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Pacific wrote:I still maintain that had the Squats been given the 'modern' 40k treatment (going from the Jes Goodwin sketches for example) they could have been something special. It's unfair to judge what were essentially rogue trader-era models against the kind of stuff they are producing today - after all, even the other lines back there can't really stand up to today's equivalents (with a few exceptions, perhaps the 1st edition aspect warriors).

I look at what the sculptors have created with the Dark Eldar range, and I'm genuinely excited about what they could do with a fresh concept (GW that is, Mantic have obviously yet to prove themselves in the sci-fi field).

I'm not saying anything about the models, or "what could have been" - I think the only reason they are percieved as being worthy of "bringing back" is because it is one of those annoying internet bandwagons that just won't die, rather than any actual love or interest in squats.

The designs look like they are based off of just a few (3?) body designs. Assuming this is the way Mantic are taking Warpaths minis we might see limited poses like the fantasy stuff.

I hope this assumption is not the case, not that the dwarf phyisque lends itself to much posability in plastic kits anyway.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
I have this wonderful image now of space dolphins riding the bow wake of Starcruisers.

I love that you state this when my wife wanted to watch Titan AE last night.

Just replace the Wake Angels with Space Dolphins.

Platuan4th wrote:I love that you state this when my wife wanted to watch Titan AE last night.

I've not seen that film for ages

SilverMK2 wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:I love that you state this when my wife wanted to watch Titan AE last night.

I've not seen that film for ages

I hadn't either. I'm amazed at how well the CGI and digital animation stand in comparison to today's work.

Am sure I have seen Titans AE but cannot remember a darn thing about it

Oh well it will be like watching it for the first time if I see it again.

SilverMK2 wrote:

Pacific wrote:I still maintain that had the Squats been given the 'modern' 40k treatment (going from the Jes Goodwin sketches for example) they could have been something special. It's unfair to judge what were essentially rogue trader-era models against the kind of stuff they are producing today - after all, even the other lines back there can't really stand up to today's equivalents (with a few exceptions, perhaps the 1st edition aspect warriors).

I look at what the sculptors have created with the Dark Eldar range, and I'm genuinely excited about what they could do with a fresh concept (GW that is, Mantic have obviously yet to prove themselves in the sci-fi field).

I'm not saying anything about the models, or "what could have been" - I think the only reason they are percieved as being worthy of "bringing back" is because it is one of those annoying internet bandwagons that just won't die, rather than any actual love or interest in squats.

Hmm that's an interesting thought. I had always assumed there was a rather large group of potential purchasers if GW (or another manufacturer for that matter) were to release some kind of 'dwarf in space' analogue. But I might well be wrong with that, worthy of a poll perhaps?

Pacific wrote:
Hmm that's an interesting thought. I had always assumed there was a rather large group of potential purchasers if GW (or another manufacturer for that matter) were to release some kind of 'dwarf in space' analogue. But I might well be wrong with that, worthy of a poll perhaps?

Honestly, I think Silver may be correct. I've only ever met 2 Squat players, but not met anyone who seriously ever said "I wish they'd bring the Squats back so I could play them". The only wishing for the Squats outside of the internet has always been "They should bring back the Squats. I wouldn't play them, but the option should be there..." style moments or playing on the internet meme. I think, like Silver, that most of the whole internet Squat thing has to do with the fact that they're denied to us more than anything.

Generally, people who actually want to play Squats/Space Dwarves make it a point to buy the old ones, convert them, or use other manufacturers and fit them in(either as Counts As or using a fandex).

Silver you can't just say that the people who say they want Squats back are jumping on a bandwagon. How do you know they are? How do you know they do not actually want them back?

feeder wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:
After all, I'm always hearing how useless the Squats were

They could be broken to the max. An entire army of autocannon/powerfist toting terminators backed up by dead hard pyskers casting vortex grenades and invincible forcefields all over the place.

Or basic units of 8 Squats, each one carrying a move-and-fire heavy bolter with a +1 on the to-hit roll back when the Heavy Bolter had Following Fire.

Or, squads of Terminator equivalents mounted on Bike equivalents.

Squats, if brought back today, would be as successful as GW decided to make them. Their success would be directly related to the quality of the miniatures, the competitiveness of the rules, and the quality of the fluff. This is no different than any other army that GW produces, new or otherwise. Take a look at the DE range; it was only a year ago that people on this very forum were advocating for the DE range to be "squatted;" today, the range is selling just fine. Heck, DE didn't even exist at all in the 40K universe until the 3rd ed starter box. Prior to the introduction of the Tau, there was absolutely no group of 40K players yammering for anime style knock-offs in the 40K universe, yet Tau have survived successfully for over a decade, now.

