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I speak American

loner wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:

loner wrote:Just wondering but what counts as Native-English?
If your parents are English or if you were born in England?

I would imagine that it would be if your parents spoke fluent English to you as a child and English was your first language.

In that case, no...
My parents forced me to watch English movies with English subtitles and spoke regularly English with me.
I started reading English around when I was 10 years old...

I still (hope) think that people understand most of what I say...

You're very readable. Perhaps a little too fond of ellipses... The only other error I see above is putting "regularly" after "spoke" instead of before.

Nitpicking of otherwise-excellent English aside, Silver's guess is correct. IME one is said to be a "native" speaker of a language if one grew up speaking it, in a culture/environment which used it constantly on a day to day basis. Most of us only have one "native" language, as most places use one language more than they do other languages. Though you obviously grew up making regular use of English too. It's definitely something I'm jealous of, as an American.

LunaHound wrote:

Do you feel you get most of the posts? Yep!

Do people understand your posts? NOPE!

What, Luna? I'm not sure what you're saying...



King Ghidorah

Joke about Ghidorah's signature.

loner wrote:Isn't it also because the majority of the Dutch people are well educated? Our geography teacher said it was something like that.

Well you wouldn't say that when looking at the average dutchman's grasp of french or german.

I am doing fine. I also think I am quite well understood most of the time.

In relation to the below-linked thread, would any of the folks whose primary language is not English care to share their thoughts?

Does it help make the forum more readable and pleasant for you if people use proper grammar, punctuation, spelling and capitalization?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/360893.page

(Please share your thoughts here, of course, as that other thread is locked).

@Mannahnin

Do non-native English speakers get leniency in this case or is it a "warn em when we see em?" kinda deal?

I'm sure I've put out some atrocities out there myself but I haven't been warned... but then again no one really pays attention to me

But on a whole I like the policy. But I wouldn't appreciate a draconian application of it.

@Mannahnin- I think the proper grammar and punctuation keeps the board from slipping into the text/leetspeek hell that is the boards in most of the rest of the internets.
Proper use helps readability for myself, and I am a single language speaker.

Also, in the closed thread you mis-spelled grammar

I think the emphasis on proper english grammar encourages people to spend a little more thought on their posts.

If the texts I receive from my friends are any indication, people are lazy or just bad at using proper english, even when it is their only language.

I have read a lot of english in my time, so I understand 99% of the posts that I read here on Dakka. What only really throw me off once out of a hundred posts is when the post I read suffer from a complete lack of punctuation; that I just cannot tolerate. I'm not a master of the comma myself, but that is mostly because we follow a strict rule in danish that dictates when to use comma which differs a lot from english, where you apparently just put them where and when you feel like it.

I also get quite a lot of replies on most of my threads here on Dakka, so I automatically assume that people clearly can understand what I write

TiB wrote:An advantage to the Netherlands being such a tiny language area is that a majority of the films and television we see, music we listen to and books we read are in english. For a lot of media it just doesn't pay to translate and dub everything like it would have been in larger countries like Germany or France.

English has become so ingrained in our culture that english doesn't even really count as a second language anymore for things like getting a job.
to-be employee: "Oh, and I can speak and write english fluently."
employer: "Cool story bro"

It's why I kind of pity native english speakers, they have as their mother tongue what many people in other countries basically learn for free as a second language.

Exactly my experience as well. I have never really worked hard in an english class, but I still got top grades at my final exam in oral english. I guess that I can thank hobbies like Warhammer, D&D, reading and PC MMO's like EvE online and Battleground Europe (and even Runescape!) for honing my english skills at an early age. If you have a great interest in something, you will go to greater lengths to discover the full potential of it, which as a bonus improved my english quite a bit. I'm going to study Internatonal Management at Aarhus University in a few months, so I guess that I'll just get even better.

Erasoketa wrote:Another thing I've noted is that my own nickname might be too long for most of people. It's not English nor even Spanish, it's a basque word for "raid".

That's fantastic; I love it! (Basque is one of the languages that I find very interesting, as it doesn't really have Indo-European roots or seem to be related to any other language).

