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Nitros14 wrote:I don't know if Mephiston is actually undercosted but...

I look at his profile and abilities for 250 points.

Then I look at Ahriman in the Chaos Book for 250 points.

And seriously question if the people writing these books communicate.

Mephiston arguably casts better, Mephiston has two more strength and toughness, two more wounds, better armour save, better initiative and weapon skill and throws in a plasma pistol as well.

What does Ahriman get? 4+ invulnerable. Aw yeah.

Well, he gets Spawn, Spawn, Spawn each turn, or Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, etc.

Ahriman will impact the outcome of a game more than Mephiston because he does it from so much further away. Mephiston is only good at killing one thing. He isn't even good at killing a regular squad of Tac Marines (w/ Power Fist).

Ahriman, on the other hand, is an entire unit's worth of good shooting, and no slouch once assault comes either.

'No offense Ascalam, but it would appear to me that you have actually never played against necrons.
'

I play with them, and have been since 3rd ed, when they were good.

Have you since 5th broke, or against them?

The rest of my points have been covered by other posters who have actual experience playing them in 5th.

I feel like as a whole the IG codex is undercosted. 130 for the Vendetta, 75 for the Hydra, would it be crazy to suggest perhaps even the humble Guardsman is too cheap? Or at least the Veterans are.

Of course maybe I think this since I play Necrons and my main opponent is IG so everything seems so OP against me

I'm also curious to see how the Inq henchmen turn out.

asimo77 wrote:I feel like as a whole the IG codex is undercosted. 130 for the Vendetta, 75 for the Hydra, would it be crazy to suggest perhaps even the humble Guardsman is too cheap? Or at least the Veterans are.

Of course maybe I think this since I play Necrons and my main opponent is IG so everything seems so OP against me

I'm also curious to see how the Inq henchmen turn out.

It's very difficult to see basic Guardsmen as too cheap, especially relative to other similar cost units like Ork Boyz. Veterans likewise on their own its hard to see them as undercosted, they're only good units when mechanized, and the only time they aren't suicide units is when they're taken with a chimera. Vets without a transport are awful units, they require one to be effective, so one really needs to be factored into their cost as well.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
True, they instead get 3 TL lascannons at 130 points

While true, in terms of raw firepower and ability to avoid overkill shots, the Long Fangs are significantly better in those regards. I won't going to argue that the Vendetta isn't undercosted, but Long Fangs aren't really any better.

Vaktathi wrote:

asimo77 wrote:I feel like as a whole the IG codex is undercosted. 130 for the Vendetta, 75 for the Hydra, would it be crazy to suggest perhaps even the humble Guardsman is too cheap? Or at least the Veterans are.

Of course maybe I think this since I play Necrons and my main opponent is IG so everything seems so OP against me

I'm also curious to see how the Inq henchmen turn out.

It's very difficult to see basic Guardsmen as too cheap, especially relative to other similar cost units like Ork Boyz. Veterans likewise on their own its hard to see them as undercosted, they're only good units when mechanized, and the only time they aren't suicide units is when they're taken with a chimera. Vets without a transport are awful units, they require one to be effective, so one really needs to be factored into their cost as well.

True, but when their three transport options include the chimera, valk, and vendetta... you start to see a pattern.

Either way, Mechanized melta vets are undercosted by at least a bit, right? i dont' know if it's due to the vets or the Chimera, but they are.

Whirlwinds.. 85pts.. for the damage it can do, that's cheap.... if it hits.

Vaktathi wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:I agree with most of this thread...

Except Long Fangs...

Long fangs aren't undercosted? How so?

Oh, cos now that I play them I finally benefit from some of the coolest units in the game.

before I played Eldar and it took real skill and list-building to win a local tourney against 99% space marines.

Now I can take a unit of Long Fangs instead of a predator and smile as I rip my opponent apart in both shooting and h2h.

I think the reason I tend to believe lots of IG stuff is overcosted is because my brother's IG routinely kicks my ass :(

DarknessEternal wrote:Well, he gets Spawn, Spawn, Spawn each turn, or Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, etc.

