10 anyway, pretty much (couple of exceptions )

Basically necron warriors are more expensive marines with bolters that can autowound a T 7 or 8 creature on a 6 (still gets its armour save) and there are very very few T 7 or 8 critters out there. Anything less tough you'd be wounding anyway. They can glance vehicles to death, eventually.

Tradeoff is that they have no squad sergeants, no Powerweapons (barrring lords), no heavy weapon support in the units, 1 attack each and I 2. They can be swept effortlessly by most armies in CC.

They can come back from the dead, I grant you, but FNP is about on par, and everyone's poodle has that these days.

Added to that if you kill 75% of the army (ignoring the tanks and Ctan and similar good stuff) you win regardless.

Necrons have a few good things, and generally pay a mint for them, often at odd points values that make listbuilding frustrating (41 pts?? ) with next to no options.

There are a couple of units that may be undercosted (monolith is fairly reasonable for example) and a whole codex full of overcosted and useless.


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To clarify the rules query btw :0)

Necrons die without WBB if they're killed by a ranged weapon with strength double their toughness or a cc weapon that ignores armour saves. Ressurection Orb allows WBB even under these conditions to units within 6'' of the orb.

Polonius wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Every space marine...

Even Dark Angels Company veterans?

Even Termies(40pts a model)

No offense Ascalam, but it would appear to me that you have actually never played against necrons.

I'm not gonna' spend a lot of time debating the flawed points in your previous statement, but:

Necrons Warriors cost 2 points more than a space marine. TWO. They have a gun that auto glances any vehicle in the game, and every trooper is equipped with it. They have marine stats, marine armor, Ld 10 AND THEY GET BACK UP WHEN YOU KILL THEM. Two points. Oh, they have Init 2, sorry.

Also...

"They can be swept effortlessly by most armies in CC."

...seriously, that HAS to be a joke, you cannot honestly be so foolish as to believe this statement.

You don't 'glance vehicles to death' you shut them down. Getting a single glance result on any vehicle usually means, at the very least, it can't shoot at you. On a standard roll (d6-2) half the results you will get will lock a vehicle down and prevent it from firing at you.

I don't know if Mephiston is actually undercosted but...

I look at his profile and abilities for 250 points.

Then I look at Ahriman in the Chaos Book for 250 points.

And seriously question if the people writing these books communicate.

Mephiston arguably casts better, Mephiston has two more strength and toughness, two more wounds, better armour save, better initiative and weapon skill and throws in a plasma pistol as well.

What does Ahriman get? 4+ invulnerable. Aw yeah.

RxGhost wrote:
Necrons Warriors cost 2 points more than a space marine. TWO. They have a gun that auto glances any vehicle in the game, and every trooper is equipped with it. They have marine stats, marine armor, Ld 10 AND THEY GET BACK UP WHEN YOU KILL THEM. Two points. Oh, they have Init 2, sorry.

And they're slow without monolith support, they have no access to a transport for defense, and phase out. Not to mention that they have no access to heavy or special weaponry (because no one takes Marines for their statline or bolters).

Also...

"They can be swept effortlessly by most armies in CC."

...seriously, that HAS to be a joke, you cannot honestly be so foolish as to believe this statement.

It's not foolish. They are. No stubborn or fearless, no way of winning in close combat, and any unit even slightly inclined towards close combat will tear them to shreds and sweep them.

You don't 'glance vehicles to death' you shut them down. Getting a single glance result on any vehicle usually means, at the very least, it can't shoot at you. On a standard roll (d6-2) half the results you will get will lock a vehicle down and prevent it from firing at you.

Space Marine player puts a squad in a land raider, and then camps on an objective.

What do you do?

Oh, and phase out.

I wouldn't say Ork boyz are under cost, since +6 save combined with int 2 means they die in droves before they get to actual hit back.

Fenix wrote:The entire GK codex, basic Grey knights all come with power weapons that can cause instant death or increase their strength +1, psykers and daemons are at I1 when assaulted by them, any psychic power used against them are cast at -1 leadership for the psychic power, they can deep strike, all are equipped with storm bolters and if the unit suffers perils of the warp only one model is effected. All of this for only 4 points more per model than a regular space marine. I bet the only armies that you will see make the finals in ard boys will be Grey Knights and IG, because GW seems to have lost the capacity to mathematically rationalize what overpowered is. I think that whoever wrote the recent codexes either doesn't think anyone plays anymore and just buys models to paint because they look neat or used a dart board while on the edge of an alcohol induced coma to price the units to avoid actual research to balance the game.

Isn't it past your bed time, chicken little?

RxGhost wrote:No offense Ascalam, but it would appear to me that you have actually never played against necrons.

I'm not gonna' spend a lot of time debating the flawed points in your previous statement, but:

Necrons Warriors cost 2 points more than a space marine. TWO. They have a gun that auto glances any vehicle in the game, and every trooper is equipped with it. They have marine stats, marine armor, Ld 10 AND THEY GET BACK UP WHEN YOU KILL THEM. Two points. Oh, they have Init 2, sorry.

Also...

"They can be swept effortlessly by most armies in CC."

...seriously, that HAS to be a joke, you cannot honestly be so foolish as to believe this statement.

You don't 'glance vehicles to death' you shut them down. Getting a single glance result on any vehicle usually means, at the very least, it can't shoot at you. On a standard roll (d6-2) half the results you will get will lock a vehicle down and prevent it from firing at you.

