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NuggzTheNinja wrote:The only thing worse than having to shell out $60 for a fething tank would be GW going out of business, and people being stuck with $10,000 worth of plastic figures. Let's be honest: you don't really want to hurt GW too much. Save money where you can and put up with it.

I think we would like GW to scale back their prices abit, especially since we assumed that resin would be cheaper when they switched from metals.

WarOne wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:The only thing worse than having to shell out $60 for a fething tank would be GW going out of business, and people being stuck with $10,000 worth of plastic figures. Let's be honest: you don't really want to hurt GW too much. Save money where you can and put up with it.

I think we would like GW to scale back their prices abit, especially since we assumed that resin would be cheaper when they switched from metals.

Nobody really thought it would be cheaper, that would never happen, prices do NOT go down, anything, ever. the main hope was that it wouldn't go up or have a need to go up for quite a while

Buy from a third party: pay MSRP or less
Buy from GW: MSRP

Difference? paying GW's MSRP sees all of the money go in GW's pocket. If a third party seller charges MSRP or less, then they keep a portion. Remember, they bought their stuff from GW, and these people are happy to get what they get out of it. Since GW isn't selling it to the customer direct, its already earning less.

Lets say, theoretically, out of a $100, $50 is what it cost to make the thing, ship it, and another $20 for the store to "buy" it. Now, a third party retailler still buys it for $70, and sells it for $100, but keeps $30 for itself. A GW store that sells it for $100, keeps $50... riiiiiight? yes, I know im butchering the way it works here, but GW gets less from a third party than from itself.

Moral: buying third-party does hurt.


Anyway, We won't be seeing a price reduction untill they drop their actual store chain. I can't think of any other company that creates dedicated chains of stores for carrying just their wargaming product, and GW swept its other games into a closet.. If they at least marketed all of their lines, then hey, they might be doing better. its not like you wouldnt learn the games at an FLGS, but once you add all the extra shipping, rent, and employment costs that are pretty much non-essential... yeah, ill bet thats a huge bite.

poda_t wrote:Buy from a third party: pay MSRP or less
Buy from GW: MSRP

Difference? paying GW's MSRP sees all of the money go in GW's pocket. If a third party seller charges MSRP or less, then they keep a portion. Remember, they bought their stuff from GW, and these people are happy to get what they get out of it. Since GW isn't selling it to the customer direct, its already earning less.

Lets say, theoretically, out of a $100, $50 is what it cost to make the thing, ship it, and another $20 for the store to "buy" it. Now, a third party retailler still buys it for $70, and sells it for $100, but keeps $30 for itself. A GW store that sells it for $100, keeps $50... riiiiiight? yes, I know im butchering the way it works here, but GW gets less from a third party than from itself.

Moral: buying third-party does hurt.

Actually, that's exactly the way it works. I would disagree that buying third-party "hurts" GW, as much as it means they're not making quite as much money as they would from their retail or online stores.

3rd party suppliers:

YOU the player may not be contributing to GW directly now but as you play and influence new players to play the game, new players will need thier own models. They will either buy from GW or from 3rd parties. 3rd party suppliers will continue to buy from GW. money is going to be pouring into GW nonetheless.

the chain is preserved and the cycle continues.

Has GW finally created a near self-perpetuating business model?

"Save money where you can and put up with it. " is the kind of thinking that gives GW freedom to do things that we all hate

I'm sure someones gonna be writing a paper about how GW does business one day and it'll be the wet dream of niche business owners everywhere. Most companies can only dream of what GW can pull off... It really is brilliant.

someone said that whats worse than paying high prices for a model is GW closing up. This is true. The only image i conjure up when I mull this over is that in effect GW is also holding itself up for ransom.

kinda like a hot psycho girlfriend who has a gun to her temple

I really cant see any other way that the cycle can be broken.

Can you?

