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Is there any other kind of GW box?!

Contrary to popular belief, predators are lazy. A predator will go for the easiest prey first, and this would be better for the Tyranids as well. If the Tyranids take out everything else first, the Sol system will be run out of resources and will be surrounded. So, no, Tyranids cannot take on Sol now, but if they do it right, one day they will.

If you consider that the initial Hive Fleets were probably assessing defenses that the Milky Ways races have, and if they realize the importance of Terra, they wouldn't go after it until they've bled the outer systems dry.

Considering they've probably conquered a few galactic civilisations before reaching this galaxy, they'd know attacking the seat of power without stripping its resources away is a prettty silly thing to do.

-Loki- wrote:
Considering they've probably conquered a few galactic civilizations before reaching this galaxy.

Where did you learn that? We only know that they have consumed 1 galaxy ( their original ), where did you hear that they consume few civilizations?


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Platuan4th wrote:
Also, I think you're seriously underestimating the military might of a Tyranid Hive Fleet.

One word: Macragge
Few more: Malan'tai, Iyanden, Idharae, Tau, Black Nebula, Tarsis Ultra....

Brother Coa wrote:

-Loki- wrote:
Considering they've probably conquered a few galactic civilizations before reaching this galaxy.

Where did you learn that? We only know that they have consumed 1 galaxy ( their original ), where did you hear that they consume few civilizations?

Where did you learn that? We know know they don't come from our galaxy.

However, the fluff for the Swarmlord mentions other names it is known by, and there's quite a few. I took is as an obscure reference to other large civilisations destroyed before attacking the Milky Way. It's also why I said probably.

Brother Coa wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Platuan4th wrote:
Also, I think you're seriously underestimating the military might of a Tyranid Hive Fleet.

One word: Macragge
Few more: Malan'tai, Iyanden, Idharae, Tau, Black Nebula, Tarsis Ultra....

One word - small.

According to the 5th edition codex, even Behemoth wasn't an overly large Hive Fleet. It was smaller than Kraken and Leviathan. It was, however, the first Tyranid hive fleet that the Imperium took notice of.

Do you know how much the Imperium lost at Macragge? The Ultramarines lost not only their entire 1st company, but other Marines from other companies. The 1st company was only defending the polar fortresses, it wasn't doing the bulk of the fighting. Then consider the bulk of the Ultima Segmentums Imperial Guard was defending Macragge as well, most of whom perished. Then consider the Ultima Segmentums fleet was severely crippled, so much so that the final battle at Circe required the recruitment of any merchants and rogue traders unlucky enough to be nearby, and they still nearly lost.

Iyanden was nearly completely wiped out. They lost a huge amount of their population as well as their ancestors due to requiring their aid as Wraithguard. Iyanden itself was nearly destroyed, and was only saved by another large Eldar fleet arriving like a good little Deus Ex Machina. Kraken as a whole was actually not defeated either.

Awesome that you list Malan'tai, a craftworld destroyed by a single Tyranid entity. The Tau were lucky in that the Imperium didn't want to fight two opponents, and went into an alliance. If it was just the Tau, hive fleet Gorgon would have rolled right through the Tau empire without breaking a sweat.

The Hive Fleets Kraken and Behemoth were both skin-of-your-teeth victories, won by plot armour and a literal Deus Ex Machina in both cases. One of the flaws with the Tyranid fluff.

-Loki- wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

-Loki- wrote:
Considering they've probably conquered a few galactic civilizations before reaching this galaxy.

Where did you learn that? We only know that they have consumed 1 galaxy ( their original ), where did you hear that they consume few civilizations?

Where did you learn that? We know know they don't come from our galaxy.

However, the fluff for the Swarmlord mentions other names it is known by, and there's quite a few. I took is as an obscure reference to other large civilisations destroyed before attacking the Milky Way. It's also why I said probably.

Brother Coa wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Platuan4th wrote:
Also, I think you're seriously underestimating the military might of a Tyranid Hive Fleet.

One word: Macragge
Few more: Malan'tai, Iyanden, Idharae, Tau, Black Nebula, Tarsis Ultra....

One word - small.

According to the 5th edition codex, even Behemoth wasn't an overly large Hive Fleet. It was smaller than Kraken and Leviathan. It was, however, the first Tyranid hive fleet that the Imperium took notice of.

