Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Kirika wrote:
Executioner - very expensive and was great with Mystics for anti deepstrike but thats gone now. They are also good when infantry is bunched up when a vehicle is destroyed. However if there are only 5 dudes this isn't as good as when people actually took bigger squads and there was more chaos around that you needed to kill plague marines.

The executioner is actually pretty good against AV12.

If your gonna shoot av12 with a heavy support choice do it with a Hydra costs much less.

You're missing his point. The Executioner has its strengths, but also happens to not be a slouch against vehicles either.

With cover being what it is I really dont like any of them. Even if you do hit direct on a squad of marines and they have cover youre not gonna kill that many. But i guess i would have to go with the battle tank due to cheapness. Ive been trying out the other variants but with no success. The punisher with pask and three heavy bolters is very fun though

I don't see why people think the Exterminator is so overpriced compared to the Hydra. Yes, it costs twice as much, so as a stationary platform, you get 3/4 as much Autocannon firepower per point. You get 3 hits on average opposed to 4 hits with Hydras, and half as many heavy bolter shots. You also lose the ability to ignore skimmer saves. However, you can ignore most weapons in the game, including those on outflankers, and you can't be destroyed by glancing hits (I'm assuming Hydras are squadroned).

As a mobile platform, however, you get a more firepower per point (3 Autocannon hits and a heavy bolter vs. 2 Autocannon hits). Who doesn't like to move their heavy weapons? If you can move to negate cover, the Exterminator has already made up for its loss of static shots by doubling the effectiveness of its hits. On top of this, you've still got a tough as nails tank, allowing you to move places that Hydras could not.

You forget that the hydra autocannons are also twin-linked. As a stationary platform, the Exterminator has exactly half of the firepower. 4 twin-linked autocannon shots instead of 8, and 3 heavy bolter shots instead of 6.

As a mobile platform, it has more firepower in the form of three BS3 heavy bolter shots.

The Exterminator's strength is that it's extremely hard to kill at range, unlike Hydra's, which seem to be held together with chinese paper and whispered secrets. The Exterminator is much more at home in a foot/hybrid list, where it's protected from enemy Melta.

The way I see the hydra/exterminator arguement is that the Exeys been around for donkeys years and while it works, it doesn't really seem to bring anything to the table. Autocannons can be fielded in abundance for anti-transport roles through-out the 'dex. Admittedly it's the best protected but I'd rather stick to the LRBT for the ordnance. I generally find the battle cannon more useful and robust than autocannons even though there are a fair few areas the autocannon would trumph the Battle cannon. That doesn't mean I need to take an Exey though, i've plenty kicking around in HWS and such. The hydra on the otherhand does bring something a little different. Its designed to drop skimmers. It also has an improved range. Even if I ran a mech list i'd run the hydra purely for more AV12 saturation. There are times an Exey would fair better than a pair of hydras but even if the hydra's last half as long as the Exey, they would have still been able to put out the same amount of firepower.

Grrr... You're right Omegus, I forgot the Hydra was TL.

I love my LRBT! With its battle canon, plasma cannons, and single las canon, it makes me smile each time every enemy troop tries(unsuccessfully) to crack it open. I have played it in 3 or so games, all without it taking any damage. Best tank all around. Not the best at tank killing, not the best at infantry slaughter, but can hold its own very well and dish out enough pain to make it worth it.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:I love my LRBT! With its battle canon, plasma cannons, and single las canon, it makes me smile each time every enemy troop tries(unsuccessfully) to crack it open. I have played it in 3 or so games, all without it taking any damage. Best tank all around. Not the best at tank killing, not the best at infantry slaughter, but can hold its own very well and dish out enough pain to make it worth it.

-cgmckenzie

Yes, this is very nice. For 205 points, you get a whole lot of tank.

I likes pie, so the lrbt and demolisher are my favorites. Heavy support is the only place in the dex you can get pie, so I can't see myself ever going for stuff like autocannon or even plasmacannon turrets when I can get those elsewhere. I voted for the LRBT: tough, good range, can kill anything in the game. I pretty much start each list with one, with hull LC.

