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I use Ogryns on Marines. And they make them cry.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Crazed Dog wrote:I use 30 man blobs with a commissar with hidden powerfist, a medic, and 3 plasma guns. I play them as three 10 man squads I keep w/in 2" of each other (I use wooden movement trays if the opponent doesn't mind).

The medic helps vs. overheating and feel no pain. People complain they are like necrons lol. I use two squads like this with flamer platoon command squads in chimeras to give them 1st rank, 2nd rank.

So. Much. Wrong.

1) 3 10-man units is not a 30 man blob; not unless they are combined(as that is what a Blob is, combined squads)

2) Blobs cannot have hidden p-fists; only PCS Commissars even have access to P-fists, and PCSs cannot Combine(only Platoon infantry squads can combine).

3) Blobs cannot have Medics, again only PCS have the medi-pack upgrade available.

Note on #1: It seems you are saying you have 3 10-man movement trays that you keep within 2" and therefore are using the 3 trays simply for ease of movement, and that you are in fact using the 3 squads as a single blob unit. If so this is correct, but the other 2 points do remain valid as just plain wrong.

I ran a 30 man blob with a Lord Commisar P.fist and 3 sgt p.weapons.

Hulksmash wrote:I use Ogryns on Marines. And they make them cry.

Why would you want the ogryns to cry? Seems counterproductive to me...

-cgmckenzie

So just a question if i put a PCS in a blob with an infantry squad they both don't get FNP from the medic in the PCS.

Ogryns come as a shock to any marine player S5, T5 and 3 wounds, most marine units will have a hell of a time killing them.

Also, plasma vets in chimeras and tanks, any kind of tank with AP3 or less main gun will give him hell.

Yeah plasma gunners are currently my primary way to kill marines i put them in a kasrkin squad and deep strike in to cause havoc as the whole squad is ap3 to get past the marines save.

Ogrins are also quite nasty if you use them right.

I would suggest stormtroopers. Not for the combat but simply because as a guard player you have to sacrifice things. Let your guardsmen squads take the charge, then they will die but... behind them is a 10 man squad of stormtroopers. So that is 20 rapid fire shots from the hotshot lasguns. At AP3 that means most marines are dead in my opinion.

When i play guard im always prepared to make sarifices. Guard cannot hold off both flanks at once as their strength comes from numbers and they do not have the elite units to hold a flank on their own. You have to let one of your flanks die whilst shooting everything at the other flank, yes that means you the flank but you have killed you opponents entire other flank. Most players then split their forces to take the flank back so you just concentrate fire on the other flank now which is weaker. As a guard player you have to concentrate fire. Fire everything at the assaulting unit and kill it completely. The rest of his army should get bogged down for a few turns in yoru guard blobs whilst your tanks and elites slowly take out his assault units one by one.

Selafyne wrote:So just a question if i put a PCS in a blob with an infantry squad they both don't get FNP from the medic in the PCS.

You can't combine a PCS with an infantry squad. The PCS stays a separate unit, which makes the medic upgrade enormously foolish for them. Really, the upgrade as a whole is either overpriced, or should be an advisor for the CCS rather than an upgrade for one of the veterans. We'd see a lot more of them if you could still stick 4 plasmaguns and a pistol into the unit.


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The Acolyte wrote:Ogrins are also quite nasty if you use them right.

I would suggest stormtroopers. Not for the combat but simply because as a guard player you have to sacrifice things. Let your guardsmen squads take the charge, then they will die but... behind them is a 10 man squad of stormtroopers. So that is 20 rapid fire shots from the hotshot lasguns. At AP3 that means most marines are dead in my opinion.

Sadly, your opinion isn't supported by the facts. S3 will mean you won't kill that many marines (average 4-5 wounds for 20 shots), and even if you do, that Stormtrooper unit is now in the open and dead dead dead. Considering you cost the same (or more!) than the Space marines, but are way easier to kill, this is a very bad trade.

