Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:And don't even get me started that they are the only terminators without dedicated transport options...

I won't, because Grey Knight Terminators don't get Dedicated Transports either.

Avatar 720 wrote:WS cost 100pts at the cheapest, and come with 12/12/10 as opposed to Rhino's 11/11/10, plus the WS also has the Energy Field rule, meaning that ranged weapons fired against its forward and side arcs cap at S8; ranged weapons will also only ever get one D6 for penetration, and it goes on to say that melta weapons at half range and ordanance are included in this.

The WS also has 2 more slots of transport capacity, is a fast skimmer and a tank.

The WS is so different from the Rhino that they're almost incomparable.

My WS never seem to last past turn 2. They either get slagged by multiple long range shots or get deepstriked by units with a melta. The last one got hit with a melta 4" away, guy hits then rolls a 4 for a pen. Then rolls a 6 on the dmg chart.

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
Ork Stormboyz, sure they have jump packs but they lose the Waagh! rule for no apparent reason.

You do realize that they do not need the Waaagh! rule, it's just that GW's poor wording makes it seem worse

Read the rules:
every time a stormboyz mob uses its rokkit packs, roll a D6, if it's a 1, lose a model, REGARDLESS of the result you may add the dice roll to your move.

What we have here is basically a 12+D6" if they move using rokkit packs. This means there is no need for the Waaagh! rule as there is no need to run in the shooting phase (as the +D6" has given us our run move) and we can still assault (because we didn't run in the shooting phase).

I made the same mistake you did to begin with, but read the rules carefully and repeatedly, soon it will dawn on you that stormboyz are actually awesome-sauce!

As for ball-dropped units, Zzap guns, So I'm not guaranteed a decent S value, nor am I guaranteed to hit?
Well I'll just take a kannon that can multi-purpose it's shooting instead then...

Netglen wrote:

My WS never seem to last past turn 2. They either get slagged by multiple long range shots or get deepstriked by units with a melta. The last one got hit with a melta 4" away, guy hits then rolls a 4 for a pen. Then rolls a 6 on the dmg chart.

A 4 is a glance dude. 8 + 4 = 12 vs AV 12. And please don't tell me you aren't able to protect your WS's back armor when you see deep-striking melta guys coming a mile away

For a S8 shot to pop a Wave Serpent, the pen and damage dice have to be 5/5, 5/6, or 6/6. There's a 16.7% chance of that happening (it's a bit better if it's AP1 of course). And that's if they hit you.

Mandrakes and the decapitator

S3 infiltrators with no special weapons and they have to kill something before they can shoot

And the decapitator, the Dark Eldar Lictor.
Wow it can deep strike into any terrain it wants ?! awesome!
Oh no wait, it cant assault the turn it deep strikes? and its T3 and doesn't have eternal warrior? lame

I can really only complain about units in armies i have faced so apologies if i miss anything. there aren't many but every now and then a unit stands out and just shouts "I'm ". anyway, here goes....

The Tau Piranha: a nice kit sure but its not really that special in any sense and any Tau unit that isn't in some kind of suit should never have short ranged weaponry. which leads me
onto......

Commander Shadowsun: although having a suit, she isn't really good at much. she only ever gets one shot off against me before being swamped by the nine other guys left standing.

Bikers (sm & csm): i got these bought for me when i first started playing the game and i have hardly ever, in 11 years of playing 40k, come up against another player who uses these.
They look cool but for the cost to buy and for their use in the game they are just wasted money and points IMHO

mercury14 wrote:

Netglen wrote:

My WS never seem to last past turn 2. They either get slagged by multiple long range shots or get deepstriked by units with a melta. The last one got hit with a melta 4" away, guy hits then rolls a 4 for a pen. Then rolls a 6 on the dmg chart.

A 4 is a glance dude. 8 + 4 = 12 vs AV 12. And please don't tell me you aren't able to protect your WS's back armor when you see deep-striking melta guys coming a mile away

For a S8 shot to pop a Wave Serpent, the pen and damage dice have to be 5/5, 5/6, or 6/6. There's a 16.7% chance of that happening (it's a bit better if it's AP1 of course). And that's if they hit you.

even if that 4 was a glance the roll of a 6 on the damage chart would have wrecked the WS. Meltaguns are Ap1.