Methinks someone is still playing 4th edition. Necrons are considered one of (if not the) weakest armies in 40k right now.

I agree with most of this thread...

Except Long Fangs...

AvatarForm wrote:I agree with most of this thread...

Except Long Fangs...

Long fangs aren't undercosted? How so?

Maybe I'm just the only one who thinks so, but Fire Dragons are undercosted! Seriously, 16 points for a Squad of dudes that all have melta guns. Combine them with the fairness of a wave serpent and you can basically count on a dead vehicle for each squad of Fire Dragons.

...that's kind of the point of taking them in the first place...

Justus wrote:Maybe I'm just the only one who thinks so, but Fire Dragons are undercosted! Seriously, 16 points for a Squad of dudes that all have melta guns. Combine them with the fairness of a wave serpent and you can basically count on a dead vehicle for each squad of Fire Dragons.

How much is the squad, and how much is the vehicle they slagged?

Unless it's a land raider, usually the Dragons out point anything they kill.

Barebones Fragon unit in a Serpent costs 180pts (Serpent includes the least expensive necessary upgrade).

Vaktathi wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:I agree with most of this thread...

Except Long Fangs...

Long fangs aren't undercosted? How so?

Long Fangs with rockets are priced almost right - the actual blokes should maybe be 16pts to account for splitting fire but 140 for 5 rockets is ok. It's SM Devvies which are overpriced rather than Long Fangs being horrendously underpriced though. BA ones which come in at 130 for 4 rockets rather than 150 are pretty useful but not rage-inducing like Long Fangs.

Hydras are almost definitely undercosted - 75pts for what you get is insane. 85 or 90 would probably set them about right.

It's worth pointing out that Long Fangs also have LD9 across the board, counterattack, and acute sense.

Which means that not only are they a well priced small shooting unit, they also have built in buffs against three common concerns of static shooty units (LD tests near a board edge, small fast assault units, and night fight.)

Corrode wrote:
Long Fangs with rockets are priced almost right - the actual blokes should maybe be 16pts to account for splitting fire but 140 for 5 rockets is ok. It's SM Devvies which are overpriced rather than Long Fangs being horrendously underpriced though. BA ones which come in at 130 for 4 rockets rather than 150 are pretty useful but not rage-inducing like Long Fangs.

Long Fangs bring the most heavy weapons per point of almost any unit in the game (and with a higher BS and more survivability than the few units that can bring as many heavy weapons, primarily IG HWS's), in an army of highly effective close combat units and incredibly powerful characters. The Blood Angels Devestators may be *slightly* cheaper for the unit, but have 1 less dude, 1 fewer Heavy Weapon, and can't split fire, which makes all the difference in the world. Not even IG, the pre-eminent shooting army of this game, can pack such formidable firepower into 140pts with 5 ML's. Add to this they get Acute Senses, Counterattack and high Ld ATSKNF and they've got everything one would want in such a unit as Polonius pointed out.

15 BS4 split fire krak missiles for 420pts is more than a wee bit cheap.

Vaktathi wrote:
Not even IG, the pre-eminent shooting army of this game, can pack such formidable firepower into 140pts with 5 ML's.

True, they instead get 3 TL lascannons at 130 points

They do, but those three lascannons are far easier to silence than the five missile launchers.

They're both great units, to be sure, but you have to look at the whole board.

I recently read about dreadknight ("please, not again!") and thoguht:

naked dreadknight = 130 Pts.
naked carnifex = 160 Pts.

Please confirm or correct, they are nowhere close to similar:

different WS, BS and initiative set
different self-control (synapse)
different armor (+invul)
different shooting capability (naked)
different deployment possibilities (remember, naked)

DIFFERENT ARMY OVERALL FOR THEM TO COMBINE WITH.

This has been noted before, but do writers read each other's codices?

RxGhost wrote:No offense Ascalam, but it would appear to me that you have actually never played against necrons.

I'm not gonna' spend a lot of time debating the flawed points in your previous statement, but:

Necrons Warriors cost 2 points more than a space marine. TWO. They have a gun that auto glances any vehicle in the game, and every trooper is equipped with it. They have marine stats, marine armor, Ld 10 AND THEY GET BACK UP WHEN YOU KILL THEM. Two points. Oh, they have Init 2, sorry.

Also...

"They can be swept effortlessly by most armies in CC."

...seriously, that HAS to be a joke, you cannot honestly be so foolish as to believe this statement.

You don't 'glance vehicles to death' you shut them down. Getting a single glance result on any vehicle usually means, at the very least, it can't shoot at you. On a standard roll (d6-2) half the results you will get will lock a vehicle down and prevent it from firing at you.

And marines get frag grenades, can't be swept, automatically regroup (I believe regardless of squad size), get a bolt pistol AND a CCW for an extra attack in melee...Oh, and they can spend some points to get heavy weapons and power weapons in every squad. We won't get into the differences of some of the chapters either, such as black templar.

Now I play against some variety of marine on a regular basis (occasionally eldar) and against my buddy and his black templar we are about 50/50 on win/loss. Against vanilla marines and chaos though I haven't lost yet. But those two guys don't have a lot of vehicles for their armies so it's tough for them.


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bok_choy17 wrote:

Polonius wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Every space marine...

Even Dark Angels Company veterans?

Even Termies(40pts a model)

Yes, even termies.