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Good to see the obligatory, nonsensical comparing of a Wave Serpent to a Rhino. They're so fantastically different yet there's always someone who makes a false comparison by ignoring half the characteristics a serpent has.

Re Deffdredds:



The model is so cool

Also, you can't take killakanz as troops

I feel like Sword Bretheren should be more than what they are. They're terrible as a melee squad, about 200 points for 5 to be half-assed terminators. As shooters they're actually pretty good though, 115 for a melta,multimelta and infiltrate.

Vaktathi wrote:Sentinels are probably one of the worst units in the game in terms of firepower per points spent and easily killed.

No, that's Repentia.

You aren't just paying for its firepower, but also its Scout rule or its armor. If you're unwilling to make use of Outflank rules to see the uses of Scout Sentinels, that's your problem. For Armored Sentinels, they're useful in both shooting and melee, and cheap enough that they are effective mobile fire support.

They just don't generate sufficient firepower with a single BS3 weapon to really justify their points.

Sure they do. A few multilasers or autocannons from the remarkably cheap scout sentinels on side or rear armor is plenty to do some real damage to enemy tanks, and the heavy flamers are useful against almost all infantry combined with an assault to tie them up after.

Armored sentinels can serve as assault tarpits but thats about it, and are also horrifically overpriced as shooting platforms.

Hardly, they're mobile firing platforms capable of safely firing a plasma cannon on the move, and are immune to most melee attacks (needing at least S6 to do any real damage, and even having a good chance of surviving a power fist hit which needs a roll of 5 or 6 to pen).

Ogryns will generally get outfought by just about any half-CC oriented unit

So you don't fight them point for point. That would be stupid. Like with all things IG, you whittle down the enemy in shooting before the assault, and let the 3 wound T5 ogryns assault what's left. Hell Ogryns have enough strength to destroy vehicles in melee, nevermind slaughter marines. They are a bit overpriced so most people would prefer to just get a few more cannons in instead, but they're anything but useless.

Vanquishers are one of the worst tank hunters in the game for their points.

No, that would be tankbustas. Vanquishers do excellently against hard targets.

Bassys suffer from a ridiculous minimum range for indirect fire that makes them largely ineffective in normal games

If they're too close for indirect fire, then they can almost always direct fire-- which is more accurate anyway.

and mostly pointless next to the other arty units outside of Apocalypse.

Lol, no.

What on earth do Lord Commissar's do for a Vet army?

They're relatively cheap for their WS values, they can join a vet squad in a chimera to give them an extra edge in CC, and they provide a stubborn aura which is better than fearless in an assault.

Hellhounds don't do anything that the HS options, Troops, or other FA won't do better and/or cheaper.

Except be a Fast Scout unit and having a variant able to ignore power armor and wound marines on a 2+ even after moving 12", or an S6 heavy flamer which can give instant death to all T3 armies that dare stick their heads out of their transports, or the only melta blast in the game, which provide a melta effect at 12" after having already moved 12" and after outflanking.

None of the other units in C:IG can do any of that. Hell I don't even LIKE hellhound variants, but that doesn't mean they're uncompetitive.

Comapre a Hellhound to something like a Baal pred and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Why would I want to do that? Oh wait, I wouldn't. Different army, different standards. And even then, the Baal Predator can't do what the Hellhound can.

You'll notice very few IG lists take many, or more typically, any, of the units listed above. You may see Armored sentinels

Sure I do. Or perhaps you haven't taken a gander at the IGMB? Dakka's army list, tactica, and YMDC forums are extremely skewed and I would not want advice from most of them on the specifics of the Imperial Guard's operation.

When I mentioned vets, I did in fact providede explanation.

Not a very good one. Of course they're better mechanized, all T3 armies are (it's just how it goes in 5th edition), but triple melta isn't the only viable build for them. Personally I prefer to have my vehicles be my anti-armour, so that I can have flamer/flamer/heavy flamer vets with carapace and shotguns. Joined by a lord commissar with twin pfists and carapace, there's not many units that can survive the combined shooting AND assault from this unit intact. Then of course, triple plasmas also work excellently against MEQ armies, and they can fire those quite well out of a chimera thank you very much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ivangterrace wrote:Termis only get 4+ invul in combat, otherwise they get the standard 5+.

