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Delephont wrote:My biggest fear is for companies like Corvus Belli, etc...whose main line products still rely on metal. Will they be forced to turn to resin (or god forbid plastic) in a bid to keep up with industry fashions, or will they simply be pushed out of the market as their material choice relegates their product as undesirable?
So what do you guys think? Where will these trends in material usage take us? is the future bright or are we seeing a change for the worse?
People buy miniatures for the aethetics, or the functionality as a gaming piece, or the conversion possibilities. I don't know anyone who collects minis based on material composition. Once paint is slapped on, that part is irrelevant. Resin will likely become more common because of cost, availablitity and ease of assembly. Cheaper shipping costs may factor in for companies. All of the reasons are practical. "Industry fashions" sounds like a marketing trend meant to move product without any real benefit, but I don't see that.
Now I've heard the argument that people will miss the weight of metals, but I doubt many people will actively avoid minis based on that criteria.
People aren't buying Infinity because they are metal. They won't stop buying them because they are not resin. There are lots of reasons for buying the minis, and their dynamic poses, high attention to detail and unique aethetic will trump casting material everytime. Do you think Infinity will be shunned because they are a few ounces heavier?
So where do you see a pessimistic future?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/30 20:02:34
Mastiff wrote: People buy miniatures for the aethetics, or the functionality as a gaming piece, or the conversion possibilities. I don't know anyone who collects minis based on material composition. Once paint is slapped on, that part is irrelevant. Resin will likely become more common because of cost, availablitity and ease of assembly. Cheaper shipping costs may factor in for companies. All of the reasons are practical.
Now there's an argument that people will miss the weight of metals, but I doubt many people will actively avoid minis based on that criteria.
People aren't buying Infinity because they are metal. They won't stop buying them because they are not resin. There are lots of reasons for buying the minis, and their dynamic poses, high attention to detail and unique aethetic will trump casting material everytime. Do you think Infinity will be shunned because they are a few ounces heavier?
So where do you see a pessimistic future?
Well, firstly, there are a couple of posts on this thread where people have stated that the material used for the miniature IS a factor in whether they will buy or not. However, I see the basis for your point, and for me personally, I agree. The miniature sculpt comes first, and the material a distant second. I've never been troubled by the use of metal, or felt that I'm missing something by not having my glue adhere immediately or that I have to pin something....but that's me, others seem to feel differently.
I don't necessarily see a pessimistic future, I'm simply raising a discussion point based on current events.....I'm raising questions to generate that discussion, that's all.
I have seen that people have stated they avoid metal, but I suspect they are like me; they avoid buying metal when there is an alternative. I will always convert my own plastic minis for my space wolves army rather than use a metal mini to fill a slot. I still have lots of the original metal terminators, scouts and command squads that I will never use because they are a smaller scale than the plastics, are a pain to convert, and don't hold paint as well. I even recently replaced the metal parts on my LR Crusader with plastic when the sprue came available. That said, I bought the the metal space wolf rune priest because the quality of the sculpting and the pose overcame my usual metal resistance.
More to the point, I buy metal Malifaux and Infinity models without hesitation, because there is no plastic/resin alternative. People who see their minis for the first time will usually see painted versions before deciding to buy them anyways. Their web sites and commercial packaging all show the painted pieces. I suspect that by the time potential consumers have made the decision that the models are interesting and worth buying, they are not going to change their mind when they find out the composition.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2011/05/30 20:24:41
I just wanted to open up a discussion about how people feel metal will be regarded in the future (in respect to wargaming).
While there is considerable doubt to the effectiveness of GWs move to resin, it has to be acknowledged that this material is here to stay within the hobby. Add to this companies like PP and Mantic, and boutique ranges like Kingdom Death, Studio McVey....and old faithfuls like FW or Scibor et al....and you have quite a few places where resin is THE material of use.
The veterans among us will possibly always have a place in their hearts for metal, but what about the new generations of gamers....when they see a company producing metal miniatures, will they be impressed by the material as a novelty, or will they see it as "old fashioned" and something to be avoided?
