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phantommaster wrote:Death Company when compared to Khorne Berzerkers.

20pts DC

Furious Charge
FNP
Rage
WS5
Loads of options
30 in a squad
Fearless
Lemartes
2 Attacks
Jump Packs

You forgot relentless.

Because when I think steady, precise gunfire, I think half-crazed, foaming murderous nutjobs!

taylor048 wrote:Comparing HQ choices? Dont you think that the warboss is underpriced at 90pts with a power claw & eavy armour
ws bs s t w i a ld sv
5 2 5 5 3 4 4 9 4+

sure his armour sucks but he makes up for that with strength 10 attacks!

I'm not sure I'd call him undercosted. He has no invulnerable save and no EW, and relatively low LD for an HQ.

He's great for what he does, but there are a lot of ways to deal with a warboss...

Sephyr wrote:

phantommaster wrote:Death Company when compared to Khorne Berzerkers.

20pts DC

Furious Charge
FNP
Rage
WS5
Loads of options
30 in a squad
Fearless
Lemartes
2 Attacks
Jump Packs

You forgot relentless.

Because when I think steady, precise gunfire, I think half-crazed, foaming murderous nutjobs!

Personally, I think that berserkers being scoring units without rage is a pretty big advantage! Agree that there has been some major creep in assault units between the two codexes though.

phantommaster wrote:Death Company when compared to Khorne Berzerkers.

21pts Khorne Berzerkers

Furious Charge
Fearless?
WS5
2 Attacks

20pts DC

Furious Charge
FNP
Rage
WS5
Loads of options
30 in a squad
Fearless
Lemartes
2 Attacks
Jump Packs

But at 20 points it's more like,

FNP and Rage vs Scoring.

Why would anyone take 30. 600 points for 30 no-scoring guys on foot that rage?

I wouldn't say DC are undercosted at all. Their upgrades are fairly expensive, and the rage rule is a huge penalty.

Agreed that Rage is a big setback, but still, whatever you drive them towards is going to eat it in the assault turn. And since you can get them in a LR or a Stormraven, you can take them to very sensitive areas.

I'm not saying they are a -great- unit, but they are good at clearing. And if you are facing hordes, orks, nids or just playing in a map with objectives that are close together, odds are they'll connect with something worth killing.

As for them being non-scroing, it's not really a huge deal. Neither are Banshees, Incubi or Killa Kans, but they'll remove the enemy's scoring units quite good and leave room for a small unit of troops to set up their camp.

Oblits. Long Fangs. Plague Marines. Noise Marines. Gray Hunters. Most Imperial Vehicles, especially Rhinos, Vendettas, Hydras and Chimeras.

Rhino and Razorback

BuFFo wrote:Oblits. Long Fangs. Plague Marines. Noise Marines. Gray Hunters. Most Imperial Vehicles, especially Rhinos, Vendettas, Hydras and Chimeras.

Noise Marines are, if anything, overpriced. You pay 5pts more than a standard CSM for +1 I and Fearless, to get a sonic blaster you have to pay 10pts more than a CSM and it then becomes the most pricey cult troop by 2pts. You also have to shell out in excees of 30pts for a blastmaster.

Avatar 720 wrote:

BuFFo wrote:Oblits. Long Fangs. Plague Marines. Noise Marines. Gray Hunters. Most Imperial Vehicles, especially Rhinos, Vendettas, Hydras and Chimeras.

Noise Marines are, if anything, overpriced. You pay 5pts more than a standard CSM for +1 I and Fearless, to get a sonic blaster you have to pay 10pts more than a CSM and it then becomes the most pricey cult troop by 2pts. You also have to shell out in excees of 30pts for a blastmaster.

I was about to post this too, NM are terribly overpriced.

I would pay more for a higher initiative on my necrons.

BuFFo wrote:Oblits. Long Fangs. Plague Marines. Noise Marines. Gray Hunters. Most Imperial Vehicles, especially Rhinos, Vendettas, Hydras and Chimeras.

Noise Marines are underpriced? That's news to me.

I also wouldn't say "most" Imperial Vehicles are underpriced. Some are yes, but I just don't see the Valk as being all that undercosted (the Vendetta yes) especially considering its T3 5+sv cargo.

Out of the IG book one might make a case for the Chimera, Hydra, and Manticore. The vendetta I don't think anyone will question, it's only really appropriately priced if one is taking them in full squadrons of 3. But it's hard to see the Leman Russ tanks, Artillery, Deathstrike, Hellhound & variants, and sentinels really being undercosted at all. Likewise I don't think there's a good case for Predators, Vindicators, Whirlwinds, Land Raiders or Land Speeders, or half the Razorback Variants, as being undercosted.