Exergy wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:
DE-
Bloodbrides (outclassed by incubi, and FOCd by Trueborn every time)

Bloodbrides lose a lot from not being troops and competeing for FOC slots with great units and mandrakes. They do get 1/3 wych weapons but thats where GW dropped the ball. Wych weapons suck. For their current effectiveness they are worth 5 points, maybe. Def not 10.

With equal points of bloodbrides and incubi (ten and six, respectively), the incubi do a single more wound against MEQ (4, as opposed to three) correction, about double, I didn't plug the right strength into the simulator, at six to three, and against GEQ the bloodbrides comes out ahead by about 50% (11 versus seven eight). They're neither bad, nor even necessarily suboptimal, they're just less popular than trueborn with blasters, which are really pretty terrible antitank (having half the threat radius of a ravager, a single shot more, and costing three points more base, not counting the cost of a transport to protect them (which doesn't extend their threat radius unless you're willing to disembark them)) but are frequently needed due to a general lack of ranged antitank.

Voidraven (too expensive, doesn't come with missiles standard. Some might disagree, but I've had nothing but bad luck with them)

Mandrakes are by far the worst thing in the book followed by the voidraven.

The voidraven isn't terrible, it's just overcosted (or rather, its missiles are). If the missiles only cost five points a piece, it would still be a viable upgrade over a razorwing, which provides the best ranged anti-infantry in the codex, and after wiping out a good chunk of the opposing infantry can switch over to killing tanks almost as well as a ravager could. Ravagers are still preferred over razorwings because of the general lack of ranged anti-tank, though.

Mandrakes are utterly useless though.

Im going to throw out there Kabalite warriors, they just dont have the firepower to do much of anything. other than a 5 man unit with a blaster as a venom unlock I cant see them ever being that good. sure posion is good, but everythign else in the army has better posion.

The five in a venom with a blaster is even worse than trueblasters for the cost. You're paying 60 points for a single 18" darklight shot. The only thing worse are blast pistols, where you're paying a total of 25 points (counting the upgrade character) for a single 6" darklight shot.


The responses in this thread seem to be focusing on several separate questions. One side seems to be running with "units that were almost good, but have either some flaw of their own, or compete against something great/mediocre but obligatory", another with "units that are completely and utterly pointless, because they do exactly nothing even mediocrely, and are expensive to boot", and then just a generic "units that are slightly suboptimal".

mercury14 wrote:

Netglen wrote:

My WS never seem to last past turn 2. They either get slagged by multiple long range shots or get deepstriked by units with a melta. The last one got hit with a melta 4" away, guy hits then rolls a 4 for a pen. Then rolls a 6 on the dmg chart.

A 4 is a glance dude. 8 + 4 = 12 vs AV 12. And please don't tell me you aren't able to protect your WS's back armor when you see deep-striking melta guys coming a mile away

For a S8 shot to pop a Wave Serpent, the pen and damage dice have to be 5/5, 5/6, or 6/6. There's a 16.7% chance of that happening (it's a bit better if it's AP1 of course). And that's if they hit you.

Like what someone already stated, AP1 weapon hitting my side armor on a 6 wrecks. So kindly explain how I should avoid a melta attack from a BA deep striking tac marines when they magicallly appear next to my WS? Just a side note, I had my rear positioned where nothing can attack it even from a DS.

The Tau Piranha: a nice kit sure but its not really that special in any sense and any Tau unit that isn't in some kind of suit should never have short ranged weaponry. which leads me
onto......

wait, wha.... oh, you think that piranhas supposed to be used primarily for anti tank, HA!

Piranhas are execellent at what they do, blocking and harassing: drop your drones, flat out to a vehicle/ footslogging unit, and dare them to ram/ attack you, then laugh as you make your 3+ dodge or when that ork horde has to take wounds from flechette discharges

the fusion blaster is just a bonus

Netglen wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

Netglen wrote:

My WS never seem to last past turn 2. They either get slagged by multiple long range shots or get deepstriked by units with a melta. The last one got hit with a melta 4" away, guy hits then rolls a 4 for a pen. Then rolls a 6 on the dmg chart.

A 4 is a glance dude. 8 + 4 = 12 vs AV 12. And please don't tell me you aren't able to protect your WS's back armor when you see deep-striking melta guys coming a mile away

For a S8 shot to pop a Wave Serpent, the pen and damage dice have to be 5/5, 5/6, or 6/6. There's a 16.7% chance of that happening (it's a bit better if it's AP1 of course). And that's if they hit you.