Do you know how much the Imperium lost at Macragge? The Ultramarines lost not only their entire 1st company, but other Marines from other companies. The 1st company was only defending the polar fortresses, it wasn't doing the bulk of the fighting. Then consider the bulk of the Ultima Segmentums Imperial Guard was defending Macragge as well, most of whom perished. Then consider the Ultima Segmentums fleet was severely crippled, so much so that the final battle at Circe required the recruitment of any merchants and rogue traders unlucky enough to be nearby, and they still nearly lost.

Iyanden was nearly completely wiped out. They lost a huge amount of their population as well as their ancestors due to requiring their aid as Wraithguard. Iyanden itself was nearly destroyed, and was only saved by another large Eldar fleet arriving like a good little Deus Ex Machina. Kraken as a whole was actually not defeated either.

Awesome that you list Malan'tai, a craftworld destroyed by a single Tyranid entity. The Tau were lucky in that the Imperium didn't want to fight two opponents, and went into an alliance. If it was just the Tau, hive fleet Gorgon would have rolled right through the Tau empire without breaking a sweat.

The Hive Fleets Kraken and Behemoth were both skin-of-your-teeth victories, won by plot armour and a literal Deus Ex Machina in both cases. One of the flaws with the Tyranid fluff.

Whatever....the point is: you lost. And the races of the Milky way have recover while you lost your precious biomass.
As for the Leviathan - they will be stopped soon enough.
I have one question dough: what evidence you have ( except Tyranid codex and wild guess ) that there is a LARGE Tyranid fleet coming?
I would say that Leviathan is that fleet and that there is no other Tyranid fleet left except it....

Brother Coa wrote:Whatever....the point is: you lost. And the races of the Milky way have recover while you lost your precious biomass.

Except they didn't 'lose'. They weren't there to destroy Macragge, they weren't there to destroy Iyanden. They were there to feed. While the fleet was beaten back, splinter fleets are still around getting bigger. There's a major hive fleet listed in the 5th edition codex that started as a Kraken splinter fleet.

You don't so much beat Tyranids as exterminate them. Unless exterminated, small populations, even populations stuck on a planet, can consume and regrow a hive ship. And so far, the Imperium has sucked at exterminating them. There's still remnants of Behemoth on Macgragge. The Imperiums most awesomesauce Space Marine chapter can't even exterminate the Tyranids fro it's own homeworld. They only manage to beat them at an engagement and then ignore the threat that is left.

Brother Coa wrote:As for the Leviathan - they will be stopped soon enough.

Yeah, because the Imperium has had such a great success fighting Leviathan. 3-4 Space Marine homeworlds lost, uncounted other worlds they're making fighting retreats on, a major Forgeworld (Gryphonne IV), and managed to lure them into a war that's only making that tendril of Leviathan stronger. Good job there.

Brother Coa wrote:I have one question dough: what evidence you have ( except Tyranid codex and wild guess ) that there is a LARGE Tyranid fleet coming?

The same amount of information that people use to say that the Tyranids are fleeing another race - conjecture in the codex fluff. The current fleets being 'the tip of an iceberg' is referenced through the codices.

Brother Coa wrote:I would say that Leviathan is that fleet and that there is no other Tyranid fleet left except it....

You'd be wrong. More hive fleets have appeared after Leviathan. Read the codex.

-Loki- wrote:
You'd be wrong. More hive fleets have appeared after Leviathan. Read the codex.

Ok, then our codex said that in the end times, the Emepror will resurrect ( star child ) and become a true god ( new entity in the Warp ), Primarchs will return and all enemies of Man ( including GREAT Tyranid fleet ) will be destroyed by the Emperor and his endless legions of Space Marines.
So all non-humans will be in the end.

Brother Coa wrote:

-Loki- wrote:
You'd be wrong. More hive fleets have appeared after Leviathan. Read the codex.

Ok, then our codex said that in the end times, the Emepror will resurrect ( star child ) and become a true god ( new entity in the Warp ), Primarchs will return and all enemies of Man ( including GREAT Tyranid fleet ) will be destroyed by the Emperor and his endless legions of Space Marines.
So all non-humans will be in the end.

No argument from me - I was just correcting you. You said Leviathan would be the last hive fleet. It's not. You don't need to get snarky because you are making statements without reading the fluff.