As a moderator who gets fed up easily with poorly-written or formatted posts, I have noticed that the non-native speakers tend not to be a problem at all. It's easy to tell the difference between someone who isn't totally familiar with English and someone who isn't putting any effort into their post.

I have to say that, in relation to the other thread...I was kinda annoyed by the OP. I'm annoyed slightly by anyone who tries to say that grammar is unimportant. As everyone knows, grammar is the difference betweeen, "Let's eat, Grandma!" and "Lets eat Grandma!" or "I helped my Uncle Jack off a horse," and "I helped my uncle jack off a horse."

The people that bug me the most are those who seem to think that they have no responsibility to use proper grammar, and that anyone who complains about their mangling of the English language is a ridiculous grammar Nazi. I personally think there's a difference between being a grammar Nazi and demanding reasonable grammar. A grammar Nazi is someone who berates a person for minor typos, missing an unimportant comma or two, or mixing up words like 'may' and 'can' in a way that still leaves their post easy to understand. If your post has gotten to the point that someone has to reread it two or three times to understand what's being said, or you have repeatedly made basic grammar and spelling mistakes, then I feel no guilt or shame in calling you out on it.

Aside from a good education it certainly did help that our primary school had an English expat department, I befriended two South Africans and a Texan, though I sincerely doubt that claim now that I've seen real Texans. Also, Dutch morning TV of aeons ago was in English with subs, none of that dubbed gak, oh no, G.I. Joe, Transformers, Ninja Turtles and so on, all subbed, not raped by poor local voice acting. Bliss.

TiB wrote:

loner wrote:Isn't it also because the majority of the Dutch people are well educated? Our geography teacher said it was something like that.

Well you wouldn't say that when looking at the average dutchman's grasp of french or german.

But they weren't the big winners of the last big war, so why bother?

My grammar is just plain horrible, but I do my best and anyone who is going to get on my case about it have two options 1. Come over and provide free tutorials 2.(space reserved for mods saves time this way)

ChrisWWII wrote:The biggest problems I have are with people who speak english natively, but their posts read like their a monkey dancing on the keyboard.

I've never seen really bad posts on here, but recently I got into a little fight on another board (not TT related but car related). There was some internet-tough guy from California who "jus wrote like this, ya know". He couldn't be bothered to use the shift key at all. He told me that since the board was American and he wasn't in school anymore, he had every right to write the way he wants.

Someone said that some of us non native English speakers tend to use better wording and phrasing. I think that this is sometimes due to using translators. Not for complete sentences but for specific words. That way, we sometimes come up with very uncommon words - which makes us look very educated.

TiB wrote:

loner wrote:Isn't it also because the majority of the Dutch people are well educated? Our geography teacher said it was something like that.

Well you wouldn't say that when looking at the average dutchman's grasp of french or german.

Well, everytime I'm in the Netherlands I get the feeling that everyone understands me just fine. We also like your accent when you try to speak German. Specially if you're blond and female ...

Mannahnin wrote:In relation to the below-linked thread, would any of the folks whose primary language is not English care to share their thoughts?

Does it help make the forum more readable and pleasant for you if people use proper grammar, punctuation, spelling and capitalization?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/360893.page

(Please share your thoughts here, of course, as that other thread is locked).

I understand better if things are posted as readable as possible. On that thread some posts of the OP I had to read a couple times and eventually ended up by moving elsewere. I think it's a question of respect, respecting the language, the forum, the people reading your posts etc... But I believe it's a lost case there since we foreigners are labeled by the OP as small brained.

I'm working on a digital distribution project trial in Belgium.

The materials (text and video) can be made available in most European languages. At first they asked for English and Dutch. I assumed this was a mistake and provided them in English, French and Dutch. (It's always useful for UK based staff to have an English reference.)

The Belgian manager told me not to bother with French. I said I've got no problem with providing French, we can do it as easily as English with our system.

But he more or less said, "Screw French, we don't need it. Local users would rather have English as an alternative."

