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Thank you for Mantic for bringing back Squats . . .erm I mean Space Dwarfs or whatever your going to call them. You had me at Space!!

Absolutely. +1 on this!

On a side note, just completely my own supposition, but I wonder if Mantic are doing space dwarves because they know that GW have got Demiurg coming along also?
They have yet to release a range that hasn't been a cheaper price alternative of something which exists in a GW game (so far, just WFB)

Really, really wish they were not doing squats. I was hoping for a slightly more serious game.

But they are not squats! I admit the concept of a dwarf can be slightly amusing in any fantasy setting, but I think they will be far, far removed from the cigar-chomping guys on trikes with quilted jackets they were back in the 90's in 40k. The concept drawings looked great in fact.

I just don't like dwarves outside of a "traditional" fantasy setting (and even then I am not a huge fan - no pun intended).

The pictures we have so far? Armoured beards? No thanks.

Just not interested in the slightest.

So you're saying the beard should be unprotected? ^_^

Just joking. I'm the opposite, I have always loved dwarves in whichever fantasy setting they inhabit. Fond memories of overlord airships and landtrains in epic and the like

So, in that sense I am glad they have gone with the technical/articifer element in Warpath (and hope that the 40k Demiurg follow a similar path, if/when they come).

It's dwarves in space with power armour and trikes: Squats.

Pacific wrote:On a side note, just completely my own supposition, but I wonder if Mantic are doing space dwarves because they know that GW have got Demiurg coming along also?

How would Mantic know what GW are planning? We don't even know what's coming out in the next month or two. Anyway, GW have had the Demiurg concept for a while but largely undeveloped and they've shown no interest in taking it further. GW can't have the monopoly on something they haven't made in 20 years.

After all, I'm always hearing how useless the Squats were so if that's true GW won't be going near them again and frankly there are not many armies of Space Dwarves out there. The only I can think of is Bob Olley's range for which they were only available for a short period before the moulds were bought by someone who is yet to produce anything with them.

How would Mantic know what GW are planning?

Both Mantic and GW are based in Nottingham, and a lot of the Mantic guys (including Alessio Calvatore and Jake Thornton) are ex-GW guys. A lot of the design guys are still mates with each other even after they go their separate ways in a different company, and I'm sure are still in contact. GW's stuff is planned years in advance, in terms of design of both rules and miniatures, and for the most part anyone within the industry knows well in advance what things are coming down the pipeline.

So, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to suppose Mantic are pre-empting GW, but like I said complete supposition on my part

Dwarves in space is a much older concept than 40K.

Hasslefree do a nice range of space dwarves though not as extensive as Olley's Armies.

Examples please? I've seen some great space dwarves -Olley, simtac (also by olley), harlequin and others- but I haven't seen anything older than Rogue Trader.

SilverMK2 wrote:Really, really wish they were not doing squats. I was hoping for a slightly more serious game.

I'm with you on this, even though the full details are not out yet, I think it's clear that Mantic won't be producing my next sci-fi game. I believe in their blind quest to undo GW they've missed a great opportunity to do something great.

I fear that all we have to look forward to from mantic, is a cheap NOT-WH40K knock off, created to do nothing more than to encourage us to buy cheap proxies for WH40K! While this is great for most people, I guess, for me, it won't solve the issue of broken rules, codex creep or the fact that I'd still be held to ransom by GW by virtue of the fact that I still need their rules and fluff!!

I really wish mantic all the best, their products will mean that many hobbyists can continue to enjoy 40K (to some extent) without so great a financial burden.

Delephont wrote:I fear that all we have to look forward to from mantic, is a cheap NOT-WH40K knock off, created to do nothing more than to encourage us to buy cheap proxies for WH40K! While this is great for most people, I guess, for me, it won't solve the issue of broken rules, codex creep or the fact that I'd still be held to ransom by GW by virtue of the fact that I still need their rules and fluff!!

A small part of me wants this space dwarf line to fail horribly just so people can see that very few people actually wanted squats, it was just people jumping on an internet band wagon.

Ehh I am no huge fan of the not-squats but they look good for what they are. Their vehicles and weapons look great at least. If their heads aren't cast into their bodies it will be easier to make something unique out of them.
I think it's a smart place to start for mantic. Not-squats are the most 40k-sh army that are not direct rip-offs of a successful 40k line. Mantic have placed themselves in a similar vein of science-fantasy as 40k without committing themselves to making not-tyrands, not-sororitas, etc. Hopefully we can see more unique ranges that can exist side by side rather than copies.
I'm really confused at what mantic are trying for though. Do they want to make a better game so people can use their old 40k armies in it and maybe start new warpath armies? Or, are they looking to make models people will buy for 40k and just adding in game rules as a pure marketing tool?

Dais wrote: Mantic have placed themselves in a similar vein of science-fantasy as 40k

Write what you know.

Mantic has done (or is doing soon) 8 basic fantasy tropes for KoW:

Elves; Dark Elves; Dwarfs; Evil Dwarfs; Orcs; Goblins; Men; Undead

They have also announced there will be 2 additional races by the time the rulebook is officially published next year, but that these will be completely new and original factions.