Like what someone already stated, AP1 weapon hitting my side armor on a 6 wrecks. So kindly explain how I should avoid a melta attack from a BA deep striking tac marines when they magicallly appear next to my WS? Just a side note, I had my rear positioned where nothing can attack it even from a DS.

Explain how anyone can avoid this? BA deep-striking meltas will take down any vehicle, kindly explain how it's only a weakness of the WS?

Toastedandy wrote:Mandrakes and the decapitator

S3 infiltrators with no special weapons and they have to kill something before they can shoot

This. Especialy the Decapitator. I love how they actually seem to think he is lethal with his special rule of appearing 1 inch away from an enemy unit (despite being unable to assault), setting himself up to be shot to pieces, insta-killed with a meltagun, or assaulted and wasted (with a dreadnaught if you're feeling particularly nasty).

I think Huron is also a very fail unit: little more than a Chaos Lord with Warptime and a slightly better flamer, lacking any fun rules or durability.

Chaos Dreads, as has been richly expounded on a thousand threads.

Comissar Warrick. He's a curious, mixed beast that tries to be a combat monster (despite losing to almost any combat specialist from other armies) and loses Orders, one of the main things that make IG special and functional.

C: Tyranids... just saying.

Grey Templar wrote:

mythological wrote:@ ChiliPowderKeg

mythological said:
Tau Special Characters (I'm looking at you Space Pope)

you sir, have been outplayed

but not outtyped

Raglrblargbllpblt!
Ctrl-F has failed me again

Netglen wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

Netglen wrote:

My WS never seem to last past turn 2. They either get slagged by multiple long range shots or get deepstriked by units with a melta. The last one got hit with a melta 4" away, guy hits then rolls a 4 for a pen. Then rolls a 6 on the dmg chart.

A 4 is a glance dude. 8 + 4 = 12 vs AV 12. And please don't tell me you aren't able to protect your WS's back armor when you see deep-striking melta guys coming a mile away

For a S8 shot to pop a Wave Serpent, the pen and damage dice have to be 5/5, 5/6, or 6/6. There's a 16.7% chance of that happening (it's a bit better if it's AP1 of course). And that's if they hit you.

Like what someone already stated, AP1 weapon hitting my side armor on a 6 wrecks. So kindly explain how I should avoid a melta attack from a BA deep striking tac marines when they magicallly appear next to my WS? Just a side note, I had my rear positioned where nothing can attack it even from a DS.

So you're saying someone got a lucky shot on you and because of that Wave Serpents aren't survivable? Really?

Let's compare that deep-striking melta hit on your WS to the same hit versus a Land Raider. Assuming the shot hits, your WS is glanced on a 4, a 50% chance for some type of damage and only a 33% chance for a pen. On the other hand, the Land Raider is going to eat the full melta hit which is an average pen roll of 15. That's a 72% chance for some type of damage and a 58.3% chance of a penetrating hit.

So there, I just proved that your Wave Serpents are far more survivable than Land Raiders in your scenario. Not sure why you're complaining.

ivangterrace wrote:GK terminators.

The fluff says that more terminators are fielded than power armor marines but when the terminators have crappy invul saves, I would rather take power armor marines because I can get more firepower out of them and they are way cheaper so they are easier to fit in my lists.

The most terminators I find I can fit in my lists are around the 20 model mark, but I usually have 30ish power armor marines so it still doesn't quite follow the book.

Not that I'm saying the terminators are bad really, I just find more use out of the power armor grey knights than the TDA ones.

I find strike squads only useful for warp quake ......
Terminators? Nothing really

Purifiers? Cleansing flame 4 psy cannons being awesome and being the most spammed unit now

Khorne Flakes wrote:
I find strike squads only useful for warp quake ......
Terminators? Nothing really

Purifiers? Cleansing flame 4 psy cannons being awesome and being the most spammed unit now

I have to be one of the only people not using Purifiers I use regular strike squads/interceptors.

My vote for the worst unit out there: Pyrovore.... /thread

Pyrovore takes the cake for me on the 'awesome model with crappy rules' stakes.

Rippers too. Pity, really. I really love the little anklebiters, but they never seem to catch a break

Heavy Destroyers... 65 pts for one shot a piece. Who cares if they move around a lot. They always miss, or roll 1s to wound.

Tomb Spiders... 55 pts for something that usually kills itself if it uses its special rulle too much and cant use its special rule if goes into combat with a whopping WS2, I2.

