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The Deff Dread works when a big mek makes it a troop, as it's a dirt cheap combat monster.

The techpriest I'm willing to look the other way on, as it was clearly, even in 3rd edition, a chance to add a cool new model to the range, and to give IG the same thing Marines, Orks, (and previously chaos) had: a mechanic.

I still think it wouldn't be hard to make it not totally suck, but it was always a side show, and never a serious unit. (I'd go with WS4, BS4, 2W, 2A, 3+/5++, power weapon, to allow some CC punch to some units)

Revenent Reiko wrote:
Wave Serpents and Fire Prisms? (not sure on FPs ill admit) Wave Serpents are the best transport you have and easily outclass some other transports (speed wise if nothing else)

Wave Serpents - Triple the cost of a Rhino for that. One tiny door in the back. No one can shoot out. For a cost benefit analysis, it is the worst transport in the game.

Fire Prism - One gun. Most non-transports in its price range have 3 or more.

C:CSM;
Chaos Spawn - Why? Just... why?
Chaos Lords*
Chaos Sorcerers*
*Why would you want a Lord if not for DWs or over-priced TL LCs that can be killed by the nearest powerfist sergeant, and why a Sorcerer if not simply for being able to be put in a transport?)
Chaos Terminators - Power Weapons and Ld10 but no Fearless and little in the way of added protection? MoN means sod all vs the plasma you'll be getting in the face and MoT is quite expensive for an invul save that is still worse than the TH/SS loyalists.
Chaos Dreadnoughts - Crazed. That is all.
Possessed - Overpriced marines with S5 and a random special ability that it's doubtful you'll ever get to use to any great effect.
Noise Marines - 5pts more for Fearless Ld10 and +1I... amazing... give us Sonic Blasters as standard and you've got a deal.
Rubrics - Thanks for the AP3 bolters, shame about all the cover saves people will get against them.
Bikers - "We could use our toughness to-" "Got Plague Marines." "Fine, we can deliver meltagu-" "Got chosen and raptors." "We can do Close co-" "Got berzerkers." "I'll be in my room..."
Predators - "Long ranged firepow-" "Got Obliterators." "I'll be with the bikers..."
Special Characters - "It's okay, Khârn and Abaddon are here and have the situation under control; the rest of you can go home."

I'll do Tau and Eldar after i've finished raging...

DarknessEternal wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:
Wave Serpents and Fire Prisms? (not sure on FPs ill admit) Wave Serpents are the best transport you have and easily outclass some other transports (speed wise if nothing else)

Wave Serpents - Triple the cost of a Rhino for that. One tiny door in the back. No one can shoot out. For a cost benefit analysis, it is the worst transport in the game.

Fire Prism - One gun. Most non-transports in its price range have 3 or more.

Hmmm didnt realise they were so expensive, ive always just seen their maneuverability and said 'yes please!'
i did admit i wasnt sure on the Fire Prism, but maneuverability + 2 firing modes doesnt seem too bad.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:
Wave Serpents and Fire Prisms? (not sure on FPs ill admit) Wave Serpents are the best transport you have and easily outclass some other transports (speed wise if nothing else)

Wave Serpents - Triple the cost of a Rhino for that. One tiny door in the back. No one can shoot out. For a cost benefit analysis, it is the worst transport in the game.

Fire Prism - One gun. Most non-transports in its price range have 3 or more.

WS are not THAT bad. They are on the weaker side (thx stupid skimmer rules and all Eldar pricing), but they are not the worse transport. That goes to Tau fishes I think.

FP indeed suffer from this. It can be used successfully however. And nothing can 100% overshadow it currently.
The bad thing is that so many thing in Eldar codex are crap that even the somewhat bad units are often considered good because there is nothing better available.

WS cost 100pts at the cheapest, and come with 12/12/10 as opposed to Rhino's 11/11/10, plus the WS also has the Energy Field rule, meaning that ranged weapons fired against its forward and side arcs cap at S8; ranged weapons will also only ever get one D6 for penetration, and it goes on to say that melta weapons at half range and ordanance are included in this.