My biggest fear is for companies like Corvus Belli, etc...whose main line products still rely on metal. Will they be forced to turn to resin (or god forbid plastic) in a bid to keep up with industry fashions, or will they simply be pushed out of the market as their material choice relegates their product as undesirable?
So what do you guys think? Where will these trends in material usage take us? is the future bright or are we seeing a change for the worse?
Depends on the company.
GW's Finecost is the new kid on the block, and it has come out of the gate stumbling down the track like a fat drunk. They are not leading anything in this new medium, and in fact have put themselves at a disadvantage based on the sheer amount of .... disproportionate advertising for such a substandard product.
As to the other companies? They are going to continue to produce thier products in the same way that has given them a leg up and continued to work for them.
Resin, is a really touchy medium to work with on a good day, you want to start mass producing something in it, you quicly realize how much of a dog of a medium it really is. The thing about it though is that it is consistant. You figure out the bugs and bells and whistles, you master the techniques and can produce very high quality stuff at a fraction of the cost of something like polymer plastics.
As we see the process refined, and the chemistry gets tweaked a bit more, the material that we see in the resin, being mixed in with some of that polymer plastic is going to be a good thing, especially when you can start cranking out a mass production of figures at a minimum cost, with a high detail. (What Finecast, really was supposed to be.)
WHO that is that is going to be doing it will be the new kid companies, such as McVey, Privateer, and up and coming ma and pa stores. ( Ultraforge comes to mind, but those Corvus Bells, the PP's, and the Mantics can be close or first runner ups, especially when your talking the price of a pound of metal, and the cost of fifty pounds of polyurithene, or resin based polyplastic, or whatever material that you can get the EXACT same result that you can out of the casting in metal.) GW is too far behind the times and living on lost laurals to be a leader, anymore. They have Space Marines. Thats it. Not much you can do with a space marine. Even after 100 different varients, at the end of the day, your still a one trick pony.
Bottom line result, is that you are looking for the best result, at a good price. What GW did was commendable in scope of trying to cut a few dollars, but in thier bit to be the "be all and end all", look what they are losing in the attempt. When you've already seen companies do the thing and not try to come out like a 400 lb gorrilla, and swing on the Empire State building.
I see the exact thing that Mongoose pulled with GW's attempt at trying to be the "BE ALL END ALL". They thought too highly of themselves, and tried to oversell an overinflated ego with a lot of talk, and no efforts. They could have done better by holding with making those finecast figures out of the same grey polyplastic that they make thier other ranges out of, and just weaned off of the metal, even so much as selling metal figs through mail order, or through specialist games.
At least then, they could have cranked out 50 dollar boxes of standard cookie cutter armies, and made something that people could across the board have as a standard of quality.
Mongoose tried to step up thier game and come out with a bunch of ranges of prepainted shlock, that pretty much was marketed like the customer base was a bunch of peons that didn't know what they were talking about when they started rallying against the failed efforts. They ended up spilling thier lunch and loseing thier fanbase to the point where they ran away from the minis business, and stuck to second hand and third hand products.
GW customers are conditioned for a higher level of quality, even though they know that they are going to have to pay you for it. With the new range, they gave that quality up for the sake of quantity. heck, they might as well sell these at the dollar store with the issues of quality that they have now.
Best thing that it will do is to drive away the base from GW only, and spread them out to the herds of other game companies out there. Worst thing it will do is to degrade the whole of the GW games range to the point where no one wants to play them anymore, and we start seeing half price sales, as they shelve the tabletop games, and go to FF for the "GW Hobby."
Independents will more or less keep doing what they are doing. They can afford to.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/30 22:26:29
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
The metal-to-resin switch is a very handy one for GW. It allows them to construct a narrative of themselves as trailblazing pioneers of miniaturedom, as opposed to all the benighted savages who still cling to crude, outmoded pewter.
Agamemnon2 wrote:The metal-to-resin switch is a very handy one for GW. It allows them to construct a narrative of themselves as trailblazing pioneers of miniaturedom, as opposed to all the benighted savages who still cling to crude, outmoded pewter.