Terminators with the new storm shields get a permanent 3+ save, not just in close combat.

Scott-S6 wrote:
You think that guardians, guardian jetbikes and wraithlords are good? You think that fire dragons without transports are good?

No, but they aren't completely useless. They're just below average. (average being something that the Eldar codex doesn't come within a whiff of anywhere).

In the right hands, an Eldar army is still a force to be reckoned with; people constantly say Sisters are crap, but there's a local player here who has wiped the floor with all challengers thus far.

Eldar don't have the best units which may be individually bad, but together make an army that will constantly vie for dominance in any metagame.

Right, when I said they dropped the ball I mean they really just didn't give us any true variation.

Celestians are a good example-- they could have been an excellent assault choice, but instead they have bolters. That extra attack (which always hits on a 3+ unless they can do better with their WS4) makes a huge difference, or rather, its lack does. Assault Marines would be far less if they had bolters instead of BP+CCW. A definite ball-dropping.

Dominions are another example-- an already overpriced unit has the option of taking four overpriced special weapons (Even for the time) and has to take an overpriced vehicle. If they had something like Scouts though, their price would be perfectly justified.

Retributors yet another. They only have two options, heavy bolters or multi-meltas. So outside of planetstrike (Where they can stick four relatively cheap BS4 multi-meltas in a bastion) noone really uses them-- they have to compete against Exorcists, and frankly they don't. They rather dropped the ball here too.

The fluff for Immolators says they're their own unique STC, but they failed at actually producing that in the rules. If they had AV12 front armor, they'd be worth every point, but as it is, they're just overpriced razorbacks, they were even back in the day. They rather dropped the ball there.

Palatines are just worthless, for a mere ten points you get vastly increased stats and another faith point, so nobody takes them. Another ball dropped in the Sisters' court.

Penitent Engines are an awesome idea as well, but AV11 open topped is just too much fragility for them to be used. They'd make a wonderful monstrous creature though in the same vein as the dreadknight, hell, they make far more sense as an MC than the dreadknight does. Perhaps this isn't really ball-dropping per se but the effect is the same, and hopefully a fifth edition codex will remedy this.

Melissia wrote:No, that's Repentia.

Well, them too yeah

You aren't just paying for its firepower, but also its Scout rule or its armor. If you're unwilling to make use of Outflank rules to see the uses of Scout Sentinels, that's your problem. For Armored Sentinels, they're useful in both shooting and melee, and cheap enough that they are effective mobile fire support.

Scout doesn't do a whole lot of good for them unfortunately. Outflanking can be useful, but even in that role it's not terribly threatening.. 40pts for a BS3 AV10 OT'd autocannon platform isn't generally the best use of points. Armored Sentinels are useful for tarpitting stuff as I said before (in which case they should be as cheap as possible), but for fire support? A chimera will do the same job better for anti-infantry fire, and hydras/vendettas/lrbt's/etc will do AT/blast fire far better.

Sure they do. A few multilasers or autocannons from the remarkably cheap scout sentinels on side or rear armor is plenty to do some real damage to enemy tank

Generally for the same points you can get better weapons that can provide more survivability and raw firepower for similar points. The outflanking is the only possible saving grace, but given that I can generate heavier firepower against the forward arc with the same points, it seems sort moot.

and the heavy flamers are useful against almost all infantry combined with an assault to tie them up after.

With AV10 and open topped, they are easily killed in assaults by many common infantry, glancing hits kill them on a 5+ if squadroned.

Hardly, they're mobile firing platforms capable of safely firing a plasma cannon on the move

Not something IG really need all that bad, and aren't cheap for that either, and can get on other platforms.

and are immune to most melee attacks (needing at least S6 to do any real damage, and even having a good chance of surviving a power fist hit which needs a roll of 5 or 6 to pen).

Agreed, which is why they make good tarpits.

So you don't fight them point for point. That would be stupid. Like with all things IG, you whittle down the enemy in shooting before the assault, and let the 3 wound T5 ogryns assault what's left. Hell Ogryns have enough strength to destroy vehicles in melee, nevermind slaughter marines. They are a bit overpriced so most people would prefer to just get a few more cannons in instead, but they're anything but useless.