I'm surprised only one person said Gargoyles.

As cheap as a Hormagaunt, gains Blinding Venom which is extremely good (it's nearly old rending, just doesn't ignore saves) and wings. Biomorph options are 1 point each. You can have an incredibly powerful unit for a very small cost investment. Quite simply, they're nasty.

-Loki- wrote:I'm surprised only one person said Gargoyles.

As cheap as a Hormagaunt, gains Blinding Venom which is extremely good (it's nearly old rending, just doesn't ignore saves) and wings. Biomorph options are 1 point each. You can have an incredibly powerful unit for a very small cost investment. Quite simply, they're nasty.

The problem is that they can't hold objectives and need Synapse babysitting since their IB is Lurk and not Feed. Very good, but because of those two things it's hard to see them as undercosted.

Synapse babysitting isn't an issue, since you should have synapse around anyway. Holding objectives, well, most of the units people have listed can't do it either.

BuFFo wrote:Oblits. Long Fangs. Plague Marines. Noise Marines. Gray Hunters. Most Imperial Vehicles, especially Rhinos, Vendettas, Hydras and Chimeras.

Agreed on most, but NOise Marines?? They are the cost of Grey Knights and that's before they let you pay at least 5 points more each for the very thing that makes them different froma gang of vanilla CSM.

In fact, even if you just take a single sonic blaster each, it makes them the most expensive troop choice, 4 points above Berserkers and 2 above Plagues. The Blastmaster might be the most expensive small blast in game currently.

The Defiler,only 150.
pretty cheap,shame the model is 50 euro.

Anything in the Guard codex, really...

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:Anything in the Guard codex, really...

Not Everything. The Punisher and the whole Elite section certainly isn't.

Avatar 720 wrote:

3 units of Fire Dragons and 3 units of Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents

Just did the maths and these units completely barebones run at a total of 1020pts, that's without exarches or exarch powers, no upgrades, minimum model count and the cheapest serpent weapon which is a TL shuriken cannon.

If we make them more effective by giving the serpents TL MLs (their usual weapons) and spirit stones and also giving the Avengers a dual catapult exarch with bladestorm we now run at a total of 1296pts.

Who said Eldar were undercosted?

I played them for the last 2 years... very tricksy building lists under 2000pts, simply due to the nature of the force and opponents. Eldar are one force that cannot afford losses.

Luke_Prowler wrote:

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:Anything in the Guard codex, really...

Not Everything. The Punisher and the whole Elite section certainly isn't.

Marbo disagrees with you. 105 points for a more accurate meltacide which loses one melta but can fire next turn too is kinda good too...

Pre-FAQ Doom of Malan'Tai.

Remember the many lulz to be had when that 90 pt cheeseball hit the table?

Plague Marines

Defensive grenades, FNP,a 3+ save, T5, bolters, Fearless

22 points each! Best unit in the game, IMO. Except possibly grey hunters (5 missiles >;D)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Echoing Gargoyles as well. Put a unit of Shrikes or Raveners around them and you're good to go. They're flying termagants, for gaks sake! The one down side to foot slogging gaunts, gone!

Samus_aran115 wrote:Plague Marines

Defensive grenades, FNP,a 3+ save, T5, bolters, Fearless

22 points each! Best unit in the game, IMO. Except possibly grey hunters (5 missiles >;D)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Echoing Gargoyles as well. Put a unit of Shrikes or Raveners around them and you're good to go. They're flying termagants, for gaks sake! The one down side to foot slogging gaunts, gone!

Raveners are not synapse, and Shrikes are incredibly expensive and fragile.

Gargoyles are good, but you have to go out of your way to make them work. You end up spending more points on an overcosted unit just to bring that slightly undercosted unit to the table.

Long Fangs
Grey Hunters
Chimeras
IG Vet Squads
Vendettas
Hydras
PAGK (Includes Purifiers, Purgation Squads)

AvatarForm wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

3 units of Fire Dragons and 3 units of Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents

Just did the maths and these units completely barebones run at a total of 1020pts, that's without exarches or exarch powers, no upgrades, minimum model count and the cheapest serpent weapon which is a TL shuriken cannon.

If we make them more effective by giving the serpents TL MLs (their usual weapons) and spirit stones and also giving the Avengers a dual catapult exarch with bladestorm we now run at a total of 1296pts.