I don't think it's clear that buying stuff from bartertown or Ebay is really going to hurt Games Workshop. It's a parallel economy, but one which is fed by the other. If every time you guy a used space robot from Coolguy123 on Ebay, Coolguy123 then goes a newer, better space robot from GWS....

If "u mad bro", just quit. That's all. Don't sing a song or organize a boycott or a petition or a facebook campaign or twitterbombing. Just stop buying their stuff, and continue to play with what you already have. Or play with someone else's really cool stuff. Try out At43, or Dust tactics, or Warmachines, or games like Last Night on Earth.

That's it.

That's all.

You don't need to stop PLAYING 40k to hurt GWs bottom line. You just need to STOP BUYING their stuff from them. It's quite possible to play the game with miniatures from other sources (ok, it may be problematic if your only club is in a GW store, but if you dine with the devil, you should expect some scorching.). I've done this for years. Besides, with each edition change, people leave their "hobby" (That's GW's "their hobby" not the first person possessive form, there.).
Hell, you can even *find* the rules elsewhere (like 2nd hand bookshops) with a little searching.

I'll just switch my 4500pts of Guard and my several thousand more points of SM to Tomorrow's War (human infantry is still human infantry, and powered armour is powered armour, and tracked slablike vehicles are still tanks). TW doesn't CARE whose models you use.

GW ONLY have you by the cojones if....
You ONLY play in GW stores- or GW Tournaments.

Otherwise you can persue YOUR hobby , using the minatures and rule sets YOU want to.

If GW plc closes,there are 100s of other wargame and minature companies out there, who provide much better value for money.

GW plc offer an 'fun- easy entry ' into (fictional) table top wargaming.

It is the first stepping stone for many on the way to your OWN wargaming hobby.

But GW plc use EVERY trick in the book to try to trap you in thier GW hobby (tm).And some people let them....

I already voted with my wallet, I quit. that's it, packing it in, going to warmachine.

Sergeant Horse wrote:Right....well thankfully,my flgs doesn't have a TFG, or smelly people....what we have is class terrain,great opponents, good food, private gaming rooms etc. I'm not knockinghowyou play mate,just sayingthatbyyou commenting "flgs suck", your limiting yourself unnecessarily. I do find it sad that your experiences have led to that view though.

Son I've been playing for 20 years. My experiences have lead to FLGS suck. We also have great food, great opponents, awesome terran we made over decades, an dprivate game rooms. PLus beer.

Its not a limit by any stretch. In fact I dont think any FLGS could do better, in my area. In fact, over the years, none have given their behavior. Which lead to private gaming club and playing in our basements.


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NuggzTheNinja wrote:The only thing worse than having to shell out $60 for a fething tank would be GW going out of business, and people being stuck with $10,000 worth of plastic figures. Let's be honest: you don't really want to hurt GW too much. Save money where you can and put up with it.

Really? Much like 3.5 dungeons and dragons, your stuff doesnt become worthless when WOTC released 4e. Folks can and still do play other editions. I know some that still play 2nd edition 40k for some reason. If GW disappeared today, folks would still be playing.

Realistically, in today's world it is unlikely the 40k IP wouldn't be sold off to some other company that would do something with it. it might be undeveloped for a few years, but it's a big enough property someone would do something with it.

40k IP has a lot of potential, you would have people fighting over it. It already has a lot of depth but is big enough that most ideas can fit in somewhere.

meh, I stopped playing and buying 40K when warmachine mkII came out. Privateer Press updated their entire model range, every single model from every single faction with the release of the new addition and the (optional) books for it coming out for the 11 factions in the space of a year. My Necron and Dark Eldar armies were ignored by GW more then half a decade and through two editions of the game.

Meanwhile warmachine, and many other games, don't have a You Make Da Call that makes you skin crawl at just how poorly the rules were written. Whenever I dip back into the forum for nostalgia I'm utterly flabbergasted at just how ambiguous the RaW is, it's just pathetic.