If I'm paying a huge number of points for a heavy direct assault unit that needs to be babysat and have it's equivalently costed targets softened up before it can be assured of success, it doesn't really sound like all that great of a unit. I sure don't have to routinely do that with most other assault units.

No, that would be tankbustas. Vanquishers do excellently against hard targets.

On average, it'll take about 10-11 rounds of shooting with a Vanquisher cannon to inflict a single destroyed/explodes result on a Land Raider, or about 8 with a hull lascannon. Every other non-melta AT platform in the army that can harm AV14 will at worst match that against AV14 and be better against anything AV13 or less, or will simply do better. The much maligned Trilas predator is just as effective against AV14 and more effective against anything lighter.

If they're too close for indirect fire, then they can almost always direct fire-- which is more accurate anyway.

36" is still pretty far, you won't always be guaranteed direct fire LoS from there. And if you're using them directly, not only are you exposing it to return fire, but why bother with a Bassy at all? that's it's greatest issue, is that the minimum range blocks off so much of a normal gameboard as to make it pointless next to an LRBT or other arty. For apoc games on huge boards, they're great, but otherwise, not so much.

They're relatively cheap for their WS values

Have you seen the GK Inquistiors that are nearly 1/3rd the cost? WS5 is cool. On an S3 T3 I3 5+sv model...not terribly useful however.

they can join a vet squad in a chimera to give them an extra edge in CC,

If they're in CC, they're screwed anyway, why waste points trying to mitigate that instead of buying more guns and tanks?

and they provide a stubborn aura which is better than fearless in an assault.

Again, if they've been forced out of the tanks and into assaults, they're likely screwed either way. They certainly aren't going to turn back an assault from any but the weeniest of units.

Except be a Fast Scout unit

Hellhounds don't have Scout (unless I'm totally farking stupid). If they did, it'd be a different story. They'd be awesome.

and having a variant able to ignore power armor and wound marines on a 2+ even after moving 12"

A battlecannon can do that 72" away. A collossus can do it at a pretty hilarious distance as well while also ignoring cover and doesn't need LoS or ot be in melta/assault range.

, or an S6 heavy flamer which can give instant death to all T3 armies that dare stick their heads out of their transports

which is nice, but highly situational, especially when the majority of opponents are T4 3+ sv armies.

or the only melta blast in the game, which provide a melta effect at 12" after having already moved 12" and after outflanking.

Again, they can't outflank. As for the meltablast, it's basically a short ranged plasma cannon that gets a melta effect. Cool, but not that cool, especially as just one weapon destroyed result renders it largely fast moving terrain.

Why would I want to do that? Oh wait, I wouldn't. Different army, different standards. And even then, the Baal Predator can't do what the Hellhound can.

Scout/Outflank for one It's a BS4 banewolf with scout and the ability to take more guns.

Sure I do. Or perhaps you haven't taken a gander at the IGMB?

IGMB?

Dakka's army list, tactica, and YMDC forums are extremely skewed and I would not want advice from most of them on the specifics of the Imperial Guard's operation.

I'm not talking about dakka, I really don't go to the army list forums here. I'm speaking from personal experience at tournaments, leagues, stores and various events over the last couple years in several different metro areas. Subjective granted, but having played in about a dozen stores across Oregon, Washington, and California, there's a lot of variation there.

Not a very good one. Of course they're better mechanized, all T3 armies are (it's just how it goes in 5th edition), but triple melta isn't the only viable build for them. Personally I prefer to have my vehicles be my anti-armour, so that I can have flamer/flamer/heavy flamer vets with carapace and shotguns. Joined by a lord commissar with twin pfists and carapace, there's not many units that can survive the combined shooting AND assault from this unit intact.

That's a 235pt unit there, nearly 300pts with a Chimera. A 235pt WS3 S3 T3 I3 A1 4+sv assault unit. If it works for you, who am I to argue, but I can think of far more fearsome assault units for the same points, and a lot better use of those points in an IG army.

Then of course, triple plasmas also work excellently against MEQ armies, and they can fire those quite well out of a chimera thank you very much.

You'll notice I did mention plasma.

