Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Dashofpepper wrote:My point is that skimmers can land anywhere they want. The rules reference you are talking about on page 83 is specifically for moving TROOPS in ruins. Which ones can move up and down levels, which ones can only access the bottom floor. Page 83 has nothing to do with skimmer movement.

True that the first paragraph on page 83 doesn't specifically mention skimmers. It also doesn't specifically mention artillery. So can you move an artillery unit onto the upper level of a ruin? The rules say no.
The rule I quoted says "...only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin." {emphasis mine}
Is a skimmer any of these unit types? No? Then it is an "other" type unit, and the last sentence says, "Other units may only move on the ground level of a ruin."

If you have a building and it is classified as impassable, the skimmer can end its move on top because the skimmer rules allow it.
If you classify the roof of a ruin as impassable terrain, the skimmer can end its move on top because the skimmer rules allow it.
If you have a ruin, and it is classified as such, it is area terrain and the skimmer can only move on the ground level of the ruin, because the rules for ruins only allow vehicles to move on the ground level.

time wizard wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:My point is that skimmers can land anywhere they want. The rules reference you are talking about on page 83 is specifically for moving TROOPS in ruins. Which ones can move up and down levels, which ones can only access the bottom floor. Page 83 has nothing to do with skimmer movement.

True that the first paragraph on page 83 doesn't specifically mention skimmers. It also doesn't specifically mention artillery. So can you move an artillery unit onto the upper level of a ruin? The rules say no.

Indeed. And the rules for artillery don't say that the artillery can. But the rules for skimmers *do*.

Dashofpepper wrote: Indeed. And the rules for artillery don't say that the artillery can. But the rules for skimmers *do*.

And the rules for ruins allow skimmers to only move on the ground level!!!!

time wizard wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote: Indeed. And the rules for artillery don't say that the artillery can. But the rules for skimmers *do*.

And the rules for ruins allow skimmers to only move on the ground level!!!!

That is not true. The rules for ruins only address infantry/troop models moving between levels of ruins. They say nothing about skimmers.

You arent moving on the bottom level. You are landing there....

looiking the rule, it does say "other types of units" are you saying that skimmers dont fall into the "other" category dashofpepper?

If is doesn't fall into the "other" category, could you explain how a skimmer is either, Infantry, Jump infantry, MC, Walker or a Jetbike?

Im trying to understand your reasoning.

I don't know either way, but it seems that since the rule mentioned jump infantry (specifically allowing them to move to the different levels) it might have been intentional to not mention skimmers... but I am not up on my 40k mechanics and on what can fly around and land on what

Dashofpepper wrote:That is not true. The rules for ruins only address infantry/troop models moving between levels of ruins. They say nothing about skimmers.

They do, however, give a specific list of those unit types that can move on the upper levels, and restrict all other unit types to the ground floor.

Since skimmers don't appear on that list, they fall into the 'other unit types' catchall. Since there is nothing in the skimmer rules that would specifically over-ride this, skimmers are stuck on the ground floor in ruins.

insaniak wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:That is not true. The rules for ruins only address infantry/troop models moving between levels of ruins. They say nothing about skimmers.

They do, however, give a specific list of those unit types that can move on the upper levels, and restrict all other unit types to the ground floor.

Since skimmers don't appear on that list, they fall into the 'other unit types' catchall. Since there is nothing in the skimmer rules that would specifically over-ride this, skimmers are stuck on the ground floor in ruins.

So if the skimmer can't physically fit into the ground floor, then what?

WMS?

Then Wobbly Model Syndrome sets in, and you place it as close as possible to where it should be.

The easiest option being to sit it on top of the ruin, usually. Just as you would if you're trying to sit your skimmer in a forest that has trees in the way where you want to place it.

Formosa wrote:looiking the rule, it does say "other types of units" are you saying that skimmers dont fall into the "other" category dashofpepper?

If is doesn't fall into the "other" category, could you explain how a skimmer is either, Infantry, Jump infantry, MC, Walker or a Jetbike?

Im trying to understand your reasoning.

You are correct. Within the specified category of "troops" and "infantry" that it is talking about, only the following subcategories of "troops" and "infantry" may move to upper levels. Then it goes on to describe how each of those allowed does so. Disallowed "troops" and "infantry" would be anything on a bike, cavalry, and.....possibly beasts, although I'm not sure about them anymore. These "other" category units are not allowed. All of those are still a subset of one kind of unit, all of which don't address vehicles.

My reasoning is that page 83 has nothing to do with skimmers because it is explicit about what kind of units the rules on that page are referring to.

Here's a broader example:

"Only certain troops are capable of firing weapons. Accordingly, only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers may fire weapons, and only if the model is equipped with one. Other units may not fire weapons."