So, I'll repeat myself: Squats (just like any other army GW could produce) would succeed or die based upon GW's execution, not because of any perceived interest level on the internet.

And there is also a generation or two of players that may play Squats if someone produces them for a game.

Not saying that they will fly off the shelves, having heard what more experienced people have had to say.
Again from experience in aircraft modelling there is a lot of internet chat about how wonderful this or that subject would be and when it comes out the boxes just sit on the shop shelves.

The proof of the custard is in the flan flinging, so will be interesting to see what happens.

.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
The proof of the custard is in the flan flinging
.

Precis... Wait, what?

Well, it's not quite flinging flans, but we might be able to gauge that level of interest through a poll (at least among this limited section of the community):

Normally when I start a poll, I have the desire to go and crawl under a rock after half an hour because of the responses I get, so I thought I would run it through on this thread first (I hope you don't mind LukeWild82, don't mean to highjack the thread here - if you don't want this here, let me know and I will delete my post)

Poll Question: If GW were to release some kind of new 'Dwarf in Space' model range, would you buy it?

Main text: First point, this is not about Squats. There is as much chance of GW re-releasing that model range (in its previous, Rogue Trader-era conception) as there is of us getting RT style Slann, Zoats or Christmas Marines again. Think instead of the recent pictures of 'Warpath' style dwarves-in-space or even the older Jes Goodwin sketches that were leaked prior to the introduction of the Tau. I'm sure many of you will be familiar; high technology level, maybe with an admech twist in armour and weaponry style. A couple of those pictures are linked below, to give some of those who did not see them some idea.

So, presume for a moment that the 'Demiurg' accompany the next Tau Empire codex, and are a core option of the rulebook. Would you buy them?
(picture of Warpath/Jes Goodwin sketch here)

Poll options:
- Yes definitely, I have been dying for a new Dwarf-in-Space army since the Squats were squatted!
- Yes or no, if the sculpts and/or rules were of sufficient quality to warrant a purchase I would buy them.
- No, I am intrinsically opposed to any kind of dwarf-in-space concept in 40k.

So quite a simple poll - a single 'yes' and 'no' answer, for those who will or won't buy them regardless of quality of miniature, and one down the centre. Can anyone think of another option they would like to see in the poll?

I'm interested to see how many will vote 'no', and how much of that is on the basis of the dislike of the aggressive nerds who heckled Jervis Johnson about why the race had been removed from the game, and I think put so many of the design staff's backs up for so many years

And my dislike for Mantic grows....

As to the folks who seem to think that Squats are just a bandwagon to jump on that no one actually wants...

Note that both Bob Olley (Olley's Armies "Scrunts") and Kev White (Hasslefree "Grymn") have been sucessfull selling Space Dwarves. Neither line has sold the way a GW line might, but they must have sold well, because both lines have quite an extensive collection of Space Dwarves that have grown over the years.

Pacific wrote:Poll Question: If GW were to release some kind of new 'Dwarf in Space' model range, would you buy it?...

...Poll options:
- Yes definitely, I have been dying for a new Dwarf-in-Space army since the Squats were squatted!
- Yes or no, if the sculpts and/or rules were of sufficient quality to warrant a purchase I would buy them.
- No, I am intrinsically opposed to any kind of dwarf-in-space concept in 40k.

... Can anyone think of another option they would like to see in the poll?

I think you should add the option.
-GW squats would be lovely, but they'd be too expensive for me!

That's where I fall. I have no doubt that GW re-Squats would be wonderful, I just don't see myself paying GW prices for an army where I'm going to have to buy alot of figures. I might buy some to use as characters or a separate unit in a Mantic-based army, but certainly not a whole army's worth.

For me it is partially a $ issue with the current space dwarf options as well. I wasn't too fond of the Grymn asthetic and I just couldn't see dropping the necessary $ to make a whole army of Scrunts, which are a bit cheaper than GW, but by no means bargain priced. I'm hoping that Mantic's pricing will make it possible to have the medium-large Squat army that I've always wanted.

There is a slight problem with a poll that I can see Pacific, in that it still only confirms intentions to buy.

People may vote in good conscience that they will buy Squats, but when the time comes to part with the lucre, it may be a different story.