I'd also argue against 'pie relies on the opponent to make mistakes to do damage'. Like was said above, opponents don't always have the luxury of 'spreading out'. There are so many in-game complications with this that to me the whole concept is theoryhammer at its most abstract. Of course spreading out minimizes the damage a direct hit on a squad will cause. Others mentioned cases where the enemy will be clustered, involving terrain and transports. I'd also mention close combat: I know I know you can't fire into close combat, but seriously, close combat sometimes gets hit in my games because I usually do not hesitate to unleash cannon shells right close to my lines. It's anecdotal, but the other day a stray shot killed 4 nobs in combat with my blob, i lost a guardsmen - nice!

On the other hand, if they are spreading a unit out, they have other problems. It makes it harder to avoid terrain, potentially slowing units up and giving me more time. It's also harder to take advantage of LoS-blocking terrain. It increases the chances that a scatter will still hit the unit. not to mention other spread out units; in fact, if the opponent is spreading out a large number of models, in any amount of units, the chances of scoring hits starts getting fairly certain. 'I spread out so it will only be a few' you say: well, at least I hit a few, and didn't miss all my shots with BS3! I'm not going to argue that pie doesn't miss, just that it's not a simple hit or miss. One tip I got off Dakka a long time ago is to target the centre of enemy formations, even if your specific target isn't exactly the one you want to hit. I follow that to a certain extent, especially in the opening when threats aren't right on top of me.

I'm not arguing pie doesn't miss - some shots really do hit nothing at all (or your own troops ), and too many of those is like points out the window!

Can someone mathhammer this for me?: 1/3 of scatter rolls hit. The radius of the pie is about 2.5" on mine (I think there's two sizes lol), and you subtract (bs)3 from the scatter, which can be from 2-12". So scatter results of 2, 3, 4 or 5 will mean some of the the pie is still over the hole, once corrected for BS. (2, 3, 4 or 5 are 4/11 possible results, but aren't some results more likely as they have more possibility of coming up?)

If someone who knew how to do statistics combined the chances of a direct hit (1/3) with the chances of getting a 2, 3, 4 or 5 on the scatter, what would they get? (Of course if the target is a vehicle it's the hole that matters most, and if the formation is big enough the low scatter matters less). I just want to see how close that gets to bs3's 50%. Thanks in advance!

I agree wholeheartedly with murdog's assessment. I'll add that not having at least one good ordnance gun in the army allows you enemy a lot of flexibility in movement and deployment. Good players can and do mitigate the effect of ordnance, but the actions they take to mitigate those effects aren't free, they'll have some cost in mobility or line of sight.

See, I haven't seen those costs, honestly. I mean, if what you're afraid of is blast templates and you're spreading out, you don't NEED cover, because the weapons are already doing such little damage. Plus, if only half the squad needs to be in cover, it's pretty easy to spread out in such a way where you both get cover and are displaced, even in smaller terrain pieces. Yes, spreading out means your opponent is less likely to miss entirely, but what does that matter when they're doing such little damage?

This is one of those things where it's easy to look at the best case scenario, and then sound the trumpets full blast. Against good opponents, though, those best case scenarios are so unlikely, it's scarcely worth considering them.

And even then, the best cases are often not that good. I mean, let's say you bust open a transport, and the guys are bunched up in the footprint. You've still got to hit them, which doesn't happen half the time, and then you've still got to wound them (1's happen, trust me), and then they get cover saves from their wreck. Average number of marines killed in this optimal situation by a single battlecannon shot is somewhere between 1 and 2. Seriously.

In the end, pie is so easy to stop, that you've got to be lucky or playing against someone foolish (or both) to get all that much out of it. On something that costs as much as a russ, it's only dubiously worth it.

