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ha i have so many of those stupid one piece plastics, i've tried so hard to paint them but there so damn boring.

I love the old Armorcast titans though. there is pretty much no detail work on them but somehow i just enjoy working on them so much flat smooth surface to work with

LunaHound wrote:There is detail ( confrontation minis )

and there is detail for the sake of bling bling ( GW )

anyone agree? disagree?

Disagree. Example: Dark Eldar models. GW has plenty of models that are just well detailed.

Smacks wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:Oh god, those old plastic terminators were the worst, with the clip on flamer!

Yes! those are the ones, the Storm Bolter just kind of melts into the body, and they lean forward at about a 40 degree angle lol. Though the worst marine sculpts IMO were the weird bug eyed Space Crusade marines. I'm super nostalgic about Space Crusade, but I still can't find any love for the pieces, they were just so awful.

I also really like the RTB01 marines, though I'm not sure why lol since they were technically even worse than the Space Crusade marines. Even the mouldings were bad, they have huge pits in their legs and stuff. Yet they still manage to have a certain charm about them that the others don't, maybe it's because they are modular, or because they look like cute little wombles.

Really, my RTB01's are great, almost no moldings and certainly little to no flash. I don't remember the pits in the legs, then again I assembled mine almost 20 years ago so my memory might be off.
I love pistol holsters, I don't know why. I also like to put purity seals on my minis when they do something good. I hate when they come with them molded on though. My marines are pretty old school, so I wrote slogans and stuff on them when they built up personalities. KIL KIL KIL. I loved the old space marines fluff.

Personally, i prefer my marines to be painted cleanly and without too much extraneous stuff on them, even though some may be useful if you are hard and fast wysiwyg, I have trouble painting special characters as I don't like all the fiddly lettering, seals, holsters,skulls,robes, banners....and so forth, not to say i don't like them on marines, I just believe i have trouble doing them justice when I paint, so therefore my marines are all pretty conforming and uniform looking, again the new models with all the extra bits is actually what stopped me from playing my first love!....space wolves! i just couldn't handle all the bits on the new models so i gave them away to a good friend of mine and started up my Marines Exemplars.


Nerdfest09

Smacks wrote:Yes! those are the ones, the Storm Bolter just kind of melts into the body, and they lean forward at about a 40 degree angle lol. Though the worst marine sculpts IMO were the weird bug eyed Space Crusade marines. I'm super nostalgic about Space Crusade, but I still can't find any love for the pieces, they were just so awful.

I also really like the RTB01 marines, though I'm not sure why lol since they were technically even worse than the Space Crusade marines. Even the mouldings were bad, they have huge pits in their legs and stuff. Yet they still manage to have a certain charm about them that the others don't, maybe it's because they are modular, or because they look like cute little wombles.

There's something about the Space Crusade marines that I love; I have a fair number of those as well but will probably never do anything with most of them (except use their conversion beamers with modern plastic marines ). I'm interested in how military uniforms change over time, and I like how the Space Crusade marines have "transitional" armor, i.e. Mk6 legs with Mk7 bodies/helmets and those funky vents on their backs which disappeared on the standard Mk7 marines. I consider this a "lost" era of armor while Mk7 was being tested and perfected and Mk6 phased out. Yes, I am Nerd, hear me roar.

I've always wanted to like the RTB01s, but they have issues. Oh, so many issues. Their legs are some of the worst looking things in toy soldier history. Most of mine are at least cast pretty well but some definitely have the leg pits. I use the shoulder pads/arms and backpacks for pre-heresy stuff, though, as I think the current FW and GW resin or plastic rimless/studded shoulder pads just look too modern and too similar to the current MK7 shoulders to be from a historical period. God, I'm a geek.

I like the Space Hulk terminators. You can easily scratch build various support weapons on the clip-on flamer. The models fit into the game squares on 25mm bases, and don't interfere with each other. When I got the metal terminators, I had to do a ton of cutting and filing to get the shoulder pads clean.