Well, planets can be put into the Warp, according to Mr Ward, so I guess they would just move Terra into the warp out of the way ...

Oh wait, silly me, Titan was only a moon ... TERRA IS SQROOODDD

-Loki- wrote:
No argument from me - I was just correcting you. You said Leviathan would be the last hive fleet. It's not. You don't need to get snarky because you are making statements without reading the fluff.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tyranids#Hive_Fleets

The last one to enter the galaxy is Hive Fleet Leviathan. No other after her is mentioned, I consider this fluff.

Brother Coa wrote:

-Loki- wrote:
No argument from me - I was just correcting you. You said Leviathan would be the last hive fleet. It's not. You don't need to get snarky because you are making statements without reading the fluff.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tyranids#Hive_Fleets

The last one to enter the galaxy is Hive Fleet Leviathan. No other after her is mentioned, I consider this fluff.

Misunderstanding...

Loki said it would not be the last and it won't.

You are saying it was the last (most recent) to attack and it was, but it won't be the last to attack.

As for the Emperor, in his state of undeath and weakness he would be sucked up into a tube and dissolved into paste for bio-mass. Thinking he is at this point anything more than a pysker veggie is kinda pointless. His strength is old history, Horus beasted on him and left him in a state of nothingness. Any speculation as what would happen if he died in terms of being rezzed, becoming a God, etc etc is purely speculation. Unless someone has a sanctioned piece of fluff to link that supports otherwise.

All we know for sure, is that if he died the IoM would lose reliable warp travel.

Platuan4th wrote:
Read the Tyranid Codex. Not only did the Imperium not know they were coming from above/below before it happened, they never even considered it an option. Space may be 3D, but it's very much not treated that way in the 40K Universe.

I assumed that that was because of the angles of the other Hive Fleets, not because they thought it was actually physically impossible. Now that they realise just how far the Tyranids have travelled, they may also be on more of a look out. Besides, it was also detected long before it reached Terra. That suggests, to me at least, that it can't just sneak up on Terra.

Also, I think you're seriously underestimating the military might of a Tyranid Hive Fleet.

They've been defeated before by vastly inferior forces to the ones defending Sol. It would have to be on a much larger scale than any seen before.

Darth Bob wrote:If any of Kryptman's theories have merit, the size of the main fleet is so big it will require arming every Imperial citizen with a lasgun if they are to even hope to stand a chance.

I've heard of a theory from Conclave that stated that one of the Segmentums would have to increase mobilisation by 500% (effectively placing every man, woman and child under arms). Is this the same one?

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Any speculation as what would happen if he died in terms of being rezzed, becoming a God, etc etc is purely speculation. Unless someone has a sanctioned piece of fluff to link that supports otherwise.

Same goes for your "tip of the iceberg", there is no speculation or proof that there is a "huge Tyranid fleet" that will attack the galaxy. If our codex is not true for the Emperor, then yours is also false when comparing to the great fleet.

The Tyranid Hive Fleets could just be the scouts, the harbingers of a greater menace from another galaxy that will overwhelm the Imperium and every other race in one chittering wave of chitin and jaws and ever-hungering death.

Or, as has been speculated before, they could be the very last remnants of a once huge race, pushed out of their galaxy in one last, desperate gamble to survive, chased and forced to scavenge and sustain themselves as they travel.

The real question then is this: what could they be fleeing from?

They are fleeing from the outsider, terrified that He will infect the hive mind.

woodbok wrote:They are fleeing from the outsider, terrified that He will infect the hive mind.

Run for your lives! But lets grab a snack on the way.

The tyranids may be fleeing or simply moving on to new sources of biomass. Considering the IMMENSE distance between galaxies, and the amount of resources they would have to consume to cross that distance, the hive fleets which are now in the 40k galaxy are actually quite smaller than they originally were. And even if they were to be fleeing from another, mightier race, they would have to have still consumed at least 6-7 different dominant civilizations as per their fluff, their weaponry and organisms are directly derived from what they consume (biovore, ork based, zoanthropes more or less eldar mutations, warriors space marines, etc etc) but then other species already present with behemoth's arrival, such as carnifex, hive tyrants, lictors, termagants, they would have had to have been consumed and mutated/generated from conquered organisms.

