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Dashofpepper wrote:4+ invuls on your Ravagers? Was that a mistype or have you been playing it that way?

Mistype. Scuse me

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:4+ invuls on your Ravagers? Was that a mistype or have you been playing it that way?

Mistype. Scuse me

The hulldown rule states that of you cannot se the side you are shooting at they get a 3+ coversave. If you model all your raiders etc on the same hight and you park one raide acros and another behind it should be easy ti give the one behind a 3+ coversave. That way you are dictating in what order they have to shoot your raiders in. It sounds easy enough to get a good coversave. :-)

Since raiders are open-topped....and actually open-topped, that isn't really feasible. You can get a 4+ cover save for doing so if you do it well, but the subject was a 4+ invulnerable save, not a cover save.

Dashofpepper wrote:@Exergy: Haemonculi don't belong in close combat. Mine either stay in their transports or get out separately (outside 2" coherency) to put their weaponry to work.
@Exergy/Sourclams: Whether I charge or shoot something depends completely on what's happening on the table. Cleansing Flame wounds any assaulting model on a 4+? In this case, I would weigh how many purifiers there were, how many wyches I had available to assault, how many pain tokens I had, and what my drugs were. As a vanilla scenario, 8 wyches take 4 wounds, make 2 saves, make 1 FNP, and take one casualty. Sure, I'll bite. In the last codex, I didn't even have plasma grenades, and generally was striking last, with smaller units, and without FNP. .

I know how much haemis suck in CC, I still usually give them a venom blade or sometimes even a power weapon in the hopes they might do something. I guess its not really how much they suck at dealing damage but how easy they are to kill with Ork boy stats. As ever will try to learn from you and make them as cheap as possible.


Forgot about the feel no pain! 87.5% survival rate. Might not even lose a model to the fire, very nice indeed.

I do think it is very posible to give the transports a full hulldown save as per the diagram on page 60. They are so long and so short (at least the new once are) that it is quite easy to hide behind another raider.

Cleansing flame isn't that good against wyches with a haem attached. After the 4+ invo and 4+fnp only 1/8 will die. That's better odds for the wytches than taking a s5 stormbolter to the fave.

I don't think wyches will be able to use their 4++ save against cleansing flame seeing how it is not a CC attack.

pdawg517 wrote:I don't think wyches will be able to use their 4++ save against cleansing flame seeing how it is not a CC attack.

Save this for YMDC - there's a thread about it.

You may also wish to consult the GK codex. You know, the part that says "Unsaved wounds caused by Cleansing Flame are counted as having been caused in close combat for all purposes."

Dashofpepper wrote:

pdawg517 wrote:I don't think wyches will be able to use their 4++ save against cleansing flame seeing how it is not a CC attack.

Save this for YMDC - there's a thread about it.

You may also wish to consult the GK codex. You know, the part that says "Unsaved wounds caused by Cleansing Flame are counted as having been caused in close combat for all purposes."

This made me fething laugh so hard.


Also Just wanted to pose a question, We all know we want the Haemos to usually stay in the raider. I Have the crucible on one of my 5 Haemos. Do you really think its a good idea to give them liquefier guns? You dont want to flame what the wyches will be assaulting(unless its tons of 'Nids or Orks and you have lots of assault room to spare) and once you drop the wyches off you dont want the raider to be getting to close to the enemy to flame them. I would imagine you would want to high tail it out of there and take pot shots with the dark lance at a safe range. So do you still advocate for the liquefier gun? Would you think a Hex rifle with its range is worth the 15 points and possible pinning(as unlikely as it will happen) or is 15 points to steep for that one shot. Or should i just leave the majority naked?

hmm So far, I always charge my haemi together with my wyches. Because I'm thinking that the haemi can contribute to some extra attacks.

Is that a bad idea?