Can someone please clarify what a blob is exactly?

But yeah, I would say use melta squads, as mentioned someone on page one.

blob is just combined infantry squads. There is very little formation in them, they just blob their way across the battlefield.

-cgmckenzie

Blob squad is 2 or more infantry squads merged together using "combined squads" special rule. Adding commisar makes them re-roll stubborn. Commisar and sgts have power weapons. So now you have single organism, taht has 9+ pw attacks and 21+ wounds which stays in combat to the last drop of blood.

Thank you so much, I am def using that next time I play. Time to look into combined squads

Selafyne wrote:So just a question if i put a PCS in a blob with an infantry squad they both don't get FNP from the medic in the PCS.

PCS don't have the "combined squad" special rule. It's clearly listed in the "infantry squad" entry.

I agree with all the suggestions.PW Blobs will suck the life out of SM/MEQ,suicide Rough Riders with Hunting Lances are great and my particular favourite,Ogryns in a Chimera,roll up to a target/victim and let them go.

Interesting as i have never really looked into ogryns as they don't really suit my army.

I really want to try orgyns, but to get a squad of 3 you need to pay 60 USD. That seems a little much for me.

-cgmckenzie

Same they are really expensive metal models and i don't like the look of them.

I am looking into finding some WHFB ogres and converting them. Any suggestions?

-cgmckenzie

Yea, I want 2 squads of 'em, but living in the worst country ever it costs more around 150 USD... >.< For both

I have 8 Ogryns, I got them for about $80 via the internet. Not awesome but a hell of a lot better than $22.50 per model retail.

They are pretty good tarpits against, well, anything without power weapons, but they aren't actually very good at killing things. Marines vs. Ogryns is a bit of a slapfest, as the marines can't wound them, and the Ogryns cant hit em'.

I would use them more, but they are *insanely* overcosted at 40 points. If only I could use them in DKoK for the FnP...

Maybe use Ogre Kingdoms Leadbelchers or use cheaper Ogre Kingdoms Bulls but i still don't like the ogre look.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Which imperial armor has DKoK rules in.

Use ork boys and a bit of green stuff and different colors to scratch build em.

Ork boys would be too small for that, maybe nobs?

-cgmckenzie

Omegus wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Acolyte wrote:Ogrins are also quite nasty if you use them right.

I would suggest stormtroopers. Not for the combat but simply because as a guard player you have to sacrifice things. Let your guardsmen squads take the charge, then they will die but... behind them is a 10 man squad of stormtroopers. So that is 20 rapid fire shots from the hotshot lasguns. At AP3 that means most marines are dead in my opinion.

Sadly, your opinion isn't supported by the facts. S3 will mean you won't kill that many marines (average 4-5 wounds for 20 shots), and even if you do, that Stormtrooper unit is now in the open and dead dead dead. Considering you cost the same (or more!) than the Space marines, but are way easier to kill, this is a very bad trade.

The guardsmen normally kill at least one marine aswell before they die. I also went on to say further in the post that you shoot everything at them. Guard win with massed fire and sacrificing cheap troops. be that the massed fire of multiple squads or a few tanks. 20 shots are 13 hits and 5 wounds. So 5 dead marines less to hit you in combat. The marines don't have enough attacks to kill the whole squad of stormtroopers. Also stormtrooper sqauds are about half the cost of a full squad of marines.

Selafyne wrote:So just a question if i put a PCS in a blob with an infantry squad they both don't get FNP from the medic in the PCS.

cgmckenzie wrote:I really want to try orgyns, but to get a squad of 3 you need to pay 60 USD. That seems a little much for me.