Who said Eldar were undercosted?

Justus wrote:Maybe I'm just the only one who thinks so, but Fire Dragons are undercosted! Seriously, 16 points for a Squad of dudes that all have melta guns. Combine them with the fairness of a wave serpent and you can basically count on a dead vehicle for each squad of Fire Dragons.

Fafnir wrote:...that's kind of the point of taking them in the first place...

Polonius wrote:

Justus wrote:Maybe I'm just the only one who thinks so, but Fire Dragons are undercosted! Seriously, 16 points for a Squad of dudes that all have melta guns. Combine them with the fairness of a wave serpent and you can basically count on a dead vehicle for each squad of Fire Dragons.

How much is the squad, and how much is the vehicle they slagged?

Unless it's a land raider, usually the Dragons out point anything they kill.

Avatar 720 wrote:Barebones Fragon unit in a Serpent costs 180pts (Serpent includes the least expensive necessary upgrade).

I have in fact tried to defend Eldar so far, you're the one who interpretted my maths as trying to prove them undercosted; the final total of those Eldar was more than 6 meltavet squads in 6 barebones Valks by almost 100pts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Samus_aran115 wrote:Plague Marines

Defensive grenades, FNP,a 3+ save, T5, bolters, Fearless

22 points each! Best unit in the game, IMO. Except possibly grey hunters (5 missiles >;D)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Echoing Gargoyles as well. Put a unit of Shrikes or Raveners around them and you're good to go. They're flying termagants, for gaks sake! The one down side to foot slogging gaunts, gone!

23pts each actually. They are also NOT T5, this is a huge misconception which adds to the whole "OMFG THEY'RE OVERPOWERED!!!" argument. They are in fact T4(5), which is a world of difference, as they can be instagibbed by S8; so battlecannons crush them as easily as any other marine, and krak missiles are also effective (since they will cause ID, no FNP is allowed, and since they're AP3 they don't get their armour save either).

Plague marines are a nice unit, but they're not as overpowered as people make them out to be.

AvatarForm wrote:

Who said Eldar were undercosted?

I played them for the last 2 years... very tricksy building lists under 2000pts, simply due to the nature of the force and opponents. Eldar are one force that cannot afford losses.

Nobody said they were, it was a comparison to an IG Valkyrie/Veteran list that ran roughly the same amount of points but less capable.

Avatar 720 wrote:

23pts each actually. They are also NOT T5, this is a huge misconception which adds to the whole "OMFG THEY'RE OVERPOWERED!!!" argument. They are in fact T4(5), which is a world of difference, as they can be instagibbed by S8; so battlecannons crush them as easily as any other marine, and krak missiles are also effective (since they will cause ID, no FNP is allowed, and since they're AP3 they don't get their armour save either).

Plague marines are a nice unit, but they're not as overpowered as people make them out to be.

Since they have only 1 wound, the Insta-death is quite immaterial. S7 weapons kill them just as dead.

But I agree they are not quite that hot as people say. They have lower Initiative, and when youe enemy tosses Lightning claws at you, trust me, it makes a BIG difference.

TH/SS Assault Termies.

Griever wrote:Gargoyles are good, but you have to go out of your way to make them work. You end up spending more points on an overcosted unit just to bring that slightly undercosted unit to the table.

They don't need a fast synapse unit to keep up with them. Due to their unit footprint, they can move fast and stay in foot slogging synapse range very easily. All they need is some synapse - which is covered by all HQ (including the cheap Tyranid Prime) and Warriors in troops, which can be taken for under 100 points. Which is the same requirement of any non troop unit in any other army.

Sephyr wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

23pts each actually. They are also NOT T5, this is a huge misconception which adds to the whole "OMFG THEY'RE OVERPOWERED!!!" argument. They are in fact T4(5), which is a world of difference, as they can be instagibbed by S8; so battlecannons crush them as easily as any other marine, and krak missiles are also effective (since they will cause ID, no FNP is allowed, and since they're AP3 they don't get their armour save either).

Plague marines are a nice unit, but they're not as overpowered as people make them out to be.

Since they have only 1 wound, the Insta-death is quite immaterial. S7 weapons kill them just as dead.

But I agree they are not quite that hot as people say. They have lower Initiative, and when youe enemy tosses Lightning claws at you, trust me, it makes a BIG difference.

But S7 weapons, unless it's an AP2 weapon, wont ignore their FnP save. That's the major difference, and one of the main perks for PMs.