If people weren't sick of GW being a perversion of what the wargaming hobby should be by now I don't have much hope this latest series of events will do anything.

Like WoW is to the MMO genre 40K is to the table top wargaming scene, the masses will still keep at it.

Balance wrote:Realistically, in today's world it is unlikely the 40k IP wouldn't be sold off to some other company that would do something with it. it might be undeveloped for a few years, but it's a big enough property someone would do something with it.

If you knew who the board was that runs GW, you wouldn't have to worry about this conversation.


The Original thought behind the question is flawed. First, theres the issue of Shareholders. Second, the issue of the owners, I mean the real owners, of the so called "IP", then theres the little matter of the college board of directors, the banking conglomerate, and the manufacturing base that is in the shadows.

If anything? GW will consolidate the other companies and continue under one of thier other brand names. Much the same way as they did with Cidital.

Knowing the way that Business really runs helps in understanding HOW it runs.

If you don't believe me, do your homework on the fine print of the "Games Workshop". Aside from the financial backing, they have plenty of eggheads running around behind the scenes greasing skids, and keeping up appearances.

Grot 6, I think we ultimately agree... My point was that the IP is unlikely to truly 'die' at this point as it's achieved a sort of critical mass. Restructuring is certainly a possibility if it comes tot hat. I meant that I don't see many reasonable futures where the IP would be abandoned completely.

Maybe Hasbro will buy it and make a family game night type game out of 40k, ooh, maybe we will get a die in a popper-thingy in the middle of the board too!!

Bakerofish wrote:Stop playing.

That's daft.

A lot of us have enough stuff to last us forever. We don't need to buy anything more. I know I'm not.

And GW won't always have us by the balls because in my mind GW are nothing but 40K's current license holder. When they crash and burn, something I am looking forward to, 40K won't go with them. Someone will by it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Bakerofish wrote:Stop playing.

That's daft.

A lot of us have enough stuff to last us forever. We don't need to buy anything more. I know I'm not.

And GW won't always have us by the balls because in my mind GW are nothing but 40K's current license holder. When they crash and burn, something I am looking forward to, 40K won't go with them. Someone will by it.

You're making two very big assumptions.

1.) That someone will buy it.

2.) Someone won't just buy GW as a whole.

1. A large successful franchise that's existed for 25 years with a built-in fan base as well as multiple additional streams across video games, novels, RPG's and so on. You're right. I'm sure there are many game and toy companies out that will just let that wither and die. (/sarcasm)

2. And the difference is?

H.B.M.C. wrote:1. A large successful franchise that's existed for 25 years with a built-in fan base as well as multiple additional streams across video games, novels, RPG's and so on. You're right. I'm sure there are many game and toy companies out that will just let that wither and die. (/sarcasm)

You'd be surprised. It all depends on the going price, how the asset is packaged, what licenses and rights the buyer gets. What licenses and rights the buyer doesn't get. etc.

2. And the difference is?

GW still exists.

There are enough new players who get a whole lot of stuff and then lose interest to keep the second hand market for existing players and collectors happy. If you're prepared to wait for the inevitable sales after misguided birthday and christmas presents or even impulse buys then you can get the goodies at a more palatable price, though some disassembly may be required.
Having bought the GK power armor set recently I'll probably be selling half the contents I don't want online which will recover some of the money I paid for them and let someone else get some bits without having to buy a whole extra box.
The thing is is that there are tonnes of old basic models out there and the newer sets have loads of extra bits that can be used to update or upgrade these older models making parts sales a very good way to reduce the costs of the new stuff we do buy.

I really don't see where DW is abusing their customers. Price increases suck, but they happen. It's called economics. There are lots of crappy salespeople out there, just like there are crappy people out there. And I guess GW is at fault for being a business that wishes to make money, so when people show up to their sponsored tournaments with models from other companies, it a bit of a slap in the face.

