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Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Maybe this is the real reason for the switch to resin Silver.
The metal was interfering with the transmission of customer brain waves.

Warning: Please wear tin foil on head when working/playing with non metal GW products!

Where did you get yours from?

There undoubtably is a silent majority, but there is no logical reason to assume that their opinions of GW are any different from the vocal minority. Some love GW. Some hate GW. Some are indifferent. Some don't know any better.

I'm sort of surprised to hear GW assuming the silent majority all like their game though. Their business model of "Get the n00b money!" implies that they understand a lot of people stop buying their product as they get more familiar with it. Their whole business model is based around the silent majority at least losing enthusiasm for their product if not totally stopping purchases altogether. Hence the need to constantly recruit new players.

That implies to me that their chief objection to the vocal minority isn't that they are dissatisfied with GW products, as players becoming dissatisfied is an acceptable part of GW's business plan. Rather, they are concerned about the vocal minority's ability to sway n00b players into other products. It's not so much that GW thinks we are wrong, it's that they don't want future "followers" to find out about us. "Don't listen to the Internets, they're full of naughty people! Come into your local GW and buy your first starter set (and Citadel Glue, and Citadel clippers, and Citadel brushes, and Citadel paints..........."

The "Silent Majority" - yeah, yup, they exist.

From my regular gaming group, I read and post on dakka. One or two of the other guys might lurk, and very rarely post something. The rest, whatever. We're all adults, we've got some disposable income, and GW's business decisions don't impact our Friday night gaming considerably. We got finecast stuff, mostly out of curiosity, the day it came out, and none of us had anything we needed to return. Our biggest complaint is codex changes screwing over our older armies, and certainly nothing to do with pricing or rumours.

The people who play at the GW closest to my house, I'm not aware of any of them regularly posting on any forums. When I went in to pick up my finecast models, there were players buying, playing, and BSing in the store, just like they always have been, for the seven years I've been hitting that store now. They're mostly high school kids at that store, with a few college age, and they rotate. I don't know many of them, but they're always there.

At the Chicago bunker, there are regulars, both older and younger. I see familiar faces, both older and younger. I haven't really noticed much of a change, regardless of GWs past business decisions.

The most -aware- group are probably the AWC tournament participants, and even there, I'd reckon no more than half seem to follow much online activity, and those that do are more concerned with army builds and rules than they are with business moves.

Maybe people are driven away with each move. I'm not really noticing it in my area though. My friends who play less are playing less because their wives need their time, not because of anything GW did.

Honestly, of all the posters here, I trust Mikhaila's viewpoint more than anyone. He's got far more knowledge about what's going on in the GW business because he actually runs a gaming store. And he's expanding, and has repeatedly said the sky isn't falling... That's not being an online apologist, his livelihood depends, at least in part, on GW products selling at his store. The ranters are going rant, without any data or insight into why these decisions are made. They're always going to have the opinion that they know better than the professionals with the data...

I'm willing to bet there is a large percentage of people, even those who frequent forums and know about all the recent developments, who simply just don't care.

This is an expensive hobby. It's always been a relatively expensive hobby. Now it's gotten a little bit more expensive, but you kinda just take it on the chin.

Paul wrote:Well in my expirience anyone who dissagree with the negativeity round here are quickly shouted down, dismissed as "apologists" or "fanboy", or just ignored all together. There are probably allot of people on Dakka who don't have a problem and don't complain because they know its not worth it as it won't change anyones mind.

I fall into this group. I don't particularly have any problems with GW exactly. My lull in interest in the game has more to do with a recent move than any actions taken by Games Workshop. Also, this sums up my feelings on the RAWR GW IS THE SUCK! crowd pretty aptly:

Frazzled wrote:What issues. This is a game of toy soldiers, glorified over monopoly only in being more expensive and having much, much worse rules. most kids rightfully treat it as such. Its only in the land of crazed gamers that any of this matters. Your average geeky little Bobby only cares until he discovers Girlllz.

The "silent majority" GW refers to is probably the people that just play the game and don't get terribly emotionally invested in the minutia of the company that makes it.