-cgmckenzie

Ailaros scratch-built his, and made a guide.

http://ailarian.com/folera/articles/hobby/ogryn-1.html

I like the idea of Ogryn, but haven't run them yet. Usually guardsmen wound marines on 5s and get wounded on 3s. Ogryn reverse that, and that's just sweet justice. Just watch out for Str 10. . . ID isn't usually something IG worries about, but could really hurt.

odorofdeath wrote:I have 8 Ogryns, I got them for about $80 via the internet. Not awesome but a hell of a lot better than $22.50 per model retail.

They are pretty good tarpits against, well, anything without power weapons, but they aren't actually very good at killing things. Marines vs. Ogryns is a bit of a slapfest, as the marines can't wound them, and the Ogryns cant hit em'.

I would use them more, but they are *insanely* overcosted at 40 points. If only I could use them in DKoK for the FnP...

Please consider your arguments more thoroughly to avoid posting nonsense like this.

1.) The power weapons of the enemy don't mean a lot to an Ogryn, because his 5+ save is the least of his defenses. T5 and 3 wounds is good defense, even with no save allowed.
2.) Ogryns pack quite a punch with S5/S6 on the charge, and a good short-range gun. I'll run the numbers in a little bit to show you what they can do.
3.) Ogryns hit marines exactly as easily as marines hit Ogryns. Both are WS4, and have very roughly the same number of attacks per point, with the edge going to Ogryns.
4.) Ogryns hit really hard: See below.

5 Ogryns vs. 10 Tac Marines, Round 1:
-Ogryns fire ripper guns: 15*1/2*2/3*1/3 = 1.67 marines dead, we'll call it 1 for this simulation
-Ogryns charge (but marines swing first): 8*1/2*1/3*2/3 = 0.89 wounds, we'll call it 1
-Ogryns swing: 21*1/2*5/6*1/3 = 2.92, we'll call it 3, but with 9 wounds done, the powerfist will probably have to take a save
-Powerfist swings: 2*1/2*5/6 = 0.83 wounds, again we'll call it one.
-Final Result? 3:2 in the Ogryns favor. However, it's still 5 Ogryns, but 4 marines are down.

Round 2:
Marines swing: 5*1/2*1/3*2/3 = 0.56 wounds. We'll allocate the wound to the Bone'ead to the Bone'ead, keeping all the Ogryn swinging.
Ogryn swing: 16*1/2*2/3*1/3 = 1.78 wounds, we'll call it 2
Powerfist swings: 2*1/2*5/6 = 0.83 wounds, we'll call it 1, and the first Ogryn drops, while 6 marines are down.

This pattern keeps going, despite roughly equivalent numbers of wounds lost, the Ogryns are doing way more damage than the marines. If 2 marines die to the ripper gun salvo it's worse because the powerfist will probably be taking saves every combat round, and once he's most of the damage output for the tac squad.

But wait! How do they compare to equal points of respected thunderhammer assault terminators (5 vs. 5)? It basically goes like this:
Ripper gun kills 1 Terminator
Charging Ogryns kill ~1.5 terminators (we'll call it one, they have to take about 9 saves): That's 40% down before terminators even get to swing.
3 thunderhammers swing, getting 2-3 wounds (we'll call it 3). 2 go on Ogryns, one goes on the Bone'ead, nobody dies.
Ogryns swing, killing another terminator
Terminators kill an Ogryn, but there are only 2 left, 1 if they were a little unlucky, and the Ogryns are still at 80%.

Caveats:
In both scenarios, Ogryn are given ripper gun shots and the charge. I allowed for this advantageous position because almost every opponent had to close with the Guard in order to win. The timing advantage goes to the guard player, because if the enemy doesn't engage at close range, they'll just be shot apart. This is especially true in the case of the assault terminators, because they have no guns. If the Ogryn unit is forced to close against a unit (allowing that unit shots and the charge), they will obviously do more poorly, but this is pretty rare due to the makeup of the Guard army. Against assault terminators, the Ogryn will likely need some sort of leadership buff from a Regimental Standard or a nearby Lord Commissar, as they'll need to make some leadership tests to stay in the fight. With L7 and stubborn, they are more likely to make each test than to fail it, but it's not something you'd want to hang your hat on. This sort of leadership buff is easy to get into play however, and you'll have it in your army anyway, but it is a consideration.

