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As soon as a skimmer starts moving it ignores terrain (unless it first had to make a dangerous terrain test), and as soon as its movement ends it isn't moving any more.
It may now find itself 'in terrain' but as soon as it elects to move again the terrain is ignored. If it fails the initial DT test it does not move.

It isn't that skimmers aren't allowed to move on the upper levels, it's simply that they never count as moving whilst 'in' terrain anyway. They have an exclusive instruction if they begin their move in terrain but this potentially interrupts the movement. If its movement ends, terrain is considered and the exclusive instruction may come into effect again. One way or another, a moving skimmer does not regard terrain unless it isn't moving any more. On a roll of '1' it's never going to move again anyway, so it isn't at risk of breaking any further rules!

time wizard wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:
Walkers can embark on super-heavy vehicles with enough transport capacity. I don't know the storm raven rules off the top of my head yet but I know they can be carried by a storm raven as well. Just sayin.

Which is a specific rule which grants specific permission.
Just like the rule for the upper level of ruins that gives specific unit specific permission to move there.

Ya, but to imply that walkers couldn't embark on vehicles is not wholly true as there ARE rules for it. I was just pointing it out though.

Arctik_Firangi wrote: As soon as a skimmer starts moving it ignores terrain (unless it first had to make a dangerous terrain test), and as soon as its movement ends it isn't moving any more.
It may now find itself 'in terrain' but as soon as it elects to move again the terrain is ignored. If it fails the initial DT test it does not move.

This isnt about skimmers moving over any terrrain at all. Skimmers are allowed to move over terrain and other models.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:It isn't that skimmers aren't allowed to move on the upper levels, it's simply that they never count as moving whilst 'in' terrain anyway.

Please look at the second sentence on page 83. It has been quoted a few times already, but here again, "...only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin...".
Can a skimmer move over a friendly model? Sure it can, but it can't end it's move there.
Can a skimmer move over the top floor of a ruin? Sure it can, but it can't end its move there.
It is not one of the specific types of units that can move on the upper level of a ruin, so it can't be placed there.
I don't know how many different ways the same rule can be explained, vehicles (except walkers) cannot be moved, and therefore cannot be placed, on the upper levels of ruins.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:They have an exclusive instruction if they begin their move in terrain but this potentially interrupts the movement. If its movement ends, terrain is considered and the exclusive instruction may come into effect again. One way or another, a moving skimmer does not regard terrain unless it isn't moving any more. On a roll of '1' it's never going to move again anyway, so it isn't at risk of breaking any further rules!

This is not about terrain in general. This is about moving in ruins. Ruins are a type of area terrain that have their own specific rules, 4 pages of them in fact!
Please take the time to read through pages 82 through 85 in the BRB.

The problem with quoting page 83 for skimmers is that skimmers don't "move on" anything. They take off and land. Page 83 is pretty explicit in the unit types that they are categorizing to create and define rules for. Troops, infantry, and walkers - all of which move in, move on, move through, and in any way care about levels of terrain.

Oh please, I posted the first Dakka OrkFacePalm, don't give me that.

The skimmer can't move in ruins. It can not move on them. You're looking at the exact same point as I am except that you insist that it involves moving in or on ruins. It does not. It cannot possibly regard the ruin, which is area terrain, whilst moving, because it is a skimmer.

So a skimmer moves on all terarain and ignores the specific rules of the terrain it moves over, into, through, onto, on top of, or any other manner of movement?

Unless it is beginning its movement, or it has ended its movement, that is correct with the exception of compulsory dangerous terrain tests under certain circumstances. It can never move 'on' the upper level of a ruin because its mechanics don't allow it to occur - not being allowed to is irrelevant. Neither can Jetbikes or Jump Infantry using their jump packs, for that matter.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Neither can Jetbikes or Jump Infantry using their jump packs, for that matter.

Are you saying that jump infantry and jetbikes can't move their full 12" onto the upper level of a ruin?

I'm saying that they can and do so in the exact same fashion as Skimmers. They don't need an exception for this movement, but they do require an exception in order to assault or for Jump Infantry to elect to move as regular infantry (because this movement does not ignore terrain).

Good night!

Arctik_Firangi wrote:I'm saying that they can and do so in the exact same fashion as Skimmers. They don't need an exception for this movement, but they do require an exception in order to assault or for Jump Infantry to elect to move as regular infantry (because this movement does not ignore terrain).

Good night!

Before you go to bed, take another quick look at page 83 where the 3rd section down deals with jump infantry and jetbikes in ruins.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Skimmers don't 'move on' - they 'land' ...

So how do they land there without moving there...?

Kilkrazy wrote:So the conclusion is that if a Skimmer ends its move above a ruin, it takes a difficult terrain test (unless a Tau vehicle with Sensor Spines) and descends to the ground floor.

Spot on.

Dashofpepper wrote:Except....that the assumption that they move on the bottom floor is coming from a section of the rules that is explicitly specific in talking about infantry and troops - call it what you will, but non-vehicular units.

So I'll ask again: where are you getting that definition of 'troops' from?

And also again: the fact that it is granting permission to perform a given action to certain types of troops does not allow any other type of unit to ignore the rule in question... particularly when the rule granting that permission specifically prohibits other types of units from performing that action.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote: Page 83 is pretty explicit in the unit types that they are categorizing to create and define rules for.

Again, page 83 is not dealing exclusively with certain types of unit. It is granting permission to certain types of unit, and explicitly prohibiting every other type of unit.

If the rule is only supposed to apply to the unit types that you have defined as troops, then who exactly are they talking about when they refer to 'other units' being restricted to the ground floor?

Troops, infantry, and walkers - all of which move in, move on, move through, and in any way care about levels of terrain.

'Troops', as used throughout the rulebook (aside from in the actual setting up an army part), is not referring to a type of unit. There is no definition of 'troops' as referring to infantry units, or non-vehicle units. It is simply referring to models in your army. So what page 83 is saying is that there are certain types of models in your army that can move on the upper floors of ruins... and that those types are the types specifically listed.

Saying that vehicles aren't restricted by this rule because vehicles aren't troops is completely backwards. Unless you can find some other rule that would allow vehicles to move on the upper floor of ruins that over-rides the 'other units' clause, vehicles other than walkers would have to be included in that list to move on the upper levels.

+1 to insaniak above.

Page 83 is pretty explicit in the unit types that they are categorizing to create and define rules for. Troops, infantry, and walkers - all of which move in, move on, move through, and in any way care about levels of terrain.

No, the rule refers to troops (which is not a clearly defined term)

It then goes on to state some types of "troops" are allowed to move on upper levels of a ruin.

These units are clearly implied to be "troops" but there is no indication that this is an exhaustive list of what is meant by "troops". In fact, as insaniak stated before "troops" is often used throughout the rulebooks as meaning the models in your army. The second sentence is not a definition of the term "troops".

The final sentence refers to "other units" which is a clearly defined term and states they can only move on the ground level of the ruin.

Taking "troops" to mean Troops, infantry, and walkers is not supported in the rules (as it is not defined) or in the context of this this paragraph which implies that "troops" means units because of the final sentence starting with the term "other units" (as in opposed to the units that have already been listed in the rule).

You also overlooked one of the important types allowed, jetbikes (though I did leave them out in my original posting of the rule). Jetbikes, as you put it, do not move in, move on, move through, and in any way care about levels of terrain but move much more like skimmers.

So, their list of "troops" includes vehicles and something that moves almost exactly like a skimmer.


Here is the rule again for reference:
"Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper level of ruins. Accordingly, only infantry, jump infantry, jet bikes, monstrous creatures, and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can physically be placed there. Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin."

time wizard wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:I'm saying that they can and do so in the exact same fashion as Skimmers. They don't need an exception for this movement, but they do require an exception in order to assault or for Jump Infantry to elect to move as regular infantry (because this movement does not ignore terrain).

Good night!

Before you go to bed, take another quick look at page 83 where the 3rd section down deals with jump infantry and jetbikes in ruins.

I'm very aware of that section. It instructs you on moving jetbikes and jump infantry using their jump packs with regards to ruins, since the terrain is ignored and the normal rules (infantry movement) don't apply. The paragraph you're referring to is a reminder to ignore this terrain as normal skimmers, jetbikes and jump packs ignore all terrain whilst moving - they only regard it when they intend to move or have finished moving. At no point, whilst moving, can a skimmer, jetbike or jump infantry model be considered to be moving 'on' the upper level of a ruin, even when falling back, unless assaulting. Although jetbikes ignore terrain when charging they must still move 'in' terrain to qualify for ignoring difficult terrain.

A skimmer landing on the top level of a ruin makes a lot more sense than a Dreadnought climbing a ladder but what the heck. I only have one army that uses any skimmers whatsoever, and I'm not going to complain because my opponent's skimmers can avoid my Orks... and at least Bloodcrushers are Infantry.

I'll leave this one alone since a few of you have linked arms, but I'm not going to start placing my flamer template with the narrow end touching my base and covering but not touching friendly models because that's what the rules technically require you to do. My understanding of Skimmer movement is only ever so slightly different to all of yours, but it makes a big difference.

I can understand the skimmer automatically landing on the ground floor except for the fact that the vehicle in no way regards the terrain as long as it is moving - hence it never moves 'on', 'in' or 'through' any terrain whatsoever, and is not restricted from anything on p.83 because it can never interact with those conditions via the game mechanics!

Meh, that's my call. Time to go field my Daemons against GKs all day and get stomped. Byeeee