Ravendove wrote:I'm willing to bet there is a large percentage of people, even those who frequent forums and know about all the recent developments, who simply just don't care.

Those same people most likely do what I do when that tired old rant starts up: unsubscribe from the thread. This isn't to say that there isn't valid criticism out there, but the same people constantly crying about it just gets monotonous.

Mikhaila knows a lot about how his shop is doing in his local environment. Mikhaila's shop is great. It's in a good location, with lots of space, great terrain and a wide selection of games and systems. He hosts tournaments with barbecues and so on. Altogether it is the kind of shop that we would all like near us. It's not surprising it is doing well.

All shops aren't like that.

To get an idea of how GW really is doing, you need to look at their annual financial reports as time series data.

Unfortunately I have major issues with how GW conducts their business, but do nothing because they are the only company that interests me in wargaming. I loathe forcing the great majority of PP models together in complex ways that make the model look dumb. Infinity and malifux's asthetics just dont wow me. And im not a historical person. Gw is really all I have that I like. So I just put up with it and adjust my spending and dealing accordingly.

The "Silent Majority" doesn't always have to refer to people off the internet. The fact of the matter is, while there are tons of people who hate GW, what a lot of people seem to forget is that there are a ton of people who still like GW.

Ugavine wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:b) just don't care. They pay for their plastic army men, and play the game. Maybe they'll grumble about the prices once in a while, but they just don't care enough to do anything else.

This. Nearly.
It's not that they don't care, it's that they are happy with the game.

Seriously, is no one here happy with Games Workshop games?

My mates and I are all pretty happy with Games Workshop games.

THIS

I post on here regularly and I'm aware of the issues people have with the game, but at the end of the day I like playing it. I'm certainly not an ignorant majority, I'm just a contented one.

A one man majority! That's pretty dire news for GW, then.

But you're right, I don't like the way GW act, but I still like the game.

htj wrote:A one man majority! That's pretty dire news for GW, then.

But you're right, I don't like the way GW act, but I still like the game.

Alll of the people on this site and the others that claim to "hate" GW still hand them their wallets.

So what does it matter? Wells and Kirby have already established that they can do whatever they want to you guys and you will say "thank you, can I have another box of Spedz Mahreenz?"

They've done nothing to me. Really. They've changed prices, changed rules, whatever, but I've only ever bought things I've wanted to, played editions I've wanted to. I don't feel hard done by. No-one's got a gun to my head, after all. I play other wargames, buy other companies miniatures, but I still enjoy GW games. Still like their miniatures.

I used to be one of the silent majority, now I seem to get my ass shot off every time I suggest anything here on Dakka. I'm absolutely horrified about how GW is messing up and yet when I suggest something the responses I get range from "are you stupid" to questioning my grammar. Now I'm not making ridiculous suggestions, but there are too many who are too ready to say it won't work, too ready to troll, to not take it seriously. Look sometimes at how many people are viewing Dakka but not registering, there is your silent majority, what do they think of us when they read posts that frequently turn personal?
I'll continue to post regardless of the flak, as sooner or later ALL of us on Dakka will realise if we combine under one banner we have a powerful voice. Think of all the manufacturers who post their new stuff on this website for our comments and feedback. It is time to stop the infights that regularly go on.
Cue the flak...

Simply pay your money and make your chioce.

Play the games you like and buy the minatures you like the look of.

Thats what ALL gamers-collectors do.

According to the finacial reports , GW plc have suffered a 40% drop in sales volumes in the last decade.
And T.Kirby and M.Wells have been confidant of a return to significant growth ,(that never happened) , for the last 7 years.
(The definition of madness is performing the same actions in the same circumstanses and expecting different results.)

So GW plcs 'silent majority' that are happy with what GW plc do , is steadily turning into a 'silent minority'.

Many posters that critisise GWplc , actualy WANT GW plc to turn the corner and do well long term, because GW WAS a great company once upon a time in our opinion.
(Before T.Kirby decided GWplc was '...in the buisness of selling toy soldiers to kiddies...' that is.)

