Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello Peeps

I just wanted to open up a discussion about how people feel metal will be regarded in the future (in respect to wargaming).

While there is considerable doubt to the effectiveness of GWs move to resin, it has to be acknowledged that this material is here to stay within the hobby. Add to this companies like PP and Mantic, and boutique ranges like Kingdom Death, Studio McVey....and old faithfuls like FW or Scibor et al....and you have quite a few places where resin is THE material of use.

The veterans among us will possibly always have a place in their hearts for metal, but what about the new generations of gamers....when they see a company producing metal miniatures, will they be impressed by the material as a novelty, or will they see it as "old fashioned" and something to be avoided?

My biggest fear is for companies like Corvus Belli, etc...whose main line products still rely on metal. Will they be forced to turn to resin (or god forbid plastic) in a bid to keep up with industry fashions, or will they simply be pushed out of the market as their material choice relegates their product as undesirable?

So what do you guys think? Where will these trends in material usage take us? is the future bright or are we seeing a change for the worse?

All I know is I won't be missing the shiny mono-pose doorstops!

Plastic/resins can be a awesome thing check my Alkemy review on dakka articles, they can be 100% bubble free, almost no noticeable mouldlines, super sharp and resistant, well designed and miniatures cutted off sprues ready to assemble.

Plastics can be awesome just check spacehulk these are by far the most well detailed plastics, thin parts everywere and quite sturdy.

Metals can be awesome also just check most of manufacturers today that cast on griffin etc.

What I'm saying is that switching one for another is not a bad thing if it saves money and dont be fooled to think that finecast standarts is what you get if you have to switch from metal to resin... those did not set a standart and are in level with the worst of the worst casts outhere.

I see the future of miniatures like hybrids for smaller companies were smaller miniatures and scales remain metal and bigger stuff goes resin I think thats the best compromise for wargamming miniatures specially if you dont have a FAT budget to go on plastics.

I'm a miniature prostitute I like all materials as long as they are professionally done.

Delephont wrote:While there is considerable doubt to the effectiveness of GWs move to resin, it has to be acknowledged that this material is here to stay within the hobby. Add to this companies like PP and Mantic, and boutique ranges like Kingdom Death, Studio McVey....and old faithfuls like FW or Scibor et al....and you have quite a few places where resin is THE material of use.

At least for McVey and Privateer, I wouldn't precisely call resin the medium of choice. For the former, only limited run collector's pieces are cast in resin, while the rest are metal, and in the case of the latter, they only have obscenely large pieces in resin, while the rest is primarily metal with a select few kits in plastic.

Ok, maybe my point is being lost.....ignoring the semantics regarding individual companies strategy towards the use of resin, and the potential quality issues....we can't ignore the rising tendancy in the use of resin material.

Whether we like it or not GW will act as a trend setter, with a large portion of future gamers coming from a GW background.....my question is simple; will metal miniatures, by way of industry fashion / standards become a thing of the past? or could metal become a novel material for ultra specialist boutique brands where premium costs are expected and paid....thus relegating resin or plastic as the common / cheap standard of miniature material?

Is it rising though? Hasn't resin been used as a medium for years within miniature gaming? Aren't we only talking about it now because of Failcost?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Is it rising though? Hasn't resin been used as a medium for years within miniature gaming? Aren't we only talking about it now because of Failcost?

Certainly, I think Finecast will be the catalyst that drives the trends in this industry. Given the coverage GW has, and the exposure it's products recieve, I think it will come down to customer expectations (in regards to material).

In short, because of GW, people new to the hobby will expect miniatures to be either plastic or resin....in a few years, could it be that when Timmy goes to his FLGS and sees a metal miniature in a blister pack, he'll avoid it thinking it's something of lower quality?

I mean, GW has even managed to do this from an I.P. perspective, how many times have you heard people say Aliens has copied GW?!? I've even heard a person say that the ideas for DUNE were stolen from GW's I.P.....can you believe it??!? ....so the fact that GW can effect the trends in the wargaming industry (for me at least) are not in question.

I dont know I think the public will set the trend rather then the company... remenber rackham prepainted switch? A couple years ago many said prepainted undetailed plastics was the future of wargamming, Look at that now.