Dashofpepper wrote:
Wych Coven

HQ1: 1x Haemonculi with 1x Liquifier and Crucible of Malediction
HQ2: 3x Haemonculi with 3x Liquifiers and 1x Shattershard

Troop1: 9x Wyches with a Hekatrix upgrade packing an agonizer; 9x Haywire Grenades // Raider, Dark Lance, Flickerfield
Troop2: 9x Wyches with a Hekatrix upgrade packing an agonizer; 9x Haywire Grenades // Raider, Dark Lance, Flickerfield
Troop3: 9x Wyches with a Hekatrix upgrade packing an agonizer; 9x Haywire Grenades // Raider, Dark Lance, Flickerfield
Troop4: 9x Wyches with a Hekatrix upgrade packing an agonizer; 9x Haywire Grenades // Raider, Dark Lance, Flickerfield


Elite1: 4x Kabalite Trueborn with 4x Blasters // Venom, Extra Splinter Cannon, Flickerfield
Elite2: 4x Kabalite Trueborn with 4x Blasters // Venom, Extra Splinter Cannon, Flickerfield
Elite3: 4x Kabalite Trueborn with 4x Blasters // Venom, Extra Splinter Cannon, Flickerfield

Heavy Support1: Ravager with 3x Dark Lances, Flickerfield
Heavy Support2: Ravager with 3x Dark Lances, Flickerfield
Heavy Support3: Ravager with 3x Dark Lances, Flickerfield

Trueborn take the place of the old warriors with dark lances. Wyches have lost cheap killing power but gained survivability, Ravagers don’t have access to plasma templates anymore, but there are more wyches that are more survivable now, and volume of fire from Venoms helps to offset the loss of powerful anti-troop fire. In some respects, splinter cannons are more effective anti-troop tools than the old Disintegrators – which scattered 2/3 of the time, and against intelligent opponents only caught 1-2 models on a direct hit anyway.

While opponents can still look at a wych unit and make a unit vs. unit comparison (how will my 10 assault marines fare against your 9 wyches), it will still come down to 18-27 wyches against a dedicated assault unit just to make sure the job gets done – unless they’re not packing power weapons or ork numbers, in which case nine wyches with an agonize and FNP + a drug on the charge should do the trick.

The key to success isn’t in overwhelming your opponent like an IG leafblower list, but in deciding what happens on the battlefield where and when.

I tried really hard to bash this list and point out that it's terribad....
But one has 10 AT sources a turn...
...3 of the best AI platforms since fast flamers...
......4 units of 9 bodies which should have 4+/4++...
........They also odds on will break any vehicle into it's component parts should they assault with enough bodies to try and surround anythign short of a LR...
...........Every one of the AT vehicles can up their 5++ to 4++ while becoming a road block....
..............1/6*4/6, that's only an 11% chance to kill a road block per attack - before factoring in actually penetrating the damn thing and the damage chart...
.................it contains a very potent anti-psyker tool...
....................and liquifiers and shatter shard...
.......................Oh and it's balls-out packed with redundency...

Dash, I like the list but wouldn't you need a dedicated objective holder if your wyches get bogged down and/or the raiders are destroyed. Maybe just a small unit of warriors - a unit that performs the same purpose as gretchin in a ork list?

@Bleakz87: Believe it or not, most of the time people forget that there is a haemonculi in the raider once the wyches get out. I announce that there is a haemonculi in each wych raider at the start of the game. When the wyches get out, I announce that the haemonculi is passing them his pain token. And most people still forget because the immediate raging threat is the gaggle of wyches about to cause havoc.

Wyches have the ability to get a turn one assault, turn two if the opponent isn't deployed on the line or in a DoW situation. To be honest, shooting at the raider a wych came out of is poor target prioritization for mechanized armies when there are much bigger threats on the table - three ravagers and three infantry ravagers (trueborn).

Also, generally speaking, the raider the wyches were in will have moved 12" and the haemonculi won't be able to flame out of it because it moved too fast - so there's a judgement call here. If my wyches are able to get out within 6-7" of an enemy unit....if there's enough models in flaming range to risk exposing the haemonculi....if there's another target available....a lot of "if" going on there. If nothing else, the Haemonculi can hang out in the raider for the turn and present its flamer the following turn. The crucible is now a limited range threat device - so using it is again going to be dependent on where and when you can get maximum potency from it.
-----------------------------------
@chee: Haemonculi don't have an invulnerable save and can be targeted in close combat separately - definitely a liability.
-----------------------------------
@Vrakk: You're thinking like a space marine. =p I take gretchin with my orks because my orks don't have the speed to get to objectives later on, and can't be arsed anyway because they're too busy krumpin'. In objective games with Dark Eldar, whether its a kabal or a wych cult...objectives *still* don't come into play until the end of the game even when I'm packing five squads of warriors and a wych. You won't see me getting onto an objective until turn 4-6, depending on time. For Dark Eldar, objectives are a fall-back means of winning the game in case you don't table your opponent.