As for the size of hive fleets and if any more are coming, there isn't really too much to support another hive fleet on its way, but considering what has already come, it is a likelyhood that more are coming as this galaxy is proving to be more stubborn to consume. And as for size, well, considering every new hive fleet that has arrived after behemoth has doubled in size (not counting the smaller specialized fleets) I would say not only the imperium, but everyone on the eastern fringe is in serious trouble. Even the necrons, a race older than any other in the galaxy(save for possibly tyranids now) is being forced to engage these creatures, an encounter completely counter to their goal since tyranids are soulless, nothing for their gods to consume. There has proved to been only one race actually robust enough to truly WIN a fight against the tyranids, and by win i mean defeat them without losing 90% or more of their defense force, and that race is orks.

Tyranids don't yet have a solid defense against a full fledged waaaaagh! as Orks are a rare breed in that no matter the losses, more orks will be drawn to the fight.

Its possible the entire imperium of man could destroy the current major hivefleet, leviathan, on its own, and I say its possible, not neccessarily an absolute as many things come into play with a hive fleet that makes fighting it difficult, but if the imperium were to do that, they would be overwhelmed by everything else, namely chaos.

The last comment I will make is that fighting the tyranids with a war of attrition is a losing battle, they dont leave worlds to be reconquered, they leave only dead worlds, and therefore nothing left to retake...

Brother Coa wrote:

-Loki- wrote:
No argument from me - I was just correcting you. You said Leviathan would be the last hive fleet. It's not. You don't need to get snarky because you are making statements without reading the fluff.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tyranids#Hive_Fleets

The last one to enter the galaxy is Hive Fleet Leviathan. No other after her is mentioned, I consider this fluff.

If you looked further into it, you'd still find yourself wrong.

Hive Fleet Leviathan - 997.M41

Moloch is a minor Tyranid Hive Fleet plunging through the Ghoul Stars into the galactic north of the Galaxy as of 998.M41

From your precious Lexicanium.

-Loki- wrote:
From your precious Lexicanium.

Are you saying stuff on Lexicanum aren't true?
And I was talking about MAJOR hive fleets. Small ones are not counted for, they could just be small fragments of the large ones that came late.
If we count that there is 6 more Hive Fleets entering the galaxy, all minor fleets.

Sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of you moving the goalposts.

I never said major hive fleets, neither did you. You said no hive fleets have entered the galaxy since Leviathan.

Major hive fleets are big narrative changes, of course none have appeared since Leviathan. There's no need, narratively, since the Imperium is still fighting like buggery trying to fight it back.

The imperium has literally trillions of humans in it, the tyranids scour planets because they only have a few billion on. If they hit Terra and 100 billion IG rocked up, they could wipe the tyranids out if they issued everyone a pocket knife.

And how many space marines would turn up?! Even if every chapter only sent one company each your talking a 100,000 astartes.

And Titan is just down the road, add every GK as well.

And inquisition, assassins, pdf etc etc

The whole point is that the imperium is so big, planets get nommed all the time by all the different races. It's big strength is also its big weakness (vast size)

But if you try to feth with Terra, your doomed!

-Loki- wrote:
I never said major hive fleets, neither did you. You said no hive fleets have entered the galaxy since Leviathan.

Major hive fleets are big narrative changes, of course none have appeared since Leviathan. There's no need, narratively, since the Imperium is still fighting like buggery trying to fight it back.

And that is because I don't consider them a threat. I consider only major Hive Fleets a threat to the Imperium, the lesser ones are dealt with easily ( almost every listed smaller one is destroyed ).

In that case, if we count every Human that can held a weapon on planet Tyranid invasions just became more harder.
And why listing only Humanity? Necrons are even worse foes for Tyranids than Imperium.


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mattyrm wrote:The imperium has literally trillions of humans in it, the tyranids scour planets because they only have a few billion on. If they hit Terra and 100 billion IG rocked up, they could wipe the tyranids out if they issued everyone a pocket knife.

And how many space marines would turn up?! Even if every chapter only sent one company each your talking a 100,000 astartes.

And Titan is just down the road, add every GK as well.

And inquisition, assassins, pdf etc etc

The whole point is that the imperium is so big, planets get nommed all the time by all the different races. It's big strength is also its big weakness (vast size)

But if you try to feth with Terra, your doomed!