Ahriman will impact the outcome of a game more than Mephiston because he does it from so much further away. Mephiston is only good at killing one thing. He isn't even good at killing a regular squad of Tac Marines (w/ Power Fist).

Ahriman, on the other hand, is an entire unit's worth of good shooting, and no slouch once assault comes either.

The Chaos Marine FAQ unfortunately states Ahriman can't bolt, bolt, bolt but instead has to do a rainbow of different ranged powers which is much less effective.

And Spawn has a low chance to work and is melee range.

RxGhost wrote:Belial of the Dark Angels is stupid undercosted, not even taking into account his special rules.

Really? Cause he is only a captain in terminator armor? Thats normally 140pts... Belial is only 130. Sure his ability to switch out gear is nice but I'm not sure he deserves a spot on this list.

Killa Kans on the other hand... YES

I run 9 kans for 405 pts... 35pts base cost for a walker...

A not so great walker, but spamming them is always good I love Kanz.

And they can actually shoot straight (well, straighter than orks)

Polonius wrote:

True, but when their three transport options include the chimera, valk, and vendetta... you start to see a pattern.

Either way, Mechanized melta vets are undercosted by at least a bit, right? i dont' know if it's due to the vets or the Chimera, but they are.

It's a case where either unit without the other is fine or even not particularly good, and when paired with other units aren't an issue, but when taken together synergize exceedingly well. Vets in Valks aren't usually too much of an issue, the squad tends to become a suicide unit and the Valk isn't putting out crazy insane firepower, I personally have find that 6 units of vets in 6 Valks isn't as scary as say, 3 units of Fire Dragons and 3 units of Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents.The Vendetta clearly is undercosted however in pretty much any capacity.

As to the vets in Chimeras, on one hand I feel they may be too effective, but on the other hand they don't have the survivability of many other mechanized troops either, once that transport goes the unit is often finished, and generally to make best use of their weapons means putting them where they are most vulnerable.

That said, the book also probably isn't getting an update before 2015, so we'll see what happens in the meantime

3 units of Fire Dragons and 3 units of Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents

Just did the maths and these units completely barebones run at a total of 1020pts, that's without exarches or exarch powers, no upgrades, minimum model count and the cheapest serpent weapon which is a TL shuriken cannon.

If we make them more effective by giving the serpents TL MLs (their usual weapons) and spirit stones and also giving the Avengers a dual catapult exarch with bladestorm we now run at a total of 1296pts.

and 6 units of meltavets in 6 barebones valks is 1200pts. Roughly similar. If we give the Valks rocket pods, then they become 1380pts, and those Valkyries are Squadroned, making them significantly easier to concentrate fire on and destroy, as well as limiting their options for maneuver and shooting.

Daemon Princes are cheap for what they bring. Especially compared to Chaos Lords/Sorcerers built to get the same results.

Kharn is also light on a point budget. Most players would pick him even if he was 180 points. If he had EW like in 3.5, I'd pick him for 200.

Vulkan is also a neat package for his points. Amazing saves, S6 re-rolling power weapon, heavy flamer and army-wide twin-linking of the very best SM weapons in any list? He should be priced at Marneus levels, honestly.

The Hydra is amazingly cheap for its killyness.

The new Rifledreads for Grey Knights have my friends who play other SM chapters looking at their own dreads like they were pot-smoking, disappointing children.

Long Fangs. Holy crap, Long Fangs. Between their rules and their weapon options, I wonder if their pricing wasn't a typo that stuck.

Marbo. There's really no reason NOT to take him, and it's easy to trim even a crowded list to make the points for him.

The Eldar Avatar of Khaine is also not that expensive. Its only real drawback is not keeping up with his own army, movement-wise.

More of an item on a character than the actual character its self.

But a necron lord with a warscythe is pretty damn nasty.
T5 and ignores all saves.
and the scythe comes in at a massive ..... 10 points.



Dont really want to just C+P what everyone else is saying, so for a second one ill go with:

Bloodcrushers.
Dont seem all that nasty, but 40 points for a 2W model thats S5, with a power weapon, decent attacks, 3+/5++
The list goes on.
Can even play wound bouncing with them.