I like my models with detail. Space marine armour by nature is boring, it's clean and flat. These guys are hardened warriors of decades old, their armour is more sacred and older than they are so I love the fact that they can be adorned with all sorts of seals and bags and tabards. Even more so on my chaos marines. If I had Eldar it'd be different, I assume they'd never take anything they don't need into battle. However for my marines I like each one to be an individual holy engine of destruction, a walking church of death.

Tbh, all my marines have both types of grenades and then a knife at their waist. The Veterans are also dripping in purity seals, it's just how they roll.

Marines may be uniform to a point from training etc, but they are still individuals that are certainly not devoid of emotion. In real life for example, U.S. Marines, real marines, are issued a certain combination of equipment for whatever MOS or task they are about to undergo. Yes they wear largely the same amount of gear, but there are always guys carrying certain things that others do not. FURTHERMORE, the MOLLE vests that we use nowadays allow for the placement of pouches and equipment wherever the Marine or soldier desires them to be.

So the result is a uniform but unique appearance for every Marine. Yes there are certain standards for things, no they don't all have to be the same. If you are the m203 grenadier in a 4 man fire team you are going to be carrying 40mm grenade pouches when the rest of your team will not be. If the squad has a mortar, everyone spread loads it; some carry ammunition, one person carries the tripod, another the sight, another the actual tube. So basically what I'm trying to say here is that it's ok to have unique marines in terms of pouches or pistols or other stuff like that, because thats what guys do. Some soldiers wear shemaghs in Iraq, some don't. Some wear nomex flight gloves, some wear mechanix or hatch gloves. Some where Belleville boots, some wear Bates. Some guys prefer iron sights, some prefer Acogs or Aimpoints. This truly is all just another branch of small unit leadership. Command passes down from the top ranks that everyone is to be issued SPC plate carriers and a certain set of pouches. The supply officer for a specific unit cannot get a hold of enough Eagle industries frag pouches, but he has a surplus of SDS frag pouches, so he issues those as well. Sergeant johnson is big on safety so he makes sure everyone has a first aid kit pouch on his rig no matter what. Private schmuckatelly doesn't like the flaps on the mag pouches he was issued, so he goes to the tac gear store on base and buys some that he prefers and puts them on his rig. Etc. Etc...

SO, space marines would have the freedom to choose what pouches and gear they wear to an extent, as well as a certain level of personalization, because that is simply how militaries function. As far as the artwork like scrolls and seals go, thats part of the fluff so people who argue against them hold no grounds for it, and many people think it's cool. It's just like how guys will get motivational tattoos and the like in real life. This whole thread is really just lazy people not wanting to paint details. Well as a painter first and a gamer second, I say the details are not just what makes things interesting and pleasing to the eye, but also adds a certain degree of realism that someone who is huge history and military fan such as myself strives for.

Ultimately?

Detail doesn't bother me as long as it makes sense. The talk of purity seals has it spot on. Purity seals on the chest or the odd shoulder or even a weapon? Fine. Clearly the Chaplain would do that. Purity seals under armour plates, on the feet or as with the old Lemartes - at a 90 degree angle all along one side of the body....

Those are silly and pointless

DarkStarSabre wrote:Ultimately?

Detail doesn't bother me as long as it makes sense. The talk of purity seals has it spot on. Purity seals on the chest or the odd shoulder or even a weapon? Fine. Clearly the Chaplain would do that. Purity seals under armour plates, on the feet or as with the old Lemartes - at a 90 degree angle all along one side of the body....

Those are silly and pointless

Your post scared me ... alot.

It voiced 100% what i was typing at this very moment before i almost pressed sent.
( even the Lemartes )

The words you are looking for...

Hive Mind.....

DODcrazy wrote: This whole thread is really just lazy people not wanting to paint details.

Don't be so rude.