Alright....that means that any infantry model without a weapon doesn't get to fire them, nor do any beast or cavalry or biker unit. But wait!!! NO VEHICLES get to fire weapons either!!

That's my point. That page is explicit about the unit types that they are issuing rules for. Within the category of "troops" which in this case looks to be descriptive of any model with wounds except for walkers....it lists what can move between levels of ruins. Since skimmers don't have wounds, they aren't troops, nor infantry.....the rules on page 83 aren't written for them and don't apply to them - just like the rules for "how to multi-assault" aren't written for rhinos, or assaulting with one.

Also remember, a bit of supporting (old) evidence from Cityfight. I believe the Cityfight rules specifically say that skimmers are assumed to be on the top level of a building.

But a ruin is not a building.
They are 2 very different things.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Formosa wrote:looiking the rule, it does say "other types of units" are you saying that skimmers dont fall into the "other" category dashofpepper?

If is doesn't fall into the "other" category, could you explain how a skimmer is either, Infantry, Jump infantry, MC, Walker or a Jetbike?

Im trying to understand your reasoning.

You are correct. Within the specified category of "troops" and "infantry" that it is talking about, only the following subcategories of "troops" and "infantry" may move to upper levels. Then it goes on to describe how each of those allowed does so. Disallowed "troops" and "infantry" would be anything on a bike, cavalry, and.....possibly beasts, although I'm not sure about them anymore. These "other" category units are not allowed. All of those are still a subset of one kind of unit, all of which don't address vehicles.

My reasoning is that page 83 has nothing to do with skimmers because it is explicit about what kind of units the rules on that page are referring to.

Here's a broader example:

"Only certain troops are capable of firing weapons. Accordingly, only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers may fire weapons, and only if the model is equipped with one. Other units may not fire weapons."

Alright....that means that any infantry model without a weapon doesn't get to fire them, nor do any beast or cavalry or biker unit. But wait!!! NO VEHICLES get to fire weapons either!!

That's my point. That page is explicit about the unit types that they are issuing rules for. Within the category of "troops" which in this case looks to be descriptive of any model with wounds except for walkers....it lists what can move between levels of ruins. Since skimmers don't have wounds, they aren't troops, nor infantry.....the rules on page 83 aren't written for them and don't apply to them - just like the rules for "how to multi-assault" aren't written for rhinos, or assaulting with one.

Not being rude, but none of that made sense, and still didn't answer the question, is a SKIMMER either "infantry" unit type
"Jump Infantry" unit type, "Montrous Creature", "Walker" or a "Jetbike"?
I have no idea where this "troops" thing comes into it.

Im just not understanding what you have tried to say, even the analogy didn't seem relevent?

Dashofpepper wrote: Since skimmers don't have wounds, they aren't troops, nor infantry.....

From where exactly are you getting this definition of 'troops'?



Not that it's particularly relevant, since you've got it backwards. The rules for moving in ruins don't say that they only apply to 'troops'... they allow certain types of troops to move on upper levels, and disallow anyone else from doing so.

If only men between the ages of 15 and 30 are allowed in the Gym change rooms, and everybody else is only allowed in the foyer, are women allowed in the change room?

By your logic, it would appear so... you're claiming that since women aren't men, the rule doesn't apply to them... despite the fact that women would be caught by the 'everybody else' clause.

Only troops of the kinds listed can move on the upper levels of a ruin. A skimmer is not a troop of any of the types listed... and so as per the part of the rule that refers to 'other units' (meaning, 'units that are not one of the types specifically listed) can only move on the ground floor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Grog wrote:Also remember, a bit of supporting (old) evidence from Cityfight. I believe the Cityfight rules specifically say that skimmers are assumed to be on the top level of a building.

If you're referring to 'Cities of Death' (Cityfight is long, long out of date)... it was written for 4th edition, and uses slightly different terrain rules.

Dashofpepper wrote:"troops" and "infantry"

The rule doesn't mention infantry anywhere but in the list of allowed unit types. I agree the word troops is ackwardly choosen (units would have been better), but keep in mind this is not the same as Troops (with a capital), the FOC type. So no, skimmers can't move onto the upper floors of ruins.

Rule of interest:

"Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper level of ruins. Accordingly, only infantry, jump infantry, jet bikes, monstrous creatures, and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can physically be placed there. Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin."

Opps misquoted rule, left out jetbikes.

The use of "troops" in the first sentence is clearly not referring to the FOC type Troops.

So what should we take it to mean?

In the final sentence it states "Other units ... " which leads me to believe that by "troops" they meant units.

I don't think any other interpretation of the term "troops" is as likely.

So skimmers, being other units, may not move onto upper floors of ruins.

Considering they didn't mention bikes/jet bikes in that "rule of interest", it would seem to me they weren't referencing anything else outside of infantry (see, FOOTED) models/units.

So, you're telling me jet bikes can't go to top level ruins either?