CSM bikers, Furies OH GOD FURIES >.<


And it went the black and white space marine...

lowmanjason wrote:Heavy Destroyers... 65 pts for one shot a piece. Who cares if they move around a lot. They always miss, or roll 1s to wound.

BS4 and wounding on 2's shouldn't be that bad, the bigger problem is that they are old. Back in 3E and 4E they were stellar units, as was most of the Necron codex. The codex bloat and core rules changes since then have changed that.

Tomb Spiders... 55 pts for something that usually kills itself if it uses its special rulle too much and cant use its special rule if goes into combat with a whopping WS2, I2.

It's still probably the cheapest MC in the game. Not amazing, but not awful either. It's slow speed hurts it more than anything else.

Compare these units to other 3E books and you'll see what I'm talking about, they weren't bad for when they were designed at all.

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Scouts in BA, Imean with assualt marines, tactical marines adn both death company options why even include them?
Sanguinary guard suffer from a lack of Inv saves

Ork Stormboyz, sure they have jump packs but they lose the Waagh! rule for no apparent reason.

Stormravens generally strike me as awful, if you give it Hurricane Bolters for +20pts you could just have a Land raider Crusader (Same weaponary is AV14 all round instead of 12-12-10)

I agree with the scouts

Not having an Inv Save does not make them a bad choice. If you take Dante (ie you only take them with Dante) They are a hard hitting Troop Choice.

Not unlike most of the Nerd Rage on the forums, I like the Storm Raven. It's hard to compare it to a Landraider. It can out move the landraider, Can get a +4 save, and the one thing it is prized for is delivering a Dread to the front line, and not having the Dread stand there and get shot up for a turn. Something a Landraider can not do, nor can a Drop Pod.

Byte wrote:C: Tyranids... just saying.

I'm surprised it took to page four for this.

You are all wrong.

It doesn't matter what army we're talking.

It doesn't matter what unit we're discussing.

Nothing can match the epic fail that is Castellan Crowe.

That said, I just bought the model... it is a great model.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:You are all wrong.

It doesn't matter what army we're talking.

It doesn't matter what unit we're discussing.

Nothing can match the epic fail that is Castellan Crowe.

That said, I just bought the model... it is a great model.

My Mandrakes would like to have a word with you. Just saying

Leigen_Zero wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
Ork Stormboyz, sure they have jump packs but they lose the Waagh! rule for no apparent reason.

You do realize that they do not need the Waaagh! rule, it's just that GW's poor wording makes it seem worse

Read the rules:
every time a stormboyz mob uses its rokkit packs, roll a D6, if it's a 1, lose a model, REGARDLESS of the result you may add the dice roll to your move.

What we have here is basically a 12+D6" if they move using rokkit packs. This means there is no need for the Waaagh! rule as there is no need to run in the shooting phase (as the +D6" has given us our run move) and we can still assault (because we didn't run in the shooting phase).

I made the same mistake you did to begin with, but read the rules carefully and repeatedly, soon it will dawn on you that stormboyz are actually awesome-sauce!

As for ball-dropped units, Zzap guns, So I'm not guaranteed a decent S value, nor am I guaranteed to hit?
Well I'll just take a kannon that can multi-purpose it's shooting instead then...

i didn't notice that thanks,

I do feel that Killa-Kans and deff dreads are just as good,
Deff Dreads can be troops and are absolute monsters in combat (6 S10 on the charge) but Klla kans can be taken in groups of 3 and @35pts basic with weapons they are useful moving fire platforms

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:You are all wrong.

It doesn't matter what army we're talking.

It doesn't matter what unit we're discussing.

Nothing can match the epic fail that is Castellan Crowe.

That said, I just bought the model... it is a great model.

YES!

He is the only GK not to use a force or power weapon and he has a totaly awsome socks sword at that

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:You are all wrong.

It doesn't matter what army we're talking.

It doesn't matter what unit we're discussing.

Nothing can match the epic fail that is Castellan Crowe.

That said, I just bought the model... it is a great model.

YES!

He is the only GK not to use a force or power weapon and he has a totaly awsome socks sword at that

he rends on a 4+, he's the only GK that doesn't need Hammerhand to wound T8+ things and he can crack tanks.

rending on a 4+ is practically a Power Weapon and better in some cases. against T4, its a power weapon. against T3 and less, well, then it starts to lose effectivness. against T5+, its alot better.


He also makes Purifiers troops. they are probably one of the best troop choices in the game at the moment.

and he is dirt cheap for what you get.