A simple Hasslefree miniature from Studio McVey.
http://www.studiomcvey.com/

For me, the only models in a space marine army to have details like purity seals or medals are the veterans... my basic tac marines HAVE to look the same, no details whatsoever...
For my next army (if it should be any kind of sm), I'll try to keep the armour & helmet pattern consistent through models with the same stats, that is: Mk 7 for everything that's not a sarge.... Purity seals, details, older armor just for models with veteran stat line

<--- active duty US Navy. Let me shed some light.

Just because the uniform is the same, doesn't mean what people carry on their person is the same. Our boarding team spends plenty of personal time and money tricking out their rig to their own personal needs/wants/comfort. Heck, I have a pair of SPARCO racing seatbelt pads on the shoulders of mine (it's fething uncomfortable, damn it!).

A dive knife here. A multi-tool there. Re-locate the mag holders to your thigh belt.

Whatever.

As long as your face is shaved, and you're getting the job done... Chief doesn't care.

Besides, different jobs within the team are going to require the carry of different gear. The breacher carries a breaching tool (it's an axe...), the boarding officer runs comms ... etc

DODcrazy wrote:Marines may be uniform to a point from training etc, but they are still individuals that are certainly not devoid of emotion. In real life for example, U.S. Marines, real marines, are issued a certain combination of equipment for whatever MOS or task they are about to undergo. Yes they wear largely the same amount of gear, but there are always guys carrying certain things that others do not. FURTHERMORE, the MOLLE vests that we use nowadays allow for the placement of pouches and equipment wherever the Marine or soldier desires them to be.

So the result is a uniform but unique appearance for every Marine. Yes there are certain standards for things, no they don't all have to be the same. If you are the m203 grenadier in a 4 man fire team you are going to be carrying 40mm grenade pouches when the rest of your team will not be. If the squad has a mortar, everyone spread loads it; some carry ammunition, one person carries the tripod, another the sight, another the actual tube. So basically what I'm trying to say here is that it's ok to have unique marines in terms of pouches or pistols or other stuff like that, because thats what guys do. Some soldiers wear shemaghs in Iraq, some don't. Some wear nomex flight gloves, some wear mechanix or hatch gloves. Some where Belleville boots, some wear Bates. Some guys prefer iron sights, some prefer Acogs or Aimpoints. This truly is all just another branch of small unit leadership. Command passes down from the top ranks that everyone is to be issued SPC plate carriers and a certain set of pouches. The supply officer for a specific unit cannot get a hold of enough Eagle industries frag pouches, but he has a surplus of SDS frag pouches, so he issues those as well. Sergeant johnson is big on safety so he makes sure everyone has a first aid kit pouch on his rig no matter what. Private schmuckatelly doesn't like the flaps on the mag pouches he was issued, so he goes to the tac gear store on base and buys some that he prefers and puts them on his rig. Etc. Etc...

SO, space marines would have the freedom to choose what pouches and gear they wear to an extent, as well as a certain level of personalization, because that is simply how militaries function. As far as the artwork like scrolls and seals go, thats part of the fluff so people who argue against them hold no grounds for it, and many people think it's cool. It's just like how guys will get motivational tattoos and the like in real life. This whole thread is really just lazy people not wanting to paint details. Well as a painter first and a gamer second, I say the details are not just what makes things interesting and pleasing to the eye, but also adds a certain degree of realism that someone who is huge history and military fan such as myself strives for.

Wow, your knowledge of military minutiae is really impressive compared to your social skills.

Raptor wrote:

DODcrazy wrote:Marines may be uniform to a point from training etc, but they are still individuals that are certainly not devoid of emotion. In real life for example, U.S. Marines, real marines, are issued a certain combination of equipment for whatever MOS or task they are about to undergo. Yes they wear largely the same amount of gear, but there are always guys carrying certain things that others do not. FURTHERMORE, the MOLLE vests that we use nowadays allow for the placement of pouches and equipment wherever the Marine or soldier desires them to be.