It may even be that some other gewjaw has sparkled into sight and taken the persons fancy.

Eilif wrote:As to the folks who seem to think that Squats are just a bandwagon to jump on that no one actually wants...

Note that both Bob Olley (Olley's Armies "Scrunts") and Kev White (Hasslefree "Grymn") have been successful selling Space Dwarves.

What are we defining as 'successful' here? Do we know the kinds of production numbers/volume of demand they have?

Because for small operations like that, I'd call turning a quarter percent of the production costs on a limited run 'successful'.

Neither line has sold the way a GW line might, but they must have sold well, because both lines have quite an extensive collection of Space Dwarves that have grown over the years.

So wait. They "must have sold well because both lines have quite an extensive collection of Space Dwarves that have grown over the years"?

So you don't really know if they've been successful in selling. You're assuming. Gotcha.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the by: that wasn't meant to be snarky or confrontational. I'd really like to know if they have the numbers somewhere to compare to the amount of "squat vocalists" we have here on Dakka.

They, as have been mentioned, seem to be more of a far vocal minority than a silent majority.

Kanluwen wrote:

Eilif wrote:Note that both Bob Olley (Olley's Armies "Scrunts") and Kev White (Hasslefree "Grymn") have been successful selling Space Dwarves.

What are we defining as 'successful' here? Do we know the kinds of production numbers/volume of demand they have?
Because for small operations like that, I'd call turning a quarter percent of the production costs on a limited run 'successful'.

Neither line has sold the way a GW line might, but they must have sold well, because both lines have quite an extensive collection of Space Dwarves that have grown over the years.

So wait. They "must have sold well because both lines have quite an extensive collection of Space Dwarves that have grown over the years"?
So you don't really know if they've been successful in selling. You're assuming. Gotcha.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the by: that wasn't meant to be snarky or confrontational. I'd really like to know if they have the numbers somewhere to compare to the amount of "squat vocalists" we have here on Dakka.
They, as have been mentioned, seem to be more of a far vocal minority than a silent majority.

If you don't want to be snarky or confrontational, consider dropping "Gotcha" from your e-vocabulary. A disclaimer does not mitigate rudeness.

As to the matter at hand...
You are of course right in that I'm am making assumptions. I don't have access to company books to make firm conclusions. It would be incorrect, however to think that my assumptions are not based on evidence, such that my assumptions very nearly qualify as deductions.

Using Hasslefree as an example, consider the following assumptions made from what we do know.
-Kev White makes his living sculpting and selling minaitures. Thus we can assume that he isn't consitently adding to lines that don't make money.
-Grymn have been around for several years. Thus we can assume that demand has existed over time, and we can know for sure that the figures are not -as you suggest- a "limited run".
-The Grymn line is added to with regularity. Thus we can assume that there is enough continued demand to justify continue expanding the line.
-The Grymn line is frequently praised and noted in forum and blogs outside of Dakka. Thus we can assume that the line has fans even beyond the "squat Vocalists...on Dakka" that you dismiss.

All this seems fair enough evidence that it is likely that there are greater numbers of Space Dwarf fans than you assume and -in the absence of GW squats- many of them have put their money down and purchased Space Dwarfs from other manufacturers.

Whether they would all buy GW Squats if they were re-released is another matter.

Eilif wrote:Whether they would all buy GW Squats if they were re-released is another matter.

... which is the point at hand. There is a difference to display or "slot in" models that you can add in to existing armies to add something different, and buying into an entire army (in terms of fluff and/or rules and/or models).

There are models from pretty much every range from every minatures company that I like - same as there is fluff and rule sets that I like... doesn't mean I am going to buy into them any more than someone saying "bring bk der sqwotz!!!!11111pi^7".

SilverMK2 wrote:

Eilif wrote:Whether they would all buy GW Squats if they were re-released is another matter.

... which is the point at hand. There is a difference to display or "slot in" models that you can add in to existing armies to add something different, and buying into an entire army (in terms of fluff and/or rules and/or models).
.

I'm not entirely sure there is much of a difference. Whether or not they are being used in 40k or other games, many folks who like the idea of space dwarves (and likely heard about them first as "squats") have voted with their wallets and bought them from other companies. I suspect that while many 40k-playing squat fans would buy new GW squats. Some of those that have gone to other games and mini-companies would return and some wouldn't.

Either way, we'll never know unless GW reboots Squats in some form. However, seeing how well Mantic Iron Fathers sell might give us some idea.