Happy gaming.

I wonder whether GW knows where the term "Silent Majority" came from: i.e. the Vietnam War, where the government believed that the anti-war protests were a fringe thing, and the majority of the American people still supported the war in Vietnam.

Yeah, about that. . .

Slipstream wrote: I used to be one of the silent majority, now I seem to get my ass shot off every time I suggest anything here on Dakka. I'm absolutely horrified about how GW is messing up and yet when I suggest something the responses I get range from "are you stupid" to questioning my grammar. Now I'm not making ridiculous suggestions, but there are too many who are too ready to say it won't work, too ready to troll, to not take it seriously. Look sometimes at how many people are viewing Dakka but not registering, there is your silent majority, what do they think of us when they read posts that frequently turn personal?
I'll continue to post regardless of the flak, as sooner or later ALL of us on Dakka will realise if we combine under one banner we have a powerful voice. Think of all the manufacturers who post their new stuff on this website for our comments and feedback. It is time to stop the infights that regularly go on.
Cue the flak...

That's the other part. These forums (not just Dakka, all of them) are dismissed, ridiculed and openly mocked by GW staff. Why? Because these "communities" are really nothing more than Internet Animal Houses where the Monkeys have taken over.

They really don't -want- the average forum goer as a customer. They'll keep taking your money. But they don't want you and they don't care about you.

Why? Because most people on these forums make miniature players look like socially maladjusted, rabid chimps.

Worglock wrote:That's the other part. These forums (not just Dakka, all of them) are dismissed, ridiculed and openly mocked by GW staff. Why? Because these "communities" are really nothing more than Internet Animal Houses where the Monkeys have taken over.

They really don't -want- the average forum goer as a customer. They'll keep taking your money. But they don't want you and they don't care about you.

Why? Because most people on these forums make miniature players look like socially maladjusted, rabid chimps.

Include yourself in that offensive and far-reaching insult to the regular users of this forum and the many like it?

Probably not.

I suppose if people just shut up and made sure they had no opinion on any matter that comes up and not a single thought in their heads the world would become a perfect paradise where rainbows painted the sky and dogsh*t smelt of chocolate, but they will insist on thinking for themselves, won't they!

Carmine the Wolf wrote:I suppose if people just shut up and made sure they had no opinion on any matter that comes up and not a single thought in their heads the world would become a perfect paradise where rainbows painted the sky and dogsh*t smelt of chocolate, but they will insist on thinking for themselves, won't they!

I think a few bad apples paint the entire online community as what Worglock just described in the eyes of GW staff, unfortunately.

I don't agree that it's "most" of the forum-goers, however.

Monster Rain wrote:

Carmine the Wolf wrote:I suppose if people just shut up and made sure they had no opinion on any matter that comes up and not a single thought in their heads the world would become a perfect paradise where rainbows painted the sky and dogsh*t smelt of chocolate, but they will insist on thinking for themselves, won't they!

I think a few bad apples paint the entire online community as what Worglock just described in the eyes of GW staff, unfortunately.

I don't agree that it's "most" of the forum-goers, however.

If he'd put it the same way you do then I'd have agreed with him.

Wolfstan wrote:They like to point out that it's the vocal minority on the web that likes to moan and shout.

Is this really the case? Are "the silent majority" really a valid group?

Obviously the existence of a "silent majority" is obvious. A vast number of GW's customers don't post on Dakka, Warseer, BOLS, or any number of other 40k sites. There are regular posts here from GW players who are shocked to learn that you can play 40k outside of an official GW store, or that non-GW stores sell models. There was recently a young man at my FLGS who insisted that you had to paint your models according to the Official Scheme. When challenged, he amended it to "If you want to play in a GW tournament." He was quite surprised to learn that wasn't the case either.

So yes, there are a lot of silent customers who buy into whatever GW says and never look outside of the small box GW has carved out of the market.