So the result is a uniform but unique appearance for every Marine. Yes there are certain standards for things, no they don't all have to be the same. If you are the m203 grenadier in a 4 man fire team you are going to be carrying 40mm grenade pouches when the rest of your team will not be. If the squad has a mortar, everyone spread loads it; some carry ammunition, one person carries the tripod, another the sight, another the actual tube. So basically what I'm trying to say here is that it's ok to have unique marines in terms of pouches or pistols or other stuff like that, because thats what guys do. Some soldiers wear shemaghs in Iraq, some don't. Some wear nomex flight gloves, some wear mechanix or hatch gloves. Some where Belleville boots, some wear Bates. Some guys prefer iron sights, some prefer Acogs or Aimpoints. This truly is all just another branch of small unit leadership. Command passes down from the top ranks that everyone is to be issued SPC plate carriers and a certain set of pouches. The supply officer for a specific unit cannot get a hold of enough Eagle industries frag pouches, but he has a surplus of SDS frag pouches, so he issues those as well. Sergeant johnson is big on safety so he makes sure everyone has a first aid kit pouch on his rig no matter what. Private schmuckatelly doesn't like the flaps on the mag pouches he was issued, so he goes to the tac gear store on base and buys some that he prefers and puts them on his rig. Etc. Etc...

SO, space marines would have the freedom to choose what pouches and gear they wear to an extent, as well as a certain level of personalization, because that is simply how militaries function. As far as the artwork like scrolls and seals go, thats part of the fluff so people who argue against them hold no grounds for it, and many people think it's cool. It's just like how guys will get motivational tattoos and the like in real life. This whole thread is really just lazy people not wanting to paint details. Well as a painter first and a gamer second, I say the details are not just what makes things interesting and pleasing to the eye, but also adds a certain degree of realism that someone who is huge history and military fan such as myself strives for.

Wow, your knowledge of military minutiae is really impressive compared to your social skills.

Compared to my social skills? Just because I have knowledge of a certain subject doesn't mean I lack social skills. I was presenting my opinion and providing a realistic representation to back it up.

DODcrazy wrote:Compared to my social skills? Just because I have knowledge of a certain subject doesn't mean I lack social skills. I was presenting my opinion and providing a realistic representation to back it up.

That's not what I was referring to. A person certainly might know about all sorts of army gloves and still have perfectly acceptable manners.

I was just piling on after Kilkrazy regarding your goofy comment about people being "too lazy" to paint details.

Although, to be honest, it did strike me as a little funny coming right after your dissertation on different kinds of military boots; some people with Asperger's syndrome or other autism spectrum disorders are veritable experts on niche topics while not possessing the social awareness to realize they're saying dumb/rude things in public.

Raptor wrote:

DODcrazy wrote:Compared to my social skills? Just because I have knowledge of a certain subject doesn't mean I lack social skills. I was presenting my opinion and providing a realistic representation to back it up.

That's not what I was referring to. A person certainly might know about all sorts of army gloves and still have perfectly acceptable manners.

I was just piling on after Kilkrazy regarding your goofy comment about people being "too lazy" to paint details.

Although, to be honest, it did strike me as a little funny coming right after your dissertation on different kinds of military boots; some people with Asperger's syndrome or other autism spectrum disorders are veritable experts on niche topics while not possessing the social awareness to realize they're saying dumb/rude things in public.

Now you're calling me autistic because I know a lot about a subject? I hate to see what you would call someone who graduated from college with a specific degree in a type of history or science that interests them. When I'm not playing 40k I'm an avid airsofter and firearm enthusiast and I've spent my whole life around people who are in Marines and Army.

I'm fully aware of what I was saying, and I said it because that's what I do; I speak my mind and don't candy coat things. And the truth is some people ARE too lazy to paint details. Just take a look around tournaments and there are always those 3 color people who don't respect or care about their models, all they want to do is roll dice and say they "beat" someone.

I will say that kilcrazy makes a good point with his picture, but I don't really think it relates to space marines, especially considering half the model is flesh which has many tones to it, whereas space marines as other people have said before is clean and flat.

So, now that you know my opinion on this thread, I will take my leave away from here with the person telling me I lack social skills and have autism, because anyone who has to say that is extremely ignorant.