That being said, it is a good idea to not *forget* the objectives.

I don't see any Shardnets listed...

Its a nice list, nothing fancy, nothing earthshattering. I kinda disagree with the duke comments (especially the idea that he can make your drug roll worse then normal) but he's not a good fit for this type of list so its moot.

hmm So far, I always charge my haemi together with my wyches. Because I'm thinking that the haemi can contribute to some extra attacks.

Haemonculus doesn't have fleet though -- could be an issue if you need that extra bit of distance.

winterman wrote:Its a nice list, nothing fancy, nothing earthshattering. I kinda disagree with the duke comments (especially the idea that he can make your drug roll worse then normal) but he's not a good fit for this type of list so its moot.

hmm So far, I always charge my haemi together with my wyches. Because I'm thinking that the haemi can contribute to some extra attacks.

Haemonculus doesn't have fleet though -- could be an issue if you need that extra bit of distance.

The Duke can't make it worse: don't the rules say he rolls two dice and chooses from them?

I forgot you can just leave the hammy in the raider That's a much better idea.

I've had the same sort of experience as you, pepper; with objectives. I rush everything out, with ravagers hiding behind my troops, and wait until like T5 to start contesting. If I have an object near my lines, I more or less hover around it until I realize there's nothing even close to it, then plop the wyches down

Nightwatch wrote:

winterman wrote:Its a nice list, nothing fancy, nothing earthshattering. I kinda disagree with the duke comments (especially the idea that he can make your drug roll worse then normal) but he's not a good fit for this type of list so its moot.

hmm So far, I always charge my haemi together with my wyches. Because I'm thinking that the haemi can contribute to some extra attacks.

Haemonculus doesn't have fleet though -- could be an issue if you need that extra bit of distance.

The Duke can't make it worse: don't the rules say he rolls two dice and chooses from them?

Yep I agree. The worse thing that can happen is get doubles and no choice, which is no better or worse then normal. One could argue that a 1 plus something else is not really a choice either but still, odds are better to get something you like. Now for this list, dash is paying the haemonculus tax for garaunteed paint tokens and if you are doing that then there's much less reason to take the Duke.

In a competitive setting, since the only thing the Duke can really bring to the table is the ability to re-roll drugs....I don't think that I would ever see justification for taking him. In any list, not just this one.

Dashofpepper wrote:In a competitive setting, since the only thing the Duke can really bring to the table is the ability to re-roll drugs....I don't think that I would ever see justification for taking him. In any list, not just this one.

Agreed almost every single unique HQ is underwhelming in the DE codex. The only one i would take is the baron... and maybe Vect in huge ass games.

Bleakz87 wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:In a competitive setting, since the only thing the Duke can really bring to the table is the ability to re-roll drugs....I don't think that I would ever see justification for taking him. In any list, not just this one.

Agreed almost every single unique HQ is underwhelming in the DE codex. The only one i would take is the baron... and maybe Vect in huge ass games.

I presume by underwhelming you mean balanced? No epic broken combos?

Ketara wrote:

Bleakz87 wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:In a competitive setting, since the only thing the Duke can really bring to the table is the ability to re-roll drugs....I don't think that I would ever see justification for taking him. In any list, not just this one.

Agreed almost every single unique HQ is underwhelming in the DE codex. The only one i would take is the baron... and maybe Vect in huge ass games.

I presume by underwhelming you mean balanced? No epic broken combos?

Balanced? No. I don't know how many points the Duke actually costs. I *do* posit that he offers nothing more than marginally useful on the tabletop, and because of that, he is not justified to ever be taken in any list. It doesn't matter how many points he costs, because he isn't worth it.

Ketara wrote:

Bleakz87 wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:In a competitive setting, since the only thing the Duke can really bring to the table is the ability to re-roll drugs....I don't think that I would ever see justification for taking him. In any list, not just this one.

Agreed almost every single unique HQ is underwhelming in the DE codex. The only one i would take is the baron... and maybe Vect in huge ass games.

I presume by underwhelming you mean balanced? No epic broken combos?