However, companies can't rely on the Silent Majority in a business sense. The Silent Majority by definition doesn't give feedback. You never know whether they accept price rises, grudgingly go along with them for now, or stop buying. You can't tell if your customer base is growing or falling if all you track are gross sales.

On the other hand, you can't listen to the Vocal Minority too much, because they're not a representative sample. You're going to get a larger sampling of dissatisfied customers. But you're also going to get a good idea of the issues people are raising and will be able to effectively respond to those issues.

GW has so far ignored the VM on the basis that the SM is sufficient to support their current business methods. I don't think this is the case, and their failure to address any of the issues raised by the VM is leading the SM to leave the game and the Hobby.

Slipstream wrote: I used to be one of the silent majority, now I seem to get my ass shot off every time I suggest anything here on Dakka. I'm absolutely horrified about how GW is messing up and yet when I suggest something the responses I get range from "are you stupid" to questioning my grammar. Now I'm not making ridiculous suggestions, but there are too many who are too ready to say it won't work, too ready to troll, to not take it seriously. Look sometimes at how many people are viewing Dakka but not registering, there is your silent majority, what do they think of us when they read posts that frequently turn personal?
I'll continue to post regardless of the flak, as sooner or later ALL of us on Dakka will realise if we combine under one banner we have a powerful voice. Think of all the manufacturers who post their new stuff on this website for our comments and feedback. It is time to stop the infights that regularly go on.
Cue the flak...

Call me when you have a real problem.

Worglock wrote:Alll of the people on this site and the others that claim to "hate" GW still hand them their wallets.

This is another meme that keeps getting repeated and I really wish people would learn a few facts before they repeat it. I haven't bought GW miniatures in over a year, and even before then because of the lack of value caused by constant price rises I was rarely buying anything. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I'm of course always open to the possiblity that GW will bring the cost of their miniatures into line with what they're worth, but whole finecast issue has shown me that isn't going to happen.

When GW annoys me I leave. When I get the urge to play again, I come back, sometimes 5 or more years later. There's a million other hobbies out there, go find the one that works for you. If it stops being fun, move on to the next.

Dakka's tone has changed over the last twelve years. The arguments used to be divided between the "artists" vs. the "power gamers". Most of the artists left.

Now, it's between GW "haters" and "apologists", and its the people who actually like the game who are are leaving. Too many threads get derailed by the "GW doesn't love us" statements. If you want love, go hang with your mom.

Anyways, that's my take on the silent majority. People who have real problems in their lives, and play games or paint models as a release. Most of those people don't need to keep coming back to a forum that's a morass of negativity, so you don't hear from them.

Mastiff wrote:When GW annoys me I leave. When I get the urge to play again, I come back, sometimes 5 or more years later. There's a million other hobbies out there, go find the one that works for you. If it stops being fun, move on to the next.

Dakka's tone has changed over the last twelve years. The arguments used to be divided between the "artists" vs. the "power gamers". Most of the artists left.

Now, it's between GW "haters" and "apologists", and its the people who actually like the game who are are leaving. Too many threads get derailed by the "GW doesn't love us" statements. If you want love, go hang with your mom.

Anyways, that's my take on the silent majority. People who have real problems in their lives, and play games or paint models as a release. Most of those people don't need to keep coming back to a forum that's a morass of negativity, so you don't hear from them.

Preach it brother!

The silent majority of gamers are happy with the stuff.

Of course when you go into your FLGS and see that the shelves of GW stuff are shrinking, while PP, Malfaux, and FOW are pushing them to the back of the shop?

well...


That "silent majority" comment is just another propaganda talking point by a team of pencil pushing bean counters that have imbibed in too much Kool-Aid for thier own good.

When you talk to a redshirt on thier turf- GW is the dogs! They can do no wrong! People LOVE the big brother mentality, and they shell out thier cash like mindless drones.

Outside of thier bubble of groupthink?

People play the game, and if something else comes along thats better? People drop it and move on. The majority of people have limited time to dwell on this BS and don't really care. Don't believe me? Check out the swap section, or Feebay.