The WS also has 2 more slots of transport capacity, is a fast skimmer and a tank.

The WS is so different from the Rhino that they're almost incomparable.

Lictors and Trygons. Their 'synergy with other units in reserve' ability can only be used if they themselves have arrived from reserve. That's just silly. Yeah, Trygons are powerful, but one of their big fluff things is thrown out the window by not working 3/4 of the time.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Nerivant wrote:Tau: Vespids and Sniper Drones.

Sniper Drones can at least be taken three teams to a slot, but they're not worth the points, and they're competing with XV88's and Hammerheads.

Vespid... what do Vespid have going for them, anyway?

I'd say Sniper Teams are faaar better for Tau than Vespid.

One team gets you a BS4 Markerlight and 3 Rail Rifles that pin. Plus they are a stealth unit...

Vespid are fail, in every single way possible the Vespid fail at life. Which sucks because I love the concept of them. I dare say they rank top 5 as worst unit in the game. An assualt weapon unit with 12 inch range, terrible saves, horrible stock leadership, garbage statline, horrible fast attack option, can't CC for crap, god... so bad.

The only things I don't like about Sniper Drones are the cost (80 pts for 3 Rail Rifles) and they're competing with Broadsides and their TL Railguns at a comparable price. They're just never worth giving up XV88s or Hammerheads.

The Waveserpent was good to great in 4th edition, when it was designed. Eldar and Tau didn't age well with the transition to 5th, so calling out things like Waveserpents as poorly designed in the current environemnt isn't really appropriate.

OTOH, things like Swooping Hawks were still bad, even in 4th.

Tyranids- Pyrovores. Sure, it gives Nid's a teplate weapon, but its really not worth taking up an elite slot for one "Flamer" that gets killed pretty qickly, ususally without doing damage at all. Overall an awful unit.

I'll write my armies, and every useless unit

CSM-
Possessed(hurr, these guys have another attack, and get a random effect)
Bikes (33 points for another toughness and 12 inches. Raptors with MON do the same job better)
spawn (obvious)
predators (No point. Too expensive. I suppose you could take one instead of obliterators though.)
Lesser daemons (no marks, otherwise would be good)
Greater Daemon (foot slogs, no mark)
Thousand Sons (65 points, with no magic? Are you kidding? Why is every marine the price of a plague marine? Certainly not because of AP3...)
Noise Marines (I5 and great guns? Make up your mind. Also, the BM is 40 points on a vastly overprices unit for what reason?)

DE-
Bloodbrides (outclassed by incubi, and FOCd by Trueborn every time)
Grotesques (Just bad, although I do see some use for them in the future. Depends on the model, really)
reavers (worthless. Nothing more than an annoyance unit. Hellions are better, especially with sathonix)
Scourges (replaced easily by Trueborn. No point in using them)
Voidraven (too expensive, doesn't come with missiles standard. Some might disagree, but I've had nothing but bad luck with them)

Snipers in General. I assume they used to be useful at some point? I haven't been playing that long so i could be way off.

Conscripts. A guardsman is 5 points. Minus a BS and WS and two LD? That's totally a one point deduction in cost. They'd be great if they were 3pts a piece. As is, they're kinda not worth it.

Punisher Gatling Cannon. THIS COULD HAVE BEEN AWESOME. How you ask? 36" range, 175 points. BAM. Freakin' sweet now.

snipers were never awsome.

they are good at popping Monsterous creatures with having rending and always wounding on a 4+


the one sniper unit that is good are Eldar Rangers(with the Pathfinder upgrade) as they have sooo many chances to be good(rend on 5+, Ap1 on a 6 to hit)

Though I love the army about half the dark eldar. Really have to choose fun or good when you pick your units/wargear.