GW could sculpt from a dog turd and charge £100 per model and still have the ego to consider themselves pioneers of miniaturedom, wouldn't change the fact your still paying allot of money for a pile of turd
I think metal figures will be around for a long time to come.
GW may not be around so long if this new finecast project does not make money. Or perhaps they will go back to metal if their resin quality issues dont sort themselves out.
I keep remembering Rackham, and what happened to them.
Time will tell.
I'm kinda hoping that resin is just a medium term stop-gap while GW transition more of their models to polystyrene.
The size and complexity of many models like the Hive Tyrant and Hive Guard is the reason why they do not work well in metal.
It should be possible to combine several models into one sprue frame for injection moulding, however the injection moulds are designed and made using a different process to metal moulds.
It isn't necessarily possible to take your metal masters and turn them into injection moulds.
The number of new moulds to make would be prohibitive in a short time. In the long term I hope they will rework a lot of models for polystyrene.
Agamemnon2 wrote:The metal-to-resin switch is a very handy one for GW. It allows them to construct a narrative of themselves as trailblazing pioneers of miniaturedom, as opposed to all the benighted savages who still cling to crude, outmoded pewter.
In a way your statement sums up my "fear". Theres so many noobs out there who suck up what-ever PR advertising gunk GW puts out, that if the "community" as a whole isn't careful, what was "PR goo" quickly becomes FACT.
Delephont wrote:Well, firstly, there are a couple of posts on this thread where people have stated that the material used for the miniature IS a factor in whether they will buy or not.
And this is very likely to be the defining factor - is there a genuinely strong preference either way from the consumer base?
I don't know about everyone but for me it depends on several factors.
I definitely don't like large metal models and prefer polystyrene for ease of assembly and lower weight.
I am pretty happy with metal infantry and cavalry in 28mm. I'm not that fussed about poseability since most historical ranges have a variety of poses anyway. OTOH I am happy with the GW plastics as I'm not too fussed about fantastic detail in mass figures.
I acknowledge the ease of construction of Finecast large models such as the Hive Tyrant, which has been converted over from metal, but it is now too expensive for me to want to buy.
Price trumps all for me. I don't particularly like working with metal or metal/plastic hybrid kits and in some cases its a downright pain (Tyrant Guard, Gargoyles, LRC spring immediately to mind) but if the price is right, then I would be more than willing to forgo my preference.
In an ideal world, everything would be plastic but that clearly isn't going to be a workable situation.
Does the consumer base as a whole exert a material preference? I'm not so sure. I suspect a large portion of GW's consumer base are either new to the hobby or new to GW and so don't really have much of a clue as to the relative advantages and disadvantages of each material and so don't really care what material is presented to them; to clarify, I don't think it affects sales in that way. I do think that GW have used the advancement of tech to their advantage in the case of Finecast. I think it has bugger all to do with increasing detail and ease of construction and everything to do with being a good way to lower production costs whilst simultaneously increasing price.
This.
Price is one of my main motivators. If it wasn't, I'd still be buying GW.
Interestingly, it was the rising cost of GW plastics that drove me back into other brands of metal figures, and in the process made me rediscover how much I liked metal figs. I still like the convertability of plastic, but like metal figs just as much, though for different reasons.
Resin, metal, plastic, whatever, if the price is right, I'll make it work. The way things stand now, metal is getting most of my $, and -for reasons stated throughout this thread- this will likely continue for quite some time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/06/01 19:41:12
What shocked and surprised me, however, was that the torso section of the model was in.....resin!
Why Andrea have done this I don't know. I have a lot of 54mm scale models now, and ones with larger torsos than this, and they have all been metal.....so I wonder if this "trend" is already starting to take shape? Companies that until recently have been happy to produce full metal minis or mini ranges and now looking at resin....I wonder why?
Parts or even whole showcase miniatures have been resin for years. AFAIK most of these japanese Anime or Manga miniatures are resin, but I might be misinformed there.
Resin is hardly new. Most manufacturers won't even notice finecast, since they simply don't compete in the same range.