Samus_aran115 wrote:
DE-
Bloodbrides (outclassed by incubi, and FOCd by Trueborn every time)
Grotesques (Just bad, although I do see some use for them in the future. Depends on the model, really)
reavers (worthless. Nothing more than an annoyance unit. Hellions are better, especially with sathonix)
Scourges (replaced easily by Trueborn. No point in using them)
Voidraven (too expensive, doesn't come with missiles standard. Some might disagree, but I've had nothing but bad luck with them)

While I agree all those units are bad, I wouldnt say the dropped the ball with Reavers or Scourges, they just didnt do a particularly great job with them and they are not all that wonderful in todays meta.
Bloodbrides lose a lot from not being troops and competeing for FOC slots with great units and mandrakes. They do get 1/3 wych weapons but thats where GW dropped the ball. Wych weapons suck. For their current effectiveness they are worth 5 points, maybe. Def not 10.

Mandrakes are by far the worst thing in the book followed by the voidraven.

Im going to throw out there Kabalite warriors, they just dont have the firepower to do much of anything. other than a 5 man unit with a blaster as a venom unlock I cant see them ever being that good. sure posion is good, but everythign else in the army has better posion.

Hey look, twins!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/369182.page

I'll repeat what I said there with the Tau units being all of the Special Characters (I'm looking at you Space Pope), Vespids, Sniper Drone Teams, Drone Fast Attack Squadron, Stealth teams in anything outside apocalpse, and the humble Skyray

*looks up* sigh...

How can anyone say chaos bikers are useless? I run a squad of 5 w. 2 meltas and a fist with IoN, won me an annihalition game today by taking out 3 ork truks and surviving!

Possesed otoh, far too erratic and costly, what a shame they are some of the nicer CSM minis. Thus go down as my "dropped the ball"

ruminator wrote:

SM - Overcosted predator upgrades.

The price of the predator upgrades balances out the initial price of the predator themselves, its just the opposite for older codices like Black Templar (more pricey base vehicle, but cheaper upgrades).

hellrai3er wrote:How can anyone say chaos bikers are useless? I run a squad of 5 w. 2 meltas and a fist with IoN, won me an annihalition game today by taking out 3 ork truks and surviving!

275pts took out ~100pts (I believe trukks are quite cheap)? A lot of things can nuke Ork trukks for far less than 275pts; one obliterator could do it and save you 200pts in the process.

Surprised the Pariah has only been mentioned once, over priced and in CC, which they're built for, odds are they'll strike after the unit they need to kill and still die first due to lack of Invul or WBB... still field them so often though @..@

I'm-a toss out the Heavy Destroyers here to, a regular one is not to bad but really, both should have just 2 wounds, they're to expensive to not have 'em. The T6 is very nice, and I can't begrudge that, but the single wound really kills the Heavy D., the smaller one can at least pump out enough shots to make it worth it's points quickly

Vaktathi: No offense, but after all that crap with im2random I'm just not bored enough to get into another quote war Not meaning to ignore you, just too much work.

IGMB = Imperial Guard Message Board. Top three links when ya google IGMB. It's focused almost entirely on the IG, and most of its posters are focused on that army, much like the The-WAAAGH forums are focused on Orks (which is why I would also go there for Ork advice), whereas Dakka appears to have a far more general audience despite its apparent Ork origins.

But suffice it to say, when I was talking about Ogryns, I'm more looking at the context of the army's own style, which is "shoot it, shoot it some more, and finish it off by shooting it again or by assaulting it after shooting it."

That's also why flamer-carapace vets work. They don't NEED to do that much damage in an assault. They just need to whittle down the assaulters' numbers so much that they can still overwhelm them anyway. I've beaten a thirty strong Ork mob-- one of the best assault units in the game point per point-- this way simply because there was so many flamer and shotgun wounds, combined with a high initiative, that the Orks simply didn't have enough bodies left to present a threat. The Chimera can add two of its own heavy flamers to the mix to boot if you play it right.

Because surprisingly no one has mentioned them.

AUN'VA AND THE REST OF THE SPACE PAPACY

Nigh survivable HQs that only make your shooting "focused" army slightly better at combat, or flee off the board, after they get killed first.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:
You think that guardians, guardian jetbikes and wraithlords are good? You think that fire dragons without transports are good?