Leave it to games workshop to grow a conscience, whenever they make anything that isn't from the Imperium. I mean have you seen the other codex' special characters, its asinine.

but my point is similar to dashes. There is hardly ever any reason to take the other characters besides fluff and fun.

Bleakz87 wrote:
Leave it to games workshop to grow a conscience, whenever they make anything that isn't from the Imperium. I mean have you seen the other codex' special characters, its asinine.

but my point is similar to dashes. There is hardly ever any reason to take the other characters besides fluff and fun.

but XXX is really awesome... blah I cant lie at all. The best HQ in the codex is the haemi because he is the cheapest.

Dash, the list is certainly a good starting point for a wych based army and will be able to smash face on a fairly regular basis.

I've been thinking though and I'm having my doubts that it will be more effective than your kabal list against mech heavy armies. I think, in the long run, there are just too many points packed into fewer squads. Any hit they take on our paper airplanes and you lose a considerably larger chunk of your army than you would in an msu kabal list like your other one. I don't think the remainder of the army will be able to suppress enough fire to allow all of your wych squads to make it into cc by turn 1, assuming your opponent deploys on the line. Even if the wyches make it into cc turn 1, the raiders won't be in position to block LOS for the wyches for return fire if the wyches win cc. (assuming you go first). I probably should have posted this in the original discussion of the list though....I think, some batreps may be in order if you or anyone else is able. I would really like to see this list or a slight variation be played against someone like IG or a razorspam list. I won't be able to test it for the next couple of weeks myself.

Side note: The Duke actually gets to roll for drugs twice and you choose whichever of the 2 you want, which could be handy, but not for the points (150). However, the rest of his abilities are fairly useless for competitive play, as are the majority of the other characters, including the Baron, but he is the best of them and cheap to boot.

The duke only has two wounds, a horrible armour save, no unique weapons (other than his 3+ poison), and ST3 essentially making him one of the weakest special characters in the game, IMO. As said before, his 3+ poisoned ability accounts for very little, and any unit can get things done without him hogging up all those points.

The option of deep striking is pointless, since everything you'd want to deep strike can take retrofire jets anyway (Why you'd want to deep strike ravagers is beyond me. Even raiders. It's just not worth the risk, or the hindered assault capability) or shoot from far enough away to not need deep striking.

The duke sucks. You'll get much more use out of another couple Haemmies.

I agree that most of the Unique characters are quite underwhelming. The baron is the only one that seems even slightly worth his points (he's the only thing that switches up the FOC in the whole codex besides haemmies). Vect is pretty neat, but he's a crapload of points, and even in a 3000 point game, I'd probably go with 6 Haemmies over him...

When people post incorrect info on something (or claim they don't even know something as simple as his point cost), I have a hard time being convinced regarding their conclusion. Shrug.

Dukes armor save sucks, except for the shadow field. Duke has a 2+ poison weapon that is a power weapon on rolls of 5-6 to wound -- so its better then a 3+ and better then a venom blade. His DS ability is better then retrofire jets, cause the occupants can get out and shoot -- making it useful on occasion with trueborn with blasters or 5man warriors with blaster/pistol if playing from reserves. His poison ability isn't earthshattering, but can be leveraged pretty easily.

He isn't a must have nor is he overtly competitive, but he doesn't suck imo.

I think the best dark eldar lists will not revolve around an MSU or min\max approach to list building. That might sound like a bold or simply ignorant statement but like Tyranids there is a new wave of players opening this codex and seeing what they can do. Phil Kelly has always written great books, maybe this is his signature. I think we will all learn together by sharing our ideas together at places here like Dakka Dakka. Dark eldar will never be as popular as the top Spaced Marine armies but I think it can be just as strong. The new codex is awesome with a plethora of great units to choose from in every slot. That is very exciting in and of itself.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:I think the best dark eldar lists will not revolve around an MSU or min\max approach to list building. That might sound like a bold or simply ignorant statement but like Tyranids there is a new wave of players opening this codex and seeing what they can do. Phil Kelly has always written great books, maybe this is his signature. I think we will all learn together by sharing our ideas together at places here like Dakka Dakka. Dark eldar will never be as popular as the top Spaced Marine armies but I think it can be just as strong. The new codex is awesome with a plethora of great units to choose from in every slot. That is very exciting in and of itself.