Sephyr wrote:

Kharn is also light on a point budget. Most players would pick him even if he was 180 points. If he had EW like in 3.5, I'd pick him for 200.

As much as I like Kharn the Betrayer, I don't think I've ever seen him fielded outside of Apocalypse games, and isn't exactly known as being a power unit by any means. It's hard to see him as being an undercosted unit.

To be fair you give up a nice piece of wargear to upgrade to the scythe (Staff of light- and AP 3 Assualt 3, S 5? gun) so 10 Pts isnn't all that unreasonable, especially since the lord will either be swinging simultaneously or last vs MEQ with his I of 4, and he's also the only guy in the list who'll ever get to swing it before dying.

(Pariahs are named that for a reason: No-one wants to play with them )

If the army had options for Powerfist or Powerswords in the units (like marines, say..) i'd be good with upping the price, but as the only way to ignore armour in the army is warscythes or Ctan i think the price is ok

Agreed on the bloodcrushers: i've been steamrollered by them before

Death Company when compared to Khorne Berzerkers.

21pts Khorne Berzerkers

Furious Charge
Fearless?
WS5
2 Attacks

20pts DC

Furious Charge
FNP
Rage
WS5
Loads of options
30 in a squad
Fearless
Lemartes
2 Attacks
Jump Packs

Agreed on the bloodcrushers: i've been steamrollered by them before

Ive got into the bad habbit at the moment of running 3 units of 5 (all 3 upgrades)
Then 2 heralds with a few bits on juggers and skully on a jugger.

throw a character into each unit and they really do burn through things.




also, skulltaker really should be mentioned here.
He costs barely anything.
On a jugger he gets nastier, or for even cheaper, you can boost his stats even more in a chariot.
4+ instant death? sounds good to me, but not to you.



Edit: Phantom: Keep in mind mate that the jump packs ruin them as undercosted
You pay nearly as much for the jump pack as you do for another DC model.

Staff of Light is already a power weapon so you're just going from denying most saves to denying all saves. And of course the ten points are only part of the cost. You give up one of your few Ap3 shooting attacks to get it.

So, how many other weapons in basic 40k (no apoc) ignore inv saves?

A lot of WH stuff I think, like their version of Psybolt ammunition.

Jackal wrote:So, how many other weapons in basic 40k (no apoc) ignore inv saves?

A lot of the Daemonhunter stuff does, but won't once GK's come out (though they'll generally be higher strength and with rending as well now)

Daemon Princes are cheap for what they bring. Especially compared to Chaos Lords/Sorcerers built to get the same results.

Daemon Princes aren't really cheap, it's more that you're comparing them to the overcosted Chaos Lord/Sorcerer.

Thats not my question though.
What in 40k ignores inv saves? (aswell as normal saves)



My point is, such a thing is very rare.
Normally something like that stacks on alot of points, bu in this case you swap out a weapon and pay 10 points.

Next cheapest version comes from a C'tan

(we will ignore pariah's at this point since they are gak)

However, pariah's aint all bad now.
Just need the GK bandwagon to grow before i run a unit of them.
Since they are all psykers, the pariah's special rules actually get a use for once.

Ya, but the lord is base 100 points which is far greater than other HQ choices.

Kevin949 wrote:Ya, but the lord is base 100 points which is far greater than other HQ choices.

SM captain is 100 pts naked, so is a librarian, chaplains are more I think. Well BA reclusiarchs are more. So I don't think they're too expensive.

EmilCrane wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Ya, but the lord is base 100 points which is far greater than other HQ choices.

SM captain is 100 pts naked, so is a librarian, chaplains are more I think. Well BA reclusiarchs are more. So I don't think they're too expensive.

Didn't say they were too expensive or that there wasn't anything as expensive as the lord. Just pointing out that the lord was 100 points base for a mediocre HQ choice (but in our case, the ONLY HQ choice that isn't a C'Tan).

Comparing HQ choices? Dont you think that the warboss is underpriced at 90pts with a power claw & eavy armour
ws bs s t w i a ld sv
5 2 5 5 3 4 4 9 4+

sure his armour sucks but he makes up for that with strength 10 attacks!