Marneus Calgar.

you kidding?

auto-passing or failing ANY morale or pinning test? thats pretty powerful

Calgar's got some good rules and is underrated.

just like Abbaddon.


they often don't get used for psycological resons. oooo you're using papa smurf" "ooo, you're using Failbaddon"

Wave Serpent is a main battle tank, not really a transport, if you keep it moving it'll outclass the Falcon both on durability and offensive capacity.

Swooping Hawks have never been good, not even in 3rd edition where they came down on a large blast marker rather than a small one. Their models are also a pain in the rear armour to keep whole.

CSM's have a lot

Spawn, Possessed, Dreads, Predators, Noise Marines, Chaos Lords, Bikers, etc.

With IG, despite being a rather strong army, there's also a lot of putzed stuff, most obviously the horrifically overpriced and awkwardly geared Stormtroopers, Sentinels, Ogryn, Deathstrike, Bassys, Lord Commissars, Vanquishers, Eradicators, Punishers, Rough Riders, Penal Legion, Vets (aside from relatively barebones vets in either chimeras or Valks, they aren't that good, their options are hideously expensive), Hellhounds and derivatives (30-40pts too expensive), Yarrick, Harker, Bastonne, etc.

Stormtroopers are a unit that particularly irks me. GW has never gotten them really right. "Stormtroopers" in the classic sense are elite assault infantry tasked with siezing a particular objective, armed with lots of grenades, SMG's, flamethrowers and the like. They are mobile, fast, and intended for assault roles. GW's stormtroopers really have generally just been "Guardsmen +1". The current incarnation gives them AP3 guns, but this means they can trade marines blow for blow in a shooting war, and only at 18" or less, and they still suck majorly in CC. It's like they were intended to be MEQ hunters, but given too much gear and special rules and ridiculous weapon restrictions for that "all powerful" AP3 (on S3 guns...). If their guns were Assault 2, they were Ld8/9 instead of 7/8, and got WS4 and Furious Charge, and they were 70pts for 5, 130pts for 10, they'd be worth their cost and fit their role and archetype much, much better.

Flash gitz have been covered, but there are a few more units in C:O that deserve mention.

Tankbustaz - lotsa rokkitz, but woefully easy to exploit and divert from your preferred target.

Looted Wagon (non-boomgun) - An open-topped Rhino? and all I have to give up is a Heavy Support slot per vehicle? Oh boy!

Weirdboy - hilarious, but high randomness plus competing against Warbosses and Big Meks for the smallest FOC slot means these guys don't see the table too often.

Warbuggy - Not utterly horrible, but they are the same cost/role as Deffkoptaz with worse survivability and maneuverability.

Scouts in BA, Imean with assualt marines, tactical marines adn both death company options why even include them?
Sanguinary guard and C:SM Honour guard suffer from a lack of Inv saves

Ork Stormboyz, sure they have jump packs but they lose the Waagh! rule for no apparent reason.

Stormravens generally strike me as awful, if you give it Hurricane Bolters for +20pts you could just have a Land raider Crusader (Same weaponary is AV14 all round instead of 12-12-10)

Chaos Elites slot (Except possibly termies)

Necron Paraihs 36pts per model for something without WBB, no thank you

IG:
Conscripts, RR, Psyker battle squads, Ogryns, Penal Legionaires, the Leman Russ with the autocannon turret, Deathstrike, Griffons, Hellhound +friends, Engiseers, Priests

Vaktathi wrote:Sentinels, Ogryn, Bassys, Lord Commissars, Vanquishers, Vets, Hellhounds and derivatives

A quadrillion times no.

Sentinels are epic and awesome. Ogryns, while a bit clumsy to use, are still excellent assault units. Basilisks are spammable and powerful, Lord Commissars are an excellent choice for a Veterans based army, Hellhounds offer great tactical options, etc. And vets... what. No. HELL no are veterans bad.

I like Warbuggies. Cheap, fast twin-linked rockets (almost as good as actually having ballistic skill).

Weirdboy - too random. Warphead - still too random... pretty much useless (even though I do still use them) - maybe if games were 12 turns long they would eventually have an impact!!