I don't think you understand what min/maxing is because your first sentence is very contradicting of itself. Either that or your definition of "best" doesn't really mean "best".

Samus_aran115 wrote:The duke only has two wounds, a horrible armour save, no unique weapons (other than his 3+ poison), and ST3 essentially making him one of the weakest special characters in the game, IMO. As said before, his 3+ poisoned ability accounts for very little, and any unit can get things done without him hogging up all those points.

The option of deep striking is pointless, since everything you'd want to deep strike can take retrofire jets anyway (Why you'd want to deep strike ravagers is beyond me. Even raiders. It's just not worth the risk, or the hindered assault capability) or shoot from far enough away to not need deep striking.

The duke sucks. You'll get much more use out of another couple Haemmies.

The number of wounds a DE character has doesn't make much difference a surprisingly large % of the time, it doesn't matter how many wounds you have when you get hit by S6+ which is something the majority of assault based units bring with them. That's a failing of all T3 characters though and for DE that's never going to go away.
Anyway most of the rest of those comments are just totally wrong, the Duke has a Shadowfield and Ghostplate, which is the best protection available to Dark Eldar. He has a poisoned weapon which wounds on 2+ with super rending, which I'm pretty sure counts as a unique weapon no matter how you look at it and means S3 is totally irrelevant (unless you think he needs a re-roll to wound against T4 ...). 3+ Poison is certainly not something to turn down, even if you just take a couple of Splinter Cannons in a Blaster Trueborn unit it can be very helpful. I'm not investing huge amount of points into a massive squad fully loaded up with Splinter Cannons and Shardcarbines, but instead just sticking him with 3-4 Trueborn with 2 Splinter Cannons (in a transport obviously) to be a general nuisance. They actually end up being a decent way of harvesting some Pain Tokens early on (which the Duke can steal when he leaves the unit to join Wyches/assault something), most other long ranged anti infantry comes from Venoms which can't grab pain tokens. Just torrent a squad down to the last couple of guys and then use the Trueborn to finish them off and grab the Token.

Deep Striking is situational, but certainly not pointless. You obviously would never Deep Strike Ravagers, but stuff like Blaster Trueborn can make very effective use of it. Retrofire Jets are totally inferior to the Low Orbit Raid rule because they don't allow you to disembark (and therefore shoot) on the turn you arrive. Considering that DE will often have to make use of reserves if they want to have a chance against gunlines when going second, being able to turn up and blaster something almost anywhere on the table is imo definitely worthwhile. In similar situations it can even be worth Deep Striking assault units like Wyches (although I would never Deep Strike more than a couple in case you run out of room to land), if the enemy isn't going to come to you then dropping in his half of the table and firing can often be more helpful than moving flat out into his face and hoping for the best. Both get you within assault range for next turn and out of your opponents rapid fire range but one option means you get to shoot and then have a 5++, the other you don't shoot and get a 4+. Even if I ignore my Ravagers Low Orbit Raid gives me 45pts (slightly more considering its better than Retrofire Jets) of free upgrades, which even if I make limited use of them at the very least increase my tactical options.

150pts might seem like quite a bit, but if you take a list which makes use of all his abilities imo its a bargain. A similarly equipped Archon is only 5pts less, and exchange for a few points of lost stats you get a huge boost for Wyches (how can he possibly make them worse btw?, its roll 2 dice and choose), a minor boost to a unit of Trueborn/Warriors and a useful but admittedly largely situational boost for your vehicles. Yes you could get 3 more Haemonculi for his points, but seriously how many Haemonculi do you need? My main concern is that you end up overloaded with Pain Tokens from the start and don't really gain much (or even get worse -> Fearless in combat) as you start killing things. Really all you want is FNP on you most important units at the very start, and ideally want all your Wyches to have Pain Tokens by the time they hit combat (in some cases you don't need it, against Terminators for example). I manage this with 2 Haemonculi and two units of 3 Wracks and the extra roll on the Drugs chart means I can be flexible where I place them depending on what I'm facing. For example if I get a 6 then against stuff like Guard who Wyches don't need much help to kill I could put the Haemonculi with my Blaster Trueborn and then every unit in the army starts with FNP. Alternatively if I'm up against a purely assault based list then I can even ignore a 6 if I get one and instead take something like re-rolls to wound knowing that I can easily get Pain Tokens where they are needed before I hit combat.