Something that stands toe to toe with an Assault Terminator is not "insanely overpriced". You may not like Ogryns, or you may think they are a bit too expensive, but the math shows they get the job done against at least one of the touchstone close combat units in the game.

Ogryns really are not a good assault unit for Imperial Guard.

Five Ogryns can be expected to kill slightly less than 2 Marines a turn. This will go up to about 3 if they get the assault, which is unlikely.

10 Marines, assuming no assault options, will cause about 2 wounds to Ogryns in an assault. If they have Bolt Pistols and CCWs, this doubles to about 4 wounds. Not exactly a happy situation for your Close Combat "Specialists" to be in where they're tying combat against a non-specialized unit.

Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:10 Marines, assuming no assault options, will cause about 2 wounds to Ogryns in an assault. If they have Bolt Pistols and CCWs, this doubles to about 4 wounds. Not exactly a happy situation for your Close Combat "Specialists" to be in where they're tying combat against a non-specialized unit.

What you're missing in this assessment is that the marines have 10 wounds, and lose effectiveness for each one lost. 5 Ogryn have 15 wounds, and don't lose any effectiveness until they hit 5 wounds (assuming they can allocate to the Bone 'ead). So for the first couple rounds, the Ogryn will effectively be full strength, while the marines will be half dead and dealing half damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, a word of caution if you run Ogryn against terminators: GK terminators with hammers can be Str 10. Hammerhand gets applied before the 2x multipler, so they'll cause ID. That'll probably change the numbers a bit.

The point about GK terminators is a valid one, but not very concerning. GK's don't have stormshields, and so will die whimpering to IG shooting. Lightening Claw Terminators are also much tougher on Ogryns due to an increased number of attacks and higher initiative, but face the same lack of staying power vs. shooting. MEQs with extra attacks do cause some problems, but they are often more expensive, meaning fewer wounds, meaning a higher percentage of damage done by Ripper Guns.

On that note, I think Ripper Guns are too often ignored when considering Ogryn. Against glass hammer units, the Rippers will do nasty damage before close combat, and against tougher stuff, it's still helpful to kill one or two guys. Depending on the situation, they also give you a non-assault option. Plenty of times it's preferable to shoot and not assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:This will go up to about 3 if they get the assault, which is unlikely.

I spend a short paragraph explaining why Ogryns getting the assault was likely. You clearly disagree, what's your argument?

Byte wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Crazed Dog wrote:I use 30 man blobs with a commissar with hidden powerfist, a medic, and 3 plasma guns. I play them as three 10 man squads I keep w/in 2" of each other (I use wooden movement trays if the opponent doesn't mind).

The medic helps vs. overheating and feel no pain. People complain they are like necrons lol. I use two squads like this with flamer platoon command squads in chimeras to give them 1st rank, 2nd rank.

So. Much. Wrong.

1) 3 10-man units is not a 30 man blob; not unless they are combined(as that is what a Blob is, combined squads)

2) Blobs cannot have hidden p-fists; only PCS Commissars even have access to P-fists, and PCSs cannot Combine(only Platoon infantry squads can combine).

3) Blobs cannot have Medics, again only PCS have the medi-pack upgrade available.

Note on #1: It seems you are saying you have 3 10-man movement trays that you keep within 2" and therefore are using the 3 trays simply for ease of movement, and that you are in fact using the 3 squads as a single blob unit. If so this is correct, but the other 2 points do remain valid as just plain wrong.

I ran a 30 man blob with a Lord Commisar P.fist and 3 sgt p.weapons.

Then you still didn't have a hidden powerfist; you had a P-fist on an IC that could be singled out in combat and killed before he ever got the chance to strike.