Looted wagons are the biggest disappointment to me. I am kind of a tread-head and I think Orks should be better at looting other folk's armor - that is what they DO. The vehicles in Imperial Armor 8 are what Ork vehicles SHOULD be (look up the Big Trakk, Gun Trucks, Grot Tanks, Mekboy Junka Wagon (a souped-up tow truck) Warcoptas..) That's what we need!!

Oh yeah, Flash Gits. (Strangely enough they kind of work with a Warphead...)

For SM:
Scouts and LSS-If you could take the LSS as a dedicated transport i would be happy, as it is i'm not so happy.
Whirldwind-It's not completly useless but it could do with a little bit more of a boost...

Melissia wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Sentinels, Ogryn, Bassys, Lord Commissars, Vanquishers, Vets, Hellhounds and derivatives

A quadrillion times no.

Sentinels are epic and awesome. Ogryns, while a bit clumsy to use, are still excellent assault units. Basilisks are spammable and powerful, Lord Commissars are an excellent choice for a Veterans based army, Hellhounds offer great tactical options, etc. And vets... what. No. HELL no are veterans bad.

Sentinels are probably one of the worst units in the game in terms of firepower per points spent and easily killed. They just don't generate sufficient firepower with a single BS3 weapon to really justify their points. Armored sentinels can serve as assault tarpits but thats about it, and are also horrifically overpriced as shooting platforms. Ogryns will generally get outfought by just about any half-CC oriented unit (read: stuff like basic barebones CSM's) on a point for point basis, and need a babysitter Commissar (who's relativley easily destroyed once they actually get stuck in) to keep from being broken and forced to fall back. Vanquishers are one of the worst tank hunters in the game for their points. Bassys suffer from a ridiculous minimum range for indirect fire that makes them largely ineffective in normal games (unless exposing themselves to direct fire...in which case, take a Medusa) and mostly pointless next to the other arty units outside of Apocalypse. What on earth do Lord Commissar's do for a Vet army? Hellhounds don't do anything that the HS options, Troops, or other FA won't do better and/or cheaper. Comapre a Hellhound to something like a Baal pred and you'll see what I'm talking about.

You'll notice very few IG lists take many, or more typically, any, of the units listed above. You may see Armored sentinels

When I mentioned vets, I did in fact providede explanation. Unless you're just taking them with 3 meltas or plasmas and little else in a chimera or valk (in which case they are great units), they aren't really very good. Footslogging? Hardly, too easy to engage outside of their threat radius and break from afar or weather their likely singular shooting phase before something closes sufficiently to wipe them out. Their doctrines? *maybe* demolitions for Valk mounted ones, aside from that horrifically overpriced. Harker? Bastonne? Both are pants. Again, there's a reason you never see Vets except in their singular "triple melta/plas chimera/valk" incarnation.

Cerebrium wrote:Surprised no-one has mentioned Ogryns yet, or Rough Riders.

ogryns are quite usefull. pair them up with yarrick and look for a fight to get into, or, get into a chimera and go look for a fight. however, you are partialy right, this guy is useless (and he is an ogryn) Nork deddog. not only a upgrade with alot of points, he is nothing more than a body guard.

for bloodangles, techmarines. no thunderfire cannanon and takes up a HQ spot, and there are so many better HQ slots.

So vets, being quite possibly the best troops choice in the game currently, are "bad" because they don't fit into footslogging lists?


Hellhounds, Basilisks and even Stormtroopers are not bad, in any meaning of the word. The Hellhound, as opposed to the Baal pred, has range on it's side, letting it be waaaay more sneaky while still doing the job it's designed for. As for Stormtroopers, I find it hilarious that they're somehow "bad" when CSM termicide, which is more expensive and doesn't get to fire melta more than once, is somehow the most amazing thing ever.

As for Basilisks, running them in pairs so they can cover each other's blind spots works decently enough IMO. Just because they don't fit into a mainstream list doesn't mean they're bad at all.