Dean889 wrote: if you want an all around good tank, I would argue that the LRBT is the best in the entire of 40k. Cheap, tough and reliable.

agreed. As much as a "wise" opponent can mitigate the damage of the pie plate, I'd like to meet the "wise" opponent who does with when their rhino blows, and they have to put 10 marines in its footprint. Even if it's 7 plague marines...well 1's 2's and 3's pop up more than the 1's to wound them.



Boom.

Jihallah wrote:I'd like to meet the "wise" opponent who does with when their rhino blows, and they have to put 10 marines in its footprint.

You've got a roughly 50% chance to hit, and cover reduces casualties by 50% (assuming they're not going to ground, or were pinned by the explosion).

8*.5*.84*.5 = 1.68

or, on average a marine and a half killed per battle cannon shot. Of course, you can always tweak this number up by assuming your opponent was grateful enough to put all 10 both in the rhino AND as packed in as close as possible so that you could hit all 10 of them, but you could also tweak it down by spreading out as much as possible inside the rhino's footprint, and adding things like going to ground.

In any case, the damage is underwhelming, to say the least.

Ehhhh...Ailaros, I respect your opinion but I really have to disagree...you also have to factor in range, grouping, how many turns the thing will get to fire, AP (4+ save versus 3+ or 2+ for Terminators? Not bad), etc.

Demolishers are very important in my meta. With the ubiquity of Whatever-Wing (Deathwing especially) in my metagame, now Grey Knights and Blood Angels, FnP Terminators are not really all that uncommon. If you really slug the unit well, they may be forced to put wounds on ICs which, if they fail them, goodnight sweet prince. It also functions as a nice multirole vehicle. It does a number on pretty much anything within 24". The only question is usually, "What's the most important thing they have? Because I probably want to drop this Demolisher cannon on it".

There are plenty of situations where you end up with bunched up enemies that are mostly independent of player skill:

- After successful enemy assaults against friendly vehicles (no consolidation)
- After an enemy transport explodes
- Funneling terrain
- After tank shocking the enemy unit
- Deep striking units that don't run
- Disembarking from pods usually makes it tough to spread out completely, and often you can target the pod to hit a bunch of enemies

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Demolishers are very important in my meta. With the ubiquity of Whatever-Wing (Deathwing especially) in my metagame, now Grey Knights and Blood Angels, FnP Terminators are not really all that uncommon.

How are your demolishers getting close to your opponent to shoot the main cannon and still surviving against meltaguns and powerfists?

Furthermore, demolishers are crappy against terminators, especially when they have storm shields. Half chance to hit 5 of them who then get a 3++ yields pretty terrible damage, for what you're spending on the demolisher.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
There are plenty of situations where you end up with bunched up enemies that are mostly independent of player skill:

- After successful enemy assaults against friendly vehicles (no consolidation)
- After an enemy transport explodes
- Funneling terrain
- After tank shocking the enemy unit
- Deep striking units that don't run
- Disembarking from pods usually makes it tough to spread out completely, and often you can target the pod to hit a bunch of enemies

- any player who assaults a vehicle right in front of a demolisher, and is concerned about what the demolisher can do to their troops has low player skill.
- the numbers have already been run on a wrecked transport, they're pretty lousy
- terrain management is part of player skill
- If your tank lands in the middle of them, you're not going to be able to target the thick of them. Otherwise, it's a player still error, yet again. Death or glory works great when you're carrying a meltagun. That, and against properly displaced troops, you're only clumping them SO far together.
- seriously, deepstriking without running? Player skill.
- You can disembark anywhere from a pod, including a place that's out of LOS, or gives cover.

You're saying that it's independent of player skill, but the only concrete examples you're giving is things based on player skill...

I'd say the demolisher is the bully of russes. it's big, mean, ill tempered, and heavy hitting. Bully.

The exterminators are good for flexibility, and a pair of them is like having the bash brothers on your side. they can harrass anything and make it hurt.

The executioner is nasty. Equipped right, (plasma sponsons, hull las) it is very heavy hitting.

The punisher is... meh. 20 shots is cool, but not enough oomph for my liking.

The regular russ is great when in concert wiht other regular russes. As a stand alone, a different variant might be better off.