Raptor wrote:

DODcrazy wrote:Compared to my social skills? Just because I have knowledge of a certain subject doesn't mean I lack social skills. I was presenting my opinion and providing a realistic representation to back it up.

That's not what I was referring to. A person certainly might know about all sorts of army gloves and still have perfectly acceptable manners.

I was just piling on after Kilkrazy regarding your goofy comment about people being "too lazy" to paint details.

Although, to be honest, it did strike me as a little funny coming right after your dissertation on different kinds of military boots; some people with Asperger's syndrome or other autism spectrum disorders are veritable experts on niche topics while not possessing the social awareness to realize they're saying dumb/rude things in public.

And you, dear raptor, appear to be suffering from the same thing, as you are dragging the point when there really is no need to.

--------------------------------

As for my own preference for detailed vs less detailed, its hard to say. I dont want to spend hours on end painting up the grunts of my army to an amazing standard, especially when they get removed from the table so quickly and easilly. The trouble is that once the quality of the details on the miniature go down, you can't upgrade it into an officer, hero or special character etc. It's a hard call. There is no way in the warp-blasted seven hells that I wan't my heroic/command/officer models to have less detail. They are some of the few centre-pieces that will remain on the board longer, and/or their relative rank to everyone else. The trouble becomes when you want to take a grunt, and awesomify him into an officer, heroic or command model... It's a hard call. I wan't less detail to worry about on my lowlies, but I also don't want to skimp out on them...

DODcrazy wrote:Now you're calling me autistic

No, I said I thought it was humorous because you made an awkwardly blunt and rude statement after such an eloquent treatise on your military interests. It reminded me of certain conditions in which people can wax poetic about some things but then not know when they're saying socially inept things. I did not say you had such a condition. It just dovetailed into the comment about social skills.

And I apologize, poda_t, if that's too much explanation for your tastes.

Now where were we?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think my original point was, basically, that Space Marines seem to becoming "busier" over time, whereas I preferred the older, sleeker models. Obviously a matter of personal opinion.

I didn't specify in the OP, but I was mainly thinking of marines. I think Eldar and a lot of other minis are exempt from such preference as their models thrive on more ornate detail.

I love how threads can never stay on topic any more....

anyway, I agree, SM are DEFINITELY becoming busy. Its not necessarily more detailed, but they are getting busy, and it's not necessarily tasteful. When you look at the dark angel upgrade sprues, the ravenwing parts aren't necesarilly of high quality, theyre thick, and sloped awkwardly. some of the details make the models more awkward looking rather than refine them one way or another. I prefer having one or two models with the extra stuff, becaue on a few models its detail. As you said it, once everyone is covered in crap from helm to boot... it looks busy, and busy doesnt mean good.....

same thing with the GK and BA, there is so much stuff on the model, when two or three changes differentiate it enough. I appreciate that GK are substantially different, but it's a little bit too much for my taste... i mean, they still look good, but making a command unit stand out without looking overdone is difficult.

GW models are detailed in silly ways. Not a single one of the "fighting men" is actually prepared for combat.

Soldiers carry stuff. Lots and lots of stuff. So much stuff it often crushes them.

IDF soldier's vest.



Marines in Afghanistan.



Where does this guy keep his ammo. Up his ass?






Less idiotic detail, more realistic detail, if you would be so kind, GW.

Speaking of the DA/RW sprues (and a lot of the new plastic marine bitz, for that matter) I also don't necessarily dig the new preponderance of sculpted shoulder pads with raised chapter symbols, logos, etc.

Back when GW first released the metal chapter-specific shoulder pads with sculpted symbols I thought they were so much cooler than decals and bought up a ton of them. I never used most of them. Now I think armor (of the personal and vehicular sorts) looks cooler with flat painted surfaces.

My rationale (this is getting pretty fluffy) is that in the grim darkness of the future when no one has time or resources for anything but fightin', it just seems unlikely that soldiers and their government would spend the effort to manufacture such gilded/sculpted equipment. Seems like they'd more likely just paint something badass on their gear or tank, etc.