Resin is probably the easiest and cheapest way for a guy alone in his garage to start up casting some sculpts and that alone will make it a popular choice... will it be the only viable material in future? Nah I think metals still have a big role ahead of them and unless plastic manufaturing gets to be very very cheap it will prevail for many years ahead IMO because no one has a magic ball to see the future

Its a small market, not many customers so small oriented biz can keep on pushing with metals.

I've never liked metal models and much prefer resin... when it is done well anyway.

SilverMK2 wrote:I've never liked metal models and much prefer resin... when it is done well anyway.

Ok....

Delephont wrote:Ok....

I like to be able to easily cut and alter models - metal is too hard to alter without destroying much of the actual model. Plus they are usually much harder to balance (I like action poses ).

SilverMK2 wrote:

Delephont wrote:Ok....

I like to be able to easily cut and alter models - metal is too hard to alter without destroying much of the actual model. Plus they are usually much harder to balance (I like action poses ).

Sorry, I wasn't being rude, I just couldn't see where your comment had any bearing on the topic.

I was hoping the discussion wouldn't go down the same well trodden path of metal vs resin, or how good or bad GW Finecast range is.

I don't see other companies following any kind of resin trends to be honest, metal and plastic have been around much longer and most companies would rather sway towards plastics for most items.

a company like warlord for example I can't see them going for resin characters and troops, in all likelyhood they would stick to metal for characters, plastics/metals for troops, and good quality resin for the vehicles, especially after the epic fail GW has made with failcast.

and even if they did with the quality they produce with the vehicles they make you know any resin characters they do with be costed properly and casted properly.

and I don't see new generations of gamers going gaga for resin, they learn by seeing what the old generation do and by what they say, and if the old generation give a thumbs up to metal and plastic and a thumbs down to GW quality resin, they'll sway to the correct product.

only problem with failcast of course is that the old generation are not welcome in store to show the new generation this and so they are stuck thinking GW can make no mistakes.

Delephont wrote:[Sorry, I wasn't being rude, I just couldn't see where your comment had any bearing on the topic.

I was stating my own personal dislike of metal models.

I was hoping the discussion wouldn't go down the same well trodden path of metal vs resin

Isn't that kind of the entire point of the thread? How well metal stack up against other mediums?

or how good or bad GW Finecast range is.

Well I wasn't making any comments about Finecast, or any other specific metal, plastic or resin ranges. I personally don't like metal models, and of the two, I would prefer models to be made in resin as I find it easier to work and play with.

I don't think metals will go the way of the dodo just yet.

It is still easier to cast small parts in metal than resin (especially long and narrow ones). Some companies still do resin and metal hybrids (resin for the bulk, metal for the details.) and unless you are dealing in the quantities that GW deals in, plastics are still just not cost effective.

I'm old school and still like my metals. I never had any health issues with the lead-alloy ones (which were never pure lead anyway, as it won't HOLD the detail, that's what the tin is there for) but I never licked the paint off the walls as a kid, either.

If the gaming companies go metal free, It'll just stop me buying their stuff. By that time, I'll have such a large legacy collection that scrap dealers will burgle me.

There are two strands to this discussion, that I can see - GW's use of metals and everyone else.

Firstly, I think GW's decision to stop producing in metal is part of their ongoing cost cutting drive. I think it has less to do with wanting better quality than GW claim; quite simply, they can squeeze more profit from each individual sale of Finecast than they can from the same mini done in metal. Factor in the price fluctuations in metal and it makes sense for them to do this. The GW of the current moment is all about the profit - nothing else matters to them. All this guff about switching away from metal to provide a better quality etc is really just a smokescreen for being able to add a price rise while still cutting production costs. I don't agree with it but it is good business, providing sales don't suffer.

Other companies will continue to cast in metal because it cheaper than investing in the tech to produce in plastic plus the ongoing costs of having to finance injection moulding moulds, which are pricey. For a start up or small miniature company, this is key because they can get going quickly and relatively cheaply, price fluctuations in metal notwithstanding.

SilverMK2 wrote:

I was hoping the discussion wouldn't go down the same well trodden path of metal vs resin

Isn't that kind of the entire point of the thread? How well metal stack up against other mediums?

No, the question was whether metal has a future in the wargaming industry with a lot of companies appearing to turn to resin as their material of choice. It's all in the first post.