Apparently all the trial outlets are in the Flemish area. I'm a bit surprised that the Belgian schools don't cross-teach French to Flemish people, and Dutch to Walloons, but there it is. They probably all get taught English as a second language.

doubleT wrote:
I've never seen really bad posts on here, but recently I got into a little fight on another board (not TT related but car related). There was some internet-tough guy from California who "jus wrote like this, ya know". He couldn't be bothered to use the shift key at all. He told me that since the board was American and he wasn't in school anymore, he had every right to write the way he wants.

These following posts is probably the worst examples of spelling and grammar I've seen on the forum.

NAME REDACTED BY ORDER OF THE INQUISITION wrote:guys peasce can we stop all of this bikkering and acherly start to discous stuff snd questions about titians.I will start one of with,does any boady have masurements for the reaver and warhound?and what would be better an group of 20 warhounds and 10 reavers or 4 emoror class titains?

NAME REDACTED BY ORDER OF THE INQUISITION wrote: Acherly I dient know that Titain was spelt wong and word must not have correct spelling.I do try with my garmmer and I know im bad at it that is because I find grammer really hard to get right.I did chek over it manny tmes.Now plese can you applogise because I find this quite offensive and I will to change my oringal post to the best of my aobbletely.

Repeated attempts to ask CENSORED to fix his grammar and spelling were met with the standard protests of not being good at grammar and spelling, as if that was a good enough excuse for the atrocious murder of the English language listed above. It doesn't take a lot of work to do spelling and basic grammar right, I think it's easily within reach of ANYONE who speaks English fluently.

doubleT wrote:Well, everytime I'm in the Netherlands I get the feeling that everyone understands me just fine. We also like your accent when you try to speak German. Specially if you're blond and female ...

As we often tell the German tourists in our store "Wir verstehen sie, aber unserer sprach ist nicht so gut", pardon the poor spelling there. But with a little jostling and trying to describe what we're talking about you can get a long way in helping each other out. I do notice that a lot of German tourists have picked up English though, along with good clear pronunciation.

Thing is though, there really isn't much excuse for it in this day and age. For the lazy, you can get browser plug-ins for FireFox and Chrome that have spelling checkers built in (as I am typing this in the Quick Reply box I get the red squiggly marks under the misspelt words).

Failing that, you can always type your forum replies/threads into MS Word or something similar, check the spelling and then copy/paste. Hell, you can even use MS Word online for free if it comes to it.

I really don't have much truck with people not bothering to spell properly. Obviously, non-English speakers are a different matter but actually, I have found non-English speakers to be the best at spelling, punctuation and grammar in some cases, probably because they have been taught properly in a structured environment and in a decent education system!

You need spell checkers plug in? I though Firefox check your spelling automatically, at least that is how it have been with mine.
I for one doesn't care much about other people grammar as long as the post is easily understood, It is when I have to play "replace the word with the correct one" that i begin to get lazy in reading the posts, and will at a certain point begin to rage.

Examples of such can be seen with the one that ChrisWWII have quoted...

ChrisWWII wrote:
This is probably the worst examples of spelling and grammar I've seen on the forum.

At first I thought you ment my post. Your examples are creepy.

BrookM wrote:

doubleT wrote:Well, everytime I'm in the Netherlands I get the feeling that everyone understands me just fine. We also like your accent when you try to speak German. Specially if you're blond and female ...

As we often tell the German tourists in our store "Wir verstehen sie, aber unserer sprach ist nicht so gut", pardon the poor spelling there. But with a little jostling and trying to describe what we're talking about you can get a long way in helping each other out. I do notice that a lot of German tourists have picked up English though, along with good clear pronunciation.

I guess, those that visit other countries are willing to learn / speak other languages. And I think it's the same with the internet: Those that visit non native language boards / websites are determined to learn / test / use their 2nd language skills.
btw. I can usually read Dutch text without problems - but I couldn't speak your language without heavily abusing it. That's why I stick to English, too. Unless there's a nice girl (with a nice soft voice) willing to speak German - with her cute accent.

Retrias wrote:You need spell checkers plug in? I though Firefox check your spelling automatically, at least that is how it have been with mine.
I for one doesn't care much about other people grammar as long as the post is easily understood, It is when I have to play "replace the word with the correct one" that i begin to get lazy in reading the posts, and will at a certain point begin to rage.