LRMBT- Will ALWAYS get the job done, can threaten pretty much anything and 150 points a pop base, hell I would field nothing BUT these if I could make them a troops choice.

I also have a soft spot for the Executioner- horribly point inefficent, but god help those TEQ's who get in its way

And the Punisher. I like it. I often add Pask into it for my friendlys against my Ork friend to teach him that a KFF is worth it, esp when I field two just for a laugh.

Executioner with plasma sponsons except when it gets blown up early and then I feel like a moron.


Also on a side note you can still do the mystics thing right just make it from witchhunters? or am I a dirty cheating bastard

Ailaros wrote:- any player who assaults a vehicle right in front of a demolisher, and is concerned about what the demolisher can do to their troops has low player skill.
- the numbers have already been run on a wrecked transport, they're pretty lousy
- terrain management is part of player skill
- If your tank lands in the middle of them, you're not going to be able to target the thick of them. Otherwise, it's a player still error, yet again. Death or glory works great when you're carrying a meltagun. That, and against properly displaced troops, you're only clumping them SO far together.
- seriously, deepstriking without running? Player skill.
- You can disembark anywhere from a pod, including a place that's out of LOS, or gives cover.

You're saying that it's independent of player skill, but the only concrete examples you're giving is things based on player skill...

Rather than critique your amusing definitions of player skill, how about I simply accept what you say, but than point out that if a single tank can so completely control the flow of the game, that alone can be used well by a skilled player.

I think this is what Polonius is getting at, but I'll throw in details here.

Ailaros wrote:
- any player who assaults a vehicle right in front of a demolisher, and is concerned about what the demolisher can do to their troops has low player skill.
- the numbers have already been run on a wrecked transport, they're pretty lousy
- terrain management is part of player skill
- If your tank lands in the middle of them, you're not going to be able to target the thick of them. Otherwise, it's a player still error, yet again. Death or glory works great when you're carrying a meltagun. That, and against properly displaced troops, you're only clumping them SO far together.
- seriously, deepstriking without running? Player skill.
- You can disembark anywhere from a pod, including a place that's out of LOS, or gives cover.

You're saying that it's independent of player skill, but the only concrete examples you're giving is things based on player skill...

1.) Assaulting a vehicles in Ordnance range is always going to require more complex decision making than assaulting a vehicle outside of Ordnance range. If you can make it into a trade (even for a few models) instead of a free kill, it's a good thing.
2.) You assume cover. I would put a bailed out squad in cover from Ordnance also. This might mean they are further away from their targets, or that they are now exposed to a different dangerous unit. With move and fire ordnance capabilities, LRs can threaten a huge amount of the board.
3.) Dealing with terrain with no worries about Ordnance is easier than dealing with terrain with Ordnance threats.
4.) You don't have to tank shock the meltagun. They can only DoG when the tank hits the model with the gun.
5.) Deep strikers are forced to decide on taking shots or running. If they run instead of taking shots, it's good for you. If they don't run, you make them pay.
6.) If they disembark out of LOS of your tank, they're farther from assaulting and have worse LOS for shooting. Good for you either way.

In each of these situations, the action eventually taken by the "skilled player" will almost always be suboptimal in an environment with Ordnance than without it because the more aggressive deployment or movement will be the one that subjects them to a 50% chance of a crippling shot. That is, unless you believe that all of the actions you propose for mitigating ordnance don't degrade the combat potential of the unit in any way.

that's well put biophysical.

I actually agree with the idea that large blast ordnance is generally overrated (and over costed). Even with partials counting as hits, ubiquitious cover and a highly mechanized environment really diminishes the value of a single pie plate.

That said, the two LR pie plates most often used (battle cannon and demolisher cannon) each bring something to the table. The battle cannon has ridiculous range, while the DC is quite good against large vehicles and units of terminators. Yes, stormshields reduce the punch, but S10 Ap2 is simply pretty good.