SilverMK2 wrote:
There are models from pretty much every range from every minatures company that I like - same as there is fluff and rule sets that I like... doesn't mean I am going to buy into them any more than someone saying "bring bk der sqwotz!!!!11111pi^7".

Why not?
I'm only half kidding here, but there are alot of folks who buy miniatures beyond those for the game they play most. I would venture to guess that most miniature gamers have more than just GW figures in their collection, and even those who only collect GW have figures from armies or other GW games that they don't play.

You seem to be mistaking what I am saying. There is a difference between a small range of models, or even individual models of a certain style (say, space dwarves) that you can buy as disply/collection models, or use to put in existing armies, and buying into an entire army, with possibly hundreds of figures, and possibly (probably) hundreds of pounds spent on it, plus however many hours spent painting and building them.

I mentioned that there are many mini companies out there who have models or fluff or rules that I like - if I had the time, money and space I would buy them. However, since I am reasonably average in terms of being a human being (ie I have a job and have to pay bills) I lack the time, space and money to buy whatever I want whenever I want.

Most people are in this boat and there are things that people really want that they can't afford (in terms of time, space and money) to get, regardless of what gaming system or model company produces it (or indeed, expanding out into other areas of consumer spending - I would love to have full surround sound on my TV, but I don't have the money or space for it, which means I am not going to get it).

Run a poll asking whether people want full surround sound on their TV and most people would say that "yes, I want full surround sound". Then compare that with the number of surround sound sets sold and discover that while many people say they want something, far fewer actually purchase it.

Hence while many people say they want space dwarves/squats, I think the number of people who will go on to purchase them will be comparatively very small. I also believe that the bandwagon brigade have significantly and artificially inflated the volume of the "we want space dwarves/squats" camp and I fear Mantic will discover it is more hot air than cold hard cash.

I look at it this way. Mantic is creating lines to match existing GW lines but at a lower price point, AND they are giving GW the finger by making lines that GW no longer supports (i.e. Chaos Dwarfs and Squats).

I know that some will point to the new FW Chaos Dwarfs and say that's support but they would be wrong because there are few people willing to shed $1000 or more to field an army that they may or may not be allowed to play. I can pay a couple of hundred for an army that I can use with the indie GT rulebook and many tournaments will allow it OR I can spend a thousand for a FW army....hmmmm which one will I do?

I'm pretty confident that the squats will sell. Most of the "internet bandwagon" arguments came up when mantic announced their Abbyssal Dwarves and these turned out to be one of their best selling ranges.

However there isn't much point getting into huge arguments until the ForgeFathers are released. Without seeing the models a lot of people will be unsure of the decisions and even then polls are extremely unreliable.

What we can say is that mantic isn't hurting the hobby and the ability to get good quality, cheap miniatures is a positive for a lot of people. Sure they aren't the only people making minatures for evil or space dwarves but many of those other miniatures are too expensive or limited to make and army from.

Personally I'm thankful for what they have done. It isn't perfect but it's much better than nothing.

Dwarves in WFB remain one of the most popular armies, and seem to have a very loyal set of followers. Is there any reason to believe that at least part of that fanbase won't be transferable to the 40k universe if a sound job is made of the background, models and rules?

I think at least part of the problem is that the moment anyone mentions 'dwarf' in 40k it gets a reply of 'SQUATSlololol', yet a future release would be nothing like that old conception. Also, I think it was one of the first things the 'hate brigade' cottoned onto in the distant past of GW (JJ admitting that their removal was callous, and actually changed company policy subsequently) - so in that sense I think SIlverMK2 is right in that some people just used the removal of Squats as a reason to be angry towards GW, rather than any concern over the loss of the army itself. A lot of those people not having Squat armies in the first place.

But, I am one of I am sure at least a fair number of hobbyists who collected Squats in both 40k and epic (the latter I think was their far better incarnation). While I would hate for that old 40k conception to come back again now (I defend my Avatar on the grounds I have used it since the late 90's), I'm pretty sure the GW design boys would make a good job of a new concept and models. Let's face it, I think if they were even half as good as the new Dark Eldar I think they would be a popular choice for a lot of people!

I think it's a smart idea to do "squats" and here's why:

In order to get their own futuristic game going they would need to have at least 2 factors but more likely 3-4. The investment in time and money would be considerable - not to mention risky should the game not take off. By creating (or recreating) a faction that could be used in another game it will double the avenues of sales. And by doing "squats" they could also capture a potentially small but fervent minority of players.