Boycotting GW is a bit ridiculous, because it will eventually draw GW closer to either forcing more regulations at tournaments or more price increases. How many people have actually suffered at the hands of Games Workshop? Very few, I'd bet. Mostly, people don't want to come to terms that a strained global economy makes luxury items like wargames a larger strain on the wallet.

For those who whine that this is an expensive hobby, I hear playing solitaire is pretty cheap. $4 a deck...

Like an abused spouse, you will only be under the kosh while you allow it to continue.

If you aren't happy then you have stop buying GW products.

You have a choice.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
That's daft.

Is it? YOU may have enough stuff. a lot of people may have enough stuff. But right now you're the exception rather than the norm.

And as you play you'll always be the advertisement for the game and company regardless if you've never bought anything directly from them in years.

and frankly, You're no longer GW's market HBMC. They're after the new guys. The new guys who are not familiar with the old and are more willing to head on out to a GW store and buy the paint sprayer shaped like a flamer.

Im not advocating that you stop playing anyway. All I'm saying is that if you play, you'll be in GW's pocket one way or another.

and god forbid that GW gets the idea to get the "old guys" back into the fold anytime soon. Theyll end up invalidating whole armies or models by introducing a new edition the way theyre going.

GW Idea Guy: "You know how Wizards of the Coast had a D&D 3.5?..."

Bakerofish wrote:And as you play you'll always be the advertisement for the game and company...

To whom?

so you never play with new guys HBMC? you never tell anyone that you play 40k?

Bakerofish wrote:

Im not advocating that you stop playing anyway. All I'm saying is that if you play, you'll be in GW's pocket one way or another.

So vote Republican?

Bakerofish wrote:so you never play with new guys HBMC? you never tell anyone that you play 40k?

Oh, calm down, dude! He has the right to do what he wants, and he is exercising that right! No need to be agro about it.

_Tim?

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I really don't see where DW is abusing their customers. Price increases suck, but they happen. It's called economics. There are lots of crappy salespeople out there, just like there are crappy people out there. And I guess GW is at fault for being a business that wishes to make money, so when people show up to their sponsored tournaments with models from other companies, it a bit of a slap in the face.

Boycotting GW is a bit ridiculous, because it will eventually draw GW closer to either forcing more regulations at tournaments or more price increases. How many people have actually suffered at the hands of Games Workshop? Very few, I'd bet. Mostly, people don't want to come to terms that a strained global economy makes luxury items like wargames a larger strain on the wallet.

For those who whine that this is an expensive hobby, I hear playing solitaire is pretty cheap. $4 a deck...

Learn to love the lash.

Your post here is so full of fail that your not even making sense.

There is a bonified difference between making money and being intentionally deceitful. If a customer is unhappy, it's a customer thats going to say something about it.

You don't like it? Too bad, don't be a company man and tell them to go play solitaire. Your either being intentionally trollish, or intentionally ignorant about the issue.

As for all of the rest of your hot mess, What are you going on about?

If your sitting there saying that GW can do no wrong, and that you are perfectly fine with being shortchanged by of all things, a gaming company? YOU are sorely mistaken.

GW was the one that "Marketed" themselves as...

"Games Workshop Group PLC, a London Stock Exchange quoted company which was listed in 1994, has been in business for 30 years. At the core is a niche business – Games Workshop. This business designs, manufactures and markets a hobby based upon collecting, modelling, painting and tabletop gaming with model soldiers (the “Hobby”). The Games Workshop business makes the vast majority of the sales and profits of the Group. "

Now how far they want to take that, that remains to be seen, but as you so eliquently ignored the fact that as a "Luxury item" that GW makes it's money off of SELLING said luxury item, well YOU put two and two together.

No Bucks, no Buck Rodgers.

People buy directly from GW?? Why? Thats like going to an insurance salesman and going "I want to see plans that are exactly equal in quality but I only want to buy the MOST expensive one"