More to the point, your local environment will determine the value of leman russes. Areas with lots of land raiders usually leads to lots of melta, while razor spam frequently leads to S6-8 spam (lootas, scatter lasers, missile). In the later, AV 14 is far more durable at range.

The basic russ remains a solid choice for casual and some competitive play, but is outclassed in terms of fire power by many other options in the IG book. As I stated in my codex review, comparing the old LRBT in 4th edition to the current rules in 5th, the shift is pretty dramatic:
Pros:
AV 13 on the side
All partials count as hits
More favorable damage chart
Lumbering Behemoth!
More direct hits

Cons:
Increased cost
More and better cover saves
Fewer foot sloggers
Larger scatter distances (average of 4" but up to 9")
increased competition within the codex
Far more fragile to assault

Oh, just wait till 6th edition rolls along. I have no doubt cover saves will be toned down a tad, maybe even going back to to hit modifiers, and squadron rules will probably be improved (to make us buy MOAR vehicles).

Omegus wrote:Oh, just wait till 6th edition rolls along. I have no doubt cover saves will be toned down a tad, maybe even going back to to hit modifiers, and squadron rules will probably be improved (to make us buy MOAR vehicles).

next thing you're going to try to tell us they're going to raise their prices.....

I love and stand byy the Demolisher. i like the plain Jane Russ, but in alot of my local
games str 8/ AP 3 isn't enough. too many FNP/+2 saves.

I've been playing IG since 3rd edition and the LRBT seems hands-down the best all-comers choice. For 150pts you get a pie-plate, heavy bolter and AV14. Get two of these and have your opponent worry about taking them out while the rest of your army does its job with a lot incoming fire. Even with all the vehicles nowadays, no army is going to have nothing but AV-14 to shoot at. People forget that you get to roll 2dice and choose the highest for armor pen with ordinance weapons as well. You can sit these in the back of your DZ protecting a manticore or basilisk and just pop shots off anywhere on the map. And now with lumbering behemoth you can move and still keep shooting once the enemy does get into charge range. To any argument against taking at least one Leman russ variant, I have to ask are you taking all infantry or an insane amount of chimeras? because this tank is meant to soak up anti-tank shots that would otherwise cripple chimeras, hydras, and all the other AV-12 tanks in the codex. I've never been one to worry about the math hammer side of this game as the dice are never going to roll how you think they will, this tank brings much more to the table than a pie-plot as it will manipulate your opponent for the entire game until he takes it down.

Ashryu wrote:Executioner with plasma sponsons except when it gets blown up early and then I feel like a moron.


Also on a side note you can still do the mystics thing right just make it from witchhunters? or am I a dirty cheating bastard

You are a dirty cheater Witchhunters don't get mystics, they have different retinue options entirely.

I personally like the LRMBT, the exterminator, and the executioner. The plain old russ is still a fine tank, cheap and easy to fit in. The exterminator is basicly a high AV hydra, with the ability to take more support weapons for it (3 HB, and 4 TL autocannon shots is pretty good volume for a 170 pt AV 14 vehicle). The executioner is a bit expensive, but it is very effective. Up to 5 plasma cannon shots and a lascannon? Yeah, its been a bane of my marine armies for some time now.

The executioner is a powerhouse, no doubt about it. Stock LRBT is good as well. My current favourite is a pask-exterminator.

For all that, my vote still goes to the demolisher. For only 15pts over the stock version it gets higher strength, better AP and a 24" range that, taken together allow it to perform in ways that the others simply can't.

Pask actually seems a good fit for the Exterminator. Granted, it costs as much as an Executioner with plasma sponsons, but you get 4 TL autocannon shots, 9 heavy bolter shots, and 3 heavy stubber shots, all at BS4. That would make a serious impact against most infantry, if only through sheer weight of wounds.

Against vehicles, you basically have four missile launchers (that hit 90% of the time), and then a slew of S6 and S5 shots, so it's all but guaranteed to obliterate one light vehicle per turn.

Monstrous creatures fare no better, with an average of over 7 wounds against your typical T6 bug.