Examples of such can be seen with the one that ChrisWWII have quoted...

AFAIK the spell checker is a plug in (its a dictionary plug in) but I think it comes bundled with FF anyway so you don't need to explicitly install it.

Actually, one of the reasons I chose to go to this forum rather then any other was the use of language.

In other forums, you get your point across, and you're good. There's no need to use contractions, commas or any of the interesting nick-nack grammatical tools [dashes, colons, semi colons, the ellipse].

Hey, It's not facebook. sometimes people are lazy with their language, and that's like the gamer who doesn't wash 'cause they're lazy.

ChrisWWII wrote:As everyone knows, grammar is the difference betweeen, "Let's eat Grandma!" and "Lets eat Grandma!" or "I helped my Uncle Jack off a horse," and "I helped my uncle jack off a horse."

First of all, I whole-heartedly agree with you. I abhor the way people spell on message boards, in games, or anywhere else a person types to communicate. I have a friend who is an English teacher and they have told me horror stories about papers being turned in with atrocities like, 'b4' and 'u'.


However, my conscience will not allow me to pass up this post without mentioning that, in your examples of poor grammar, you failed in making your point. In your examples, you left out the all-important commas. They are the ingredient that change the entire meaning of your sentences.

"Let's eat, Grandma!" and "Let's eat Grandma!" and, "I helped my uncle, Jack, off a horse." or "I helped my uncle Jack off a horse."





Spelling and grammar issues, sentence structure, etc. is easy to overlook when English is not a native language. The fact that a non-English speaking person is attempting is awesome. I can only image what it would read like if I were to try typing in Russian or Polish, for example. Where I take issues are the lazy, selfish, self-centered youth that can't be bothered.




King Ghidorah

I don't know about the USA. Many English schools seem to have stopped teaching grammar about 40 years ago, with the result that even intelligent children have grown to adulthood with no formal training in principles of grammar.

This is a serious disadvantage when learning foreign languages in later life, since all proper instruction is based on grammatical principles. People who don't know what an adverb or a subjective is, are at a loss when their French/Russian/Japanese teacher introduces the topic.

Learning languages by everyday conversation has its perils.

Ghidorah wrote:
However, my conscience will not allow me to pass up this post without mentioning that, in your examples of poor grammar, you failed in making your point. In your examples, you left out the all-important commas. They are the ingredient that change the entire meaning of your sentences.

"Let's eat, Grandma!" and "Let's eat Grandma!" and, "I helped my uncle, Jack, off a horse." or "I helped my uncle Jack off a horse."

Ya got me on my first exampel and I take my hat off to you, good sir! However, the second example was more an example of the usefullness of capitalization in a purely written setting, and I believe it does serve its purpouse even without the commas.

ChrisWWII wrote:usefullness of capitalization in a purely written setting, and I believe it does serve its purpouse even without the commas.

Duly noted, and yes, it does.



King Ghidorah

Kilkrazy wrote:I don't know about the USA. Many English schools seem to have stopped teaching grammar about 40 years ago, with the result that even intelligent children have grown to adulthood with no formal training in principles of grammar.

This is a serious disadvantage when learning foreign languages in later life, since all proper instruction is based on grammatical principles. People who don't know what an adverb or a subjective is, are at a loss when their French/Russian/Japanese teacher introduces the topic.

Learning languages by everyday conversation has its perils.

I'm not too sure about not teaching grammar in primary schools, I transferred to an English primary school from a junior school in Japan and in both times when English was being taught things like grammar and handwriting came up (although handwriting was oddly the emphasis in both cases).

Also I do distinctly remember finding a difficult time understanding the concept of an Onomatopoeia (think I have the spelling correct) especially when the best I could do was speak scattered English! So trying to understand the teacher making bang, and woof woof noises was really weird.

It depends partly on the school.

Things change with time, too. There has certainly been a re-emphasis on literacy and phonics, etc. in the past 15 years, based on a perception that children weren't learning to read and write properly.

Strange that handwriting was emphasised. There isn't any regulation system of hand writing in English education.