That does relate to the question though - is the customer base going to be exerting pressure on the manufacturers to retain metal or to switch to resin? Or are we not especially bothered?

I think that the majority of gamers and modellers that have worked with both will not express a preference towards metal so there is no pressure to keep producing metal.
ETA, GW's introduction of resin is going to go a long way towards increasing acceptance of resin - currently, many gamers have never worked with it.

As such, given the rising costs of metal compared to resin and the pressure of health and safety on businesses (can you really justify the increased risk of working with metal when there's a safer alternative?) will lead a trend towards resin.

Scott-S6 wrote:That does relate to the question though - is the customer base going to be exerting pressure on the manufacturers to retain metal or to switch to resin? Or are we not especially bothered?

I think that the majority of gamers and modellers that have worked with both will not express a preference towards metal so there is no pressure to keep producing metal.

As such, given the rising costs of metal compared to resin and the pressure of health and safety on businesses (can you really justify the increased risk of working with metal when there's a safer alternative?) will lead a trend towards resin.

Thank you

filbert wrote:Other companies will continue to cast in metal because it cheaper than investing in the tech to produce in plastic plus the ongoing costs of having to finance injection moulding moulds, which are pricey. For a start up or small miniature company, this is key because they can get going quickly and relatively cheaply, price fluctuations in metal notwithstanding.

Costs of producing moulds for resin and metal are pretty similar. You'll notice that most recent start-ups are producing in resin rather than metal.

filbert wrote: Other companies will continue to cast in metal because it cheaper than investing in the tech to produce in plastic plus the ongoing costs of having to finance injection moulding moulds, which are pricey. For a start up or small miniature company, this is key because they can get going quickly and relatively cheaply, price fluctuations in metal notwithstanding.

But how does that model stack up alongside companies like Scibor and Micro Art Studio, who seem to favour resin as their material for mass production.....it was only recently that Studio McVey started producing in metal, as start up they were using resin....

When you say price rises notwithstanding, isn't this a major factor that could drive companies away from metal, a good example are the recent price hikes by Pig Iron, how long can companies that already have a very small percentage of the market hope to compete when their prices are so high in comparrison to other "market leaders"

(I'm obviously using this as an example and projecting into an unknow future...I can't believe there will be a time when Pig Iron charges more than say, GW)

Something else to consider, casting metal requires a considerably greater initial investment in terms of equipment, safety equipment, filtration & extraction, etc.

There may also be considerations with regards to insurance.

1 - Metal remains the best/cheapest way to produce a moderate amount of figures (more than 100, less than 10,000).
2- There are dozens of companies out there working with metal and I don't expect that to change any time soon.
3 - Outside of the GW hobby, plastics are viewed as an inferior product. A large segment of figure buyers will continue to demand metal for some time to come.

I think alot of this depends on how finecast improves. For smaller casters of non-boutique products, there is a real dependability with metal.

-Molds that don't have to be replaced
-Casts that if well laid out are very reliable
-Standard fixed production processes make it fairly easy to outsource the actual production of the product to external casters.

Boutique companies charging a high price for high-end product, and smaller casters with limited run figures will probably stick with resin. However, for mid-priced miniatures producers, I'm not sure that at this point there is much advantage in switching to a less reliable, more labor intensive, less standardized material.

For example, I don't see Hasslefree switching over to resin for most of their production. The only way I see Plasti-resin gaining wider traction is if they get the process refined to the point where we see almost none of the issues that have so far been the norm, including bubbles. Even then, It's hard to see Plasti-Resin pushing out metal entirely for the kind of runs that RanTheCid mentions.

Both metal and resin can be easily cast at home for small projects. You need to take sensible precautions regarding heat, chemicals and fumes.

Once you go to a larger volume of production, and more complicated pieces, you need a spin-casting machine for metal and a vacuum machine for resin. Metal can be cast more quickly than resin as the hardening time is less.

GW are operating at an industrial scale for a lot of their kits, which is why they use polystyrene injection moulding. It is a couple of orders of magnitude more expensive than spincasting to set up, so it isn't suitable for anything except high volume production.

So, it seems that the majority feel that the size of the operations will dictate what material is suitable for that company...which I think, personally, is fair.