If, on the other hand, you limit such artisanal stuff to your HQ/elites then I guess it makes sense. Or you could say these guys have had thousands of years and the resources of thousands of different worlds to hand-craft this stuff so everyone eventually should be so tricked out.

The GK I give a pass to since they're so uber-gothic and heavily funded they should have over-the-top gear. Better to scare off the deveels.

Nuggz: thats what were getting at. The stuff GW produces is busy, not detailed.

I also hate how everyone refers to the spacer marines power plant as a backpack. IT IS INCAPABLE OF BEIGN A STORAGE DEVICE!!! that thing is hard-mounted to his torso's back. A marine can't sling it off, reach it easilly etc. Its a minor detail....

and yet, in all the fluff, all the armor is overdone in its glam and flam. I never understood that. I've been writing short stories and such, and it only makes sense that every single space marine has a butt-ugly 50-times broken face, missing upwards of 12 teeth. I don't see how you can go through 200 years of combat and come out with only a scar down your brow/cheek. I don't have a problem with raised details, it just starts to look... idunno.... almost cheap when everyone has it. Don't the robes on their own point out that they're a dark angel force? do they really need to be covered in trinkets too? I mean they're all still Legiones Astartes... Chaos, now chaos is a different deal, but there should be a greater amount of homogeneity between the loyalists. GK excepted.

So... in line with the above two posts, my beef is also with details that are unrealistic. (i don't even bother using the pouches or grenades the marines come with. There is no-where to put them, and it only looks ridiculous)

Okay, I call it a backpack. But c'mon, it kinda looks like a backpack. A pack of POWER...maybe? Strapped to his back?

And I'm not sayin' I don't think GW should be making these fiddly ornate bitz, shoulder pads, etc. I think it's awesome to have all these plastic options. But on the metals (resins?) you often don't have a choice as removing the "detail" may be nearly impossible depending on the cast of the mini.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"C'mon" = C'Mark of Nurgle? Weird.

C=Chaos
M=Mark
O=of
N=Nurgle

makes sense...

Actually I agree, I just realized a problem, and that is when you start converting. Offhand, there are some models I would buy right away, except I hate the iconography on their pauldrons. GW now HAS the means to make the parts specially moulded so that if you want the icon on its own, you could glue it onto the pauldron. Or the knee-cap.... or the forehead... etc.

For instance, the chaplain is good looking, but the blood-droplet is unappealing for me. Its not an easy fix either for me because I'm not that skilled.

I guess its I just had an epiphany, and that is that so many people seem to have given up making their own stuff and taken up GW's stuff. Grey knight armor is good looking, but I want it without the grey-knight iconography..... catch my drift?

I Think I want more of my details to be OPTIONAL.... and that ladies and gentlemen, is my final answer to OP. I don't think I have much else to contribute...

Raptor wrote:
And I'm not sayin' I don't think GW should be making these fiddly ornate bitz, shoulder pads, etc. I think it's awesome to have all these plastic options. But on the metals (resins?) you often don't have a choice as removing the "detail" may be nearly impossible depending on the cast of the mini.

The point of the metals and resins is that you get a model that is very different. If you don't like all the geegaws on these models then don't buy them and just use the plastic ones. What wargear can you not get from the plastics that you need to buy expensive metals and resins?

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Less idiotic detail, more realistic detail, if you would be so kind, GW.

If you did that at GW's scale, you wouldn't be able to see the model.

If we could not insult each other, make cracks about people's social skills and make insulting comments about autism, it would be greatly appreciated. Comments like that don't add to any form of reasonable debate on the forum and do nothing but create bad feelings and antagonize people.

Much appreciated.

I'll agree to the raised-pattern pauldrons. Getting Death Company or Sang Guard are a bother for a guy who plays a custom successor chapter. There's never enough space to actually put my chapter symbol on it without filing, which I really don't like to do on otherwise nice shoulderpads.