I can see Warpath going the same way, starting with obvious fantasy cross-overs before introducing new stuff of their own. GW, of course, did the same thing, starting with Knights-in-Space, Dwarfs-in-Space, Elves-in-Space, etc before moving on to 'nids and Tau.

Mantic aren't re-inventing the wheel, but there are reasons why that never gets done

Chimera_Calvin wrote:They have also announced there will be 2 additional races by the time the rulebook is officially published next year, but that these will be completely new and original factions.

Which will probably end up being the totally original Nezumi and Saurial.

Power Armoured Jellyfish would be cool
For Sci fi obviously. It would be silly in Fantasy.

Must be tricky getting a good new race up and running.

First a serious question: I have only seen a few concept drawings have I missed something actual yet?

Secondly I am also rather disappointed with the direction Mantic are (have always been?) heading. One of the great aspects of this hobby is the originalitly that most most companies try to foster, even when doing a homage ala Hasslefree.

Mantic seem to be aiming at holes in the market rather than doing their own thing, as much as I would like more space dwarves (I have many ), I think that their sculpts will have to significantly step up.

Their (3 peice?) fantasy stuff ranked up behind a set of GW command figures is one thing, a fairly limited scifi line (will they go for seperate arms/heads?) where there is no other models to hide behind may not be good enough for me. But I wait with baited breath.

Nope it is still in early stages yet.

I would also like to have seen something radical from Mantic.
But it is understandable why they chose well known races to start with. Despite some disappointment expressed they are likely to sell.

Kicking off with new race would involve greater risk. This way they will sell to people who want Warptah minis and possibly people who feel GW are too expensive.
Aiming to fill gaps in the market is sound business practice.

Hopefully that will allow for some more unique stuff.
If when all the range is out there is nothing with a new flavour I will be a tad disappointed too

I see the same sorts of discussions about model kits. The reason why companies pump out Spitfires, Mustangs and Bf109's to kick off a range is because they will sell and make money available for expansion.
Then the more esoteric stuff can be made available.

IMHO it is far too early to criticise Mantics races and models when everything is still in development.
To be fair to Mantic we have every opportunity to make feelings known on their forums and on the BoW backstage pass.

I see what you are saying Chibi but I do not really see Squats being the "big seller". I appreciate that tinternetz are full of loads of Squat army players complaining of their loss back in the day but I just don't see it as being anywhere near as popular as a IG stand-in.

As to it being too early to criticize, Rubbish! This is the internet it is our right to complain as God intended us to!

Let the bandwagoning commence!

I completely agree notprop it is totally your right to critisize.

The only issue I have is right now most people and myself are happy/angry with complete speculation. All we have is a few concept drawings. These drawings look far beyond the quality of the models we have seen so far from Mantic so I do not think the models will REALLY look like them, but hopefully will carry on the progresion of much improved sculpts with every new release.

Obviously we know they are going to start with Forgefathers, i think we all agree thats a definate. Do we know anymore? I know there is probably more info from Beasts of War backstage thing but I have not heard/read anything yet. Is there another race confirmed for the release? We really don't know anything firm yet do we. I did not realise how strongly people felt for/against dwarves.

Howard A Treesong wrote:
After all, I'm always hearing how useless the Squats were

They could be broken to the max. An entire army of autocannon/powerfist toting terminators backed up by dead hard pyskers casting vortex grenades and invincible forcefields all over the place.

feeder wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:
After all, I'm always hearing how useless the Squats were

They could be broken to the max. An entire army of autocannon/powerfist toting terminators backed up by dead hard pyskers casting vortex grenades and invincible forcefields all over the place.

To be fair, there were alot of second edition armies that could be broken to the max. Between Allies, Dark Millienium and the creative use of wargear cards there were alot of ways to make terribly over-uber armies.

I wasn't entirely convinced that this would work out, until I saw these pictures.









Pure awesome.

On paper some of the guns look pants but the rest of it is good.

Of course models are no made of paper (for the most part) so I will wait and see.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Power Armoured Jellyfish would be cool

A sea race would be super!

Those new pics make me want to proxy a dwarf MEQ army! Wow, I love the design on those.

SilverMK2 wrote:
A small part of me wants this space dwarf line to fail horribly just so people can see that very few people actually wanted squats, it was just people jumping on an internet band wagon.

I still maintain that had the Squats been given the 'modern' 40k treatment (going from the Jes Goodwin sketches for example) they could have been something special. It's unfair to judge what were essentially rogue trader-era models against the kind of stuff they are producing today - after all, even the other lines back there can't really stand up to today's equivalents (with a few exceptions, perhaps the 1st edition aspect warriors).

I look at what the sculptors have created with the Dark Eldar range, and I'm genuinely excited about what they could do with a fresh concept (GW that is, Mantic have obviously yet to prove themselves in the sci-fi field).

Like the Space Dolphin
Cetaceans in Spaaaace!

Most "poular thing to do before you die" :
Spacewalk with dolphins!

I have this wonderful image now of space dolphins riding the bow wake of Starcruisers.