Taking the point further though, if companies like GW (which we can all agree, is the well spring of most new hobbyists) do successfully make the transition to resin (or what-ever hybrid they are using) don't you think that people will get used to the "ease of working" with the medium....to the point where they may "look down their nose" at the thought of buying metal...?

So while it may be the best option for small start ups and certain operational profiles (companies like Corvus Belli etc) will the potential lack of sales drive them to either change or be considered dinosaurs to their markets....dinosaurs = extinct....eventually.

Metal is fine as long as you don't want to convert it.

Most wargamers don't convert their models because they are intended to be ranked up in similar poses and it's a pain in the butt to convert 200 Greek Hoplites just for the sake of uniqueness.

Many wargame figure companies provide the same figure in multiple poses, even in 15mm. See Corvus Belli for an example of that. This was not so common 20 years ago but it is now.

The range of fantasy and SF figures for characters is huge.

Another advantage of metal for smaller companies is that offcuts and bad castings are easily recycled.

Delephont wrote:So, it seems that the majority feel that the size of the operations will dictate what material is suitable for that company...which I think, personally, is fair.

Taking the point further though, if companies like GW (which we can all agree, is the well spring of most new hobbyists) do successfully make the transition to resin (or what-ever hybrid they are using) don't you think that people will get used to the "ease of working" with the medium....to the point where they may "look down their nose" at the thought of buying metal...?

So while it may be the best option for small start ups and certain operational profiles (companies like Corvus Belli etc) will the potential lack of sales drive them to either change or be considered dinosaurs to their markets....dinosaurs = extinct....eventually.

I'm more worried if this quality downgrade will be accepted by uninformed customers and if it will spread to other companies... some people consider bubbles already acceptable wich is not!

I dont see 15mm in other material than metals and 28mm should be metal for the most part but when things get bigger then resins become a valid option... not because GW flooded the market with a resinplastic material but rather because the scale of miniatures and sales volumes dictate that small operations do have to keep things under tight controll and cant go wild with plastics hybrids investments.
I think GW is dissociating itself more from the general standart quality and moving to a lower level and that others just got a break and road cleared to explore the better quality/better price path.

Delephont wrote:So, it seems that the majority feel that the size of the operations will dictate what material is suitable for that company...which I think, personally, is fair.

Taking the point further though, if companies like GW (which we can all agree, is the well spring of most new hobbyists) do successfully make the transition to resin (or what-ever hybrid they are using) don't you think that people will get used to the "ease of working" with the medium....to the point where they may "look down their nose" at the thought of buying metal...?.

Yes to your first point.

To the second point, I think that metal will always have the cache of being shiny and valuable, even to those raised on GW finecast. Also, not all games have uints that are as customizable as GW units. For games with relatively fixed stats the need to convert just isn't there, and hobbyists can simply enjoy the beautly of a well sculpted mono-pose miniature

Kilkrazy wrote:Metal is fine as long as you don't want to convert it.

Most wargamers don't convert their models because they are intended to be ranked up in similar poses and it's a pain in the butt to convert 200 Greek Hoplites just for the sake of uniqueness.

This works in the inverse also. Warband size skirmish games with extremely few models are usually supported by ranges where every charachter and variation is covered by a produced model. For these ranges, ease of conversion isn't really necessary.

Also, consider that the GW conversion activity is driven largely by the fact that there are so many extra plastic bits floating about from GW plastic kits. Without a basis in bitz-heavy plastic kits, most other games don't foster conversion the way that GW does.

On a slightly separate tangent.
The future of 28mm mass combat is already plastic for massed troops. Plastic troops are cheap for the customer, and offer just enough customizability for those desiring models that aren't identical or a mix of a few poses. Once the near exclusive purview of 40k and WFB, they are quickly establishing footholds in the historical market through companies like Warlord, Perry and Wargames Factory. Most historical lines will likely also continue to use metal for leaders, specialists and figures that aren't needed in mass, because the economies of scale needed for plasti-resin just aren't there.

Delephont wrote:Taking the point further though, if companies like GW (which we can all agree, is the well spring of most new hobbyists) do successfully make the transition to resin (or what-ever hybrid they are using) don't you think that people will get used to the "ease of working" with the medium....to the point where they may "look down their nose" at the thought of buying metal...?

I've been avoiding metal models for years...