No, but they aren't completely useless. They're just below average. (average being something that the Eldar codex doesn't come within a whiff of anywhere).

I would consider Guardian Jetbikes to be "good", Guardians to be "below average", and Wraithlords to be "average".

I would consider Fire Dragons without a Transport to be "an incredibly dumb way of using them". Units with short-ranged weaponry are not meant to march slowly across the battlefield; calling them mediocre because you're using them poorly is silly.

@ ChiliPowderKeg

mythological said:
Tau Special Characters (I'm looking at you Space Pope)

you sir, have been outplayed

mythological wrote:@ ChiliPowderKeg

mythological said:
Tau Special Characters (I'm looking at you Space Pope)

you sir, have been outplayed

but not outtyped

lol i think by the time this thread is over every unit will suck, I only read first page and they had deff dreads, gk terms, and wave serpants lol.

Frankly I actually prefer deff dreads over killa kans.

Pyrovores definitely deserve to be mentioned. A flamer unit with no means of reaching anything, A special rule that, if it does anything, usually hurts you instead of the enemy. Acid Maw isn't bad...except it's a single WS3 I1 attack... and to top it off competes with the Hive guard, which only costs 5 more points.

I can't believe IG vets were mentioned. Why don't we just say Paladins are garbage because if you only buy 1 and upgrade it to an apolthecary with a brotherhood banner it's overpriced.

Pathfinders, I can use battlesuit squads with marker light drones that can move and shoot their marker lights. And I can sacrifice them instead of taking a wound on my suits.

no way man, Pathfinders are the Bee's Knees.

best and cheapest way to get massed marker lights on the field onto a target.

Sanguinary Guard should be WS5, seriously, veterans of thousands of battles living legends in their own right with as much experience as a captain and they're the same as a space marine

Hmm, well, we cant mention useless units without bringing up the enginseers. 1wd models at 50 pts?. think ill take a IG
infantry squad instead, thanx.

Grey Templar wrote:you kidding?

auto-passing or failing ANY morale or pinning test? thats pretty powerful

Calgar's got some good rules and is underrated.

just like Abbaddon.


they often don't get used for psycological resons. oooo you're using papa smurf" "ooo, you're using Failbaddon"

correction, 13 time failbaddon. With a track record like that it's no wonder he doesn't get picked

but picking what has not been mentioned I would have to say Tau Stealth Suits and the kroot sharper.
Now they are not as bad as the vespid and snipers, but here me out a second

Stealth suit-takes up and elite slot, expensive and not as effective as a crisis suit. I have yet to see any competitive list field them, or to see them offer any long term game benefit. Sure they may pop a transport or two, but MP or Fusion Blasters on a crisis suit can do that. If they were in a different category than elite I would say that they are better

Shaprer- He only gives a 6+ save on the kroot, something that will almost never come i handy or pay off. Plus there is the price, if he were cheaper than I would say he's worth it. The 3 wounds do not really matter at all, and he does not have a power weapon or poison weapon for close combat. I'd say if he were given something for close combat benefit and a little cheaper than he would be worth it

Heavy Destroyers , Flayed ones and Pariahs-nice ideas, but hard to make work atm.

Furies...make them cheap and troops. Beasts of Nurgle...just no...and if only Bloodletters could be given Iron Hide..

Here is an epic face-palm: Dark Angel Tactical Marines. Even though it is the only troop choice (without a special character) in the book they are still outclassed by every other DA scoring option and every other color of Space Marine. With just the addition of something like Stubborn in the latest FAQ, GW could have made them at least a little appealing, but no, they are just an under-performing, boring unit.

I'd have to say Deathwing. The elite of the elite terminators, and they are castrated at 5 per squad? Everyone else get a lot more per squad, and they are hard to wipe out. Geanted, they are the only really Fearless terminators out there, but 5??? And the Deathwing Assault is a rather misnamed ability, as they only get to Deep Strike first turn. Maybe update to a Heroic Intervention-style kind of thing? But the assault just drops terminators to get shot up. And don't even get me started that they are the only terminators without dedicated transport options...