The serious point here is that people really don't care at the end of the day, and they leaveif things get rough. "40K? Oh, I tried that, it got expensive, so I left that stuff to my brother.... friends... kid.

Shops I've been in in the past two month are cheesed off about the finecrap pricegouge. The rules skewared to the FOTM armies, and the cheesehead plays of the company of the last month or two. That finecraop got a whopping five to ten models on the shelf, and MORE choices of gaming is showing itself up there. FF games, and some more board games are pushing the minis, as well as the reemergence of the old school stuff, such as Battletech, the old starfleet battles stuff, shadowrun, the new HERO system stuff, etc. As well as peoples resells. ( for some odd reason people are trading in thier 40K stuff.)

Prices are the biggest thing so far, and it is getting worse.


The "real" silent majority just leave after about a month or two, or whenever they see thorugh the smokescreen that is the GW "Hobby", then move on to other game systems. They don't have anything invested but a couple of bucks and some time. When they start talking about prices, it then becomes appearent whats going to happen next.
Then they drop thier GW "fix" and move on.

They then get out before they get caught in the rat trap. FOW, PP, Malfaux, and other systems are getting thier money instead.

Grot 6 wrote:The silent majority of gamers are happy with the stuff.

Of course when you go into your FLGS and see that the shelves of GW stuff are shrinking, while PP, Malfaux, and FOW are pushing them to the back of the shop?

well...


That "silent majority" comment is just another propaganda talking point by a team of pencil pushing bean counters that have imbibed in too much Kool-Aid for thier own good.

When you talk to a redshirt on thier turf- GW is the dogs! They can do no wrong! People LOVE the big brother mentality, and they shell out thier cash like mindless drones.

Outside of thier bubble of groupthink?

People play the game, and if something else comes along thats better? People drop it and move on. The majority of people have limited time to dwell on this BS and don't really care. Don't believe me? Check out the swap section, or Feebay.

The serious point here is that people really don't care at the end of the day, and they leaveif things get rough. "40K? Oh, I tried that, it got expensive, so I left that stuff to my brother.... friends... kid.

Shops I've been in in the past two month are cheesed off about the finecrap pricegouge. The rules skewared to the FOTM armies, and the cheesehead plays of the company of the last month or two. That finecraop got a whopping five to ten models on the shelf, and MORE choices of gaming is showing itself up there. FF games, and some more board games are pushing the minis, as well as the reemergence of the old school stuff, such as Battletech, the old starfleet battles stuff, shadowrun, the new HERO system stuff, etc. As well as peoples resells. ( for some odd reason people are trading in thier 40K stuff.)

Prices are the biggest thing so far, and it is getting worse.


The "real" silent majority just leave after about a month or two, or whenever they see thorugh the smokescreen that is the GW "Hobby", then move on to other game systems. They don't have anything invested but a couple of bucks and some time. When they start talking about prices, it then becomes appearent whats going to happen next.
Then they drop thier GW "fix" and move on.

They then get out before they get caught in the rat trap. FOW, PP, Malfaux, and other systems are getting thier money instead.

Erm... no?

I'll admit, PP and Malifaux are certainly rising in popularity where I am situated, but the GW shelves are hardly "shrinking", and believe it or not there are people who enjoy the games and don't really take the business decisions of the company to heart. Not to say that GW is correct in their decisions, but for some people it's just not important. Is that a bit backward, sure. But the "silent majority" do exist, believe it or not. You see them in the P&M forums with their brand new GW projects, you see them at GW tournaments every so often, you see them in the stores and even those basement gamers who don't have an FLGS to go to. It's ridiculous to suggest that people who buy GW products are "Slaves to the monopoly". There's a reason GW hasn't sunk yet, believe it or not. Sure, people love the big brother mentality, but people also love the underdog mentality. It's easy to say that other companies are the gems hidden behind GW's smokescreen, but it's easy to criticize GW for being at the top.

And while other companies have great games, that doesn't necessarily mean their communities are great. A fair amount (Not all, but some) of the people who play WM/H or Malifaux keep bringing up their baggage against GW wherever