Kevin949 wrote:So, you're telling me jet bikes can't go to top level ruins either?

The Ruins rules specifically allow jetbikes on the top floor of ruins...

insaniak wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:So, you're telling me jet bikes can't go to top level ruins either?

The Ruins rules specifically allow jetbikes on the top floor of ruins...

I thought so, but his (manimal) quote lead one to believe otherwise.

I remember the skimmer issue coming up in a game. I had previously considered them to be ok in movement in the same respect as Jetbikes, but the rules state that vehicles (which includes skimmers) cannot. Or it leaves them out... I can't remember which. Can they land on top of garrisonable structures? No clue. I'd look it up if I wasn't drinking.

Not that that, or the RAW makes much sense with gameplay, but it's there for game balance and exists for a reason. Walkers move like infantry. Ergo, they can climb floors on ruins.

diesel7270 wrote:I remember the skimmer issue coming up in a game. I had previously considered them to be ok in movement in the same respect as Jetbikes, but the rules state that vehicles (which includes skimmers) cannot. Or it leaves them out... I can't remember which.

As has already been pointed out, it doesn't include them in the list of unit types which can move on upper levels, and explicitly prohibits all other units from doing so.

Can they land on top of garrisonable structures?

They can land on unoccupied buildings if there is space for them to sit, yes. Not really relevant, though, since buildings and ruins have completely separate and very different rules.

Walkers move like infantry. Ergo, they can climb floors on ruins.

Actually, in this specific situation that wouldn't be enough. Otherwise walkers could also embark into vehicles.

What allows walkers to climb floors in ruins is the specific allowance for them to do so in the ruins rules.

insaniak wrote:

diesel7270 wrote:I remember the skimmer issue coming up in a game. I had previously considered them to be ok in movement in the same respect as Jetbikes, but the rules state that vehicles (which includes skimmers) cannot. Or it leaves them out... I can't remember which.

As has already been pointed out, it doesn't include them in the list of unit types which can move on upper levels, and explicitly prohibits all other units from doing so.

Can they land on top of garrisonable structures?

They can land on unoccupied buildings if there is space for them to sit, yes. Not really relevant, though, since buildings and ruins have completely separate and very different rules.

Walkers move like infantry. Ergo, they can climb floors on ruins.

Actually, in this specific situation that wouldn't be enough. Otherwise walkers could also embark into vehicles.

What allows walkers to climb floors in ruins is the specific allowance for them to do so in the ruins rules.

Walkers can embark on super-heavy vehicles with enough transport capacity. I don't know the storm raven rules off the top of my head yet but I know they can be carried by a storm raven as well. Just sayin.

Kevin949 wrote:
Walkers can embark on super-heavy vehicles with enough transport capacity. I don't know the storm raven rules off the top of my head yet but I know they can be carried by a storm raven as well. Just sayin.

Which is a specific rule which grants specific permission.
Just like the rule for the upper level of ruins that gives specific unit specific permission to move there.

Skimmers don't 'move on' - they 'land' and have no restrictions in this regard except where other models and the ability to place the skimmer is concerned.

Again, Jetbikes and Jump Infantry move in the same fashion but would be unable to assault if they were not specifically listed. Skimmers have no alternative types of voluntary movement (a Monolith 'landing' on it might have a good shot though!) and so hardly need a clause allowing them to use a type of movement that they are not capable of anyway. Skimmers cannot elect to regard area terrain, they must ignore it. Ruins are area terrain - verbatim.

So the conclusion is that if a Skimmer ends its move above a ruin, it takes a difficult terrain test (unless a Tau vehicle with Sensor Spines) and descends to the ground floor.

Kilkrazy wrote:So the conclusion is that if a Skimmer ends its move above a ruin, it takes a difficult terrain test (unless a Tau vehicle with Sensor Spines) and descends to the ground floor.

Except....that the assumption that they move on the bottom floor is coming from a section of the rules that is explicitly specific in talking about infantry and troops - call it what you will, but non-vehicular units. I really do see this as trying to take what is allowed or not allowed amongst non-vehicle units and trying to apply it to them.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:So the conclusion is that if a Skimmer ends its move above a ruin, it takes a difficult terrain test (unless a Tau vehicle with Sensor Spines) and descends to the ground floor.

Except....that the assumption that they move on the bottom floor is coming from a section of the rules that is explicitly specific in talking about infantry and troops - call it what you will, but non-vehicular units. I really do see this as trying to take what is allowed or not allowed amongst non-vehicle units and trying to apply it to them.

Since when are walkers not vehicles?

Redemption wrote:
Since when are walkers not vehicles?

Walkers are vehicles.
But the rules on page 83 for moving within ruins grants walkers permission to move on the upper floors of ruins.
Other vehicles do not have that specific permission being given.