JamesMclaren123 wrote:Psyker battle squad nuff said

What drugs are you on, and where can i find some?

Really man, PBS is one of the best units in the entire codex, i never make a list without them, granted, they need the protection of a Chimera, but they can drop strength 9 large blast templates, and reduce an enemies LD to 2, throw enough cassualties/ratlings pinning in there, and boom, your running squads of terminators, fire warriors, marines, and all other terrors to your guard right off the table!

iproxtaco wrote:

ivangterrace wrote:GK terminators.

The fluff says that more terminators are fielded than power armor marines but when the terminators have crappy invul saves, I would rather take power armor marines because I can get more firepower out of them and they are way cheaper so they are easier to fit in my lists.

The most terminators I find I can fit in my lists are around the 20 model mark, but I usually have 30ish power armor marines so it still doesn't quite follow the book.

Not that I'm saying the terminators are bad really, I just find more use out of the power armor grey knights than the TDA ones.

I don't think you're playing GK well then. Terminators with a 4+ invul save that can be taken as troops? Yes please. More firepower? In what way? Terminators can take heavy weapons and keep their assault capability. Power Armoured ones cannot.

Termis only get 4+ invul in combat, otherwise they get the standard 5+.

More firepower?

230 points for a bog standard terminator squad with four stormbolters and a psycannon, which they get to fire as the heavy version so they get four shots and can move. So 8 stormbolter shots and 4 psycannon shots, okay.

For the same amount of points I can buy two 5 man strike squads and arm them with a psycannon in each but they only get the assault 2 if they want to move. 8 SB shots + 8 SB shots = 16 shots and 2 PC shots + 2 PC shots = 4 shots.

Granted, they die easier but I can have more scoring units on the board and I don't have to worry about losing a squad to a dedicated CC unit, unlike the terminators, which are a hefty investment and get punked by dedicated close combat dudes.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:So vets, being quite possibly the best troops choice in the game currently, are "bad" because they don't fit into footslogging lists?

I'm saying they are "bad" unless used one specific, if widespread, way, yes. Is that inaccurate or wrong? Most of their weapon options are pointless, their "doctrine" upgrades for the most part are awful, and they mandate a transport to work. So yes, if they're packing PG's or Meltas in a chimera or Valk, they're amazing units. Otherwise, not anywhere close.

Hellhounds, Basilisks and even Stormtroopers are not bad, in any meaning of the word. The Hellhound, as opposed to the Baal pred, has range on it's side, letting it be waaaay more sneaky while still doing the job it's designed for.

Except it can't Scout or outflank, can't take as many guns, has lower BS for its secondary weapon (and primary weapn for Devil Dog scatter), and lower frontal armor,and the hellhound is only 10pts less after kit assuming sponsons on the Baal? And doesn't come with smoke launchers. Let's not forget the Baal pred also can take an Assault cannon if it chooses.

As for Stormtroopers, I find it hilarious that they're somehow "bad" when CSM termicide, which is more expensive and doesn't get to fire melta more than once, is somehow the most amazing thing ever.

The problem is that's all they're good at. minimum sized squads with a couple meltaguns for suicide duty. If you actually want to run Stormtroopers for anything other than that, they're awful. If they get to fire their meltaguns more than once, your opponent got lazy.

As for Basilisks, running them in pairs so they can cover each other's blind spots works decently enough IMO. Just because they don't fit into a mainstream list doesn't mean they're bad at all.

At that point why not just fork over the 25pts each for LRBT's to do the same job with more durability and less fiddlyness? Or the other, more useful arty options?

DarknessEternal wrote:Phoenix Lords - all of them
Wraithguard
Howling Banshees
Striking Scorpions
Storm Guardians
Rangers and Pathfinders
Vypers
Shining Spears
Swooping Hawks
Dark Reapers
Support Platforms
Fire Prisms
Falcons
Wave Serpents

You think that guardians, guardian jetbikes and wraithlords are good? You think that fire dragons without transports are good?