They can only dream about Terra, her fleet is so wast that noon ever got to it. Even Necron fleet was destroyed as soon as landed, and that was on Mars.

Jihadnik wrote:Ooo, now that would be sweet...If only I hadn't thrown out all my BFG models years ago...sigh...

Hehehehee I still have mine in mint condition. I never even put the models together.

Terra is pretty much off limits to most.
Chances of bringing it down are pretty damn slim, i mean, 13 failed crusades by 1 person? there would have been a hint along the way.

But, fluff hides too much from plain view.
Hive fleets are never really mentioned in any great deal as to strength or numbers, let along structure.
Things like the domanatrix make a guest appearence in the book, and thats it.
Norn queen? she gets 1 line in the book.
and she is the same to nids and golden toilet boy is to the imperium.

The fact of the matter is, no one knows enough about all of the factors to give a truely accurate answer.




and 40k Lex is hardly fluff, its a fansite, the same as wiki.
Fluff would be from official GW books (as poorly as they may be written)

Jackal wrote:
Fluff would be from official GW books (as poorly as they may be written)

Like DoW Tempest?

Brother Coa wrote:

They can only dream about Terra, her fleet is so wast that noon ever got to it. Even Necron fleet was destroyed as soon as landed, and that was on Mars.

Though it was stated the 5 or so Necron Cruisers were only destroyed at a great cost to the Ad Mech, and Mars is probably the 2nd most heavily defended planet in the galaxy after Terra.

mattyrm wrote:The imperium has literally trillions of humans in it, the tyranids scour planets because they only have a few billion on. If they hit Terra and 100 billion IG rocked up, they could wipe the tyranids out if they issued everyone a pocket knife.

And how many space marines would turn up?! Even if every chapter only sent one company each your talking a 100,000 astartes.

And Titan is just down the road, add every GK as well.

And inquisition, assassins, pdf etc etc

The whole point is that the imperium is so big, planets get nommed all the time by all the different races. It's big strength is also its big weakness (vast size)

But if you try to feth with Terra, your doomed!

Shadow in Warp - No reinforcements, Nids do not need to attack terra. They can just take some of the other planets put a big shadow in the warp around the planet then and Terra will die from over poulation as it has to rely on other plantets to bring it food etc. Nids lose no biomass

Some points of note.

The most recent Tyranid codex weakened them in fluff by making it clear that the fleets and their splinters are extremely hypermetabolic when in a state of war/consuming worlds and that by drawing the fleet into an extended war of attrition or doing what the eldar have been doing and wiping out all life on nearby worlds, they starve themselves into a state of exhaustion and can then be broken and eradicated.

The Star Child lore was introduced in Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned. It has never clearly and totally been refuted, some reference to a star child cult being uncovered as a Tzeentchian cult and being wiped out in the 3rd ed fluff could relate to a tzeentchian cult masquerading as a star child cult, the inquisition wiping out an actual star child cult and claiming it was tzeentchian. What is made clear in the RoC:TL&TD was that the sensei, the children of the Emperor, were scattered to the far ends of the galaxy and that the Star Child was indeed very real and waiting to be born in the warp. Wiping out a cult in some part of the galaxy that may or may not have been working for the Star Child or Tzeentch does not alter the fluff about the Star Child, unless that cult wrote RoC:TL&TD...

Also, drawing lines of absolutes based on Codex fluff is a never ending source of argument as each book is written with a strong bias to the army or faction it describes.

My Ork codex follows the fluff of the previous tyranid codex that the war between ork and tyranid was in a perpetual stalemate. It's highly likely that, due to the last tyranid codex 'upping the anti', that in the next Ork codex, the Orks will be winning that Kryptman gambit...

Just remember that 'at a terrible cost' reads a lot more interesting than 'crushed without breaking a sweat'.

Harriticus wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

They can only dream about Terra, her fleet is so wast that noon ever got to it. Even Necron fleet was destroyed as soon as landed, and that was on Mars.

Though it was stated the 5 or so Necron Cruisers were only destroyed at a great cost to the Ad Mech, and Mars is probably the 2nd most heavily defended planet in the galaxy after Terra.

the Ad mech didn't take huge losses.

only a couple made it the surface and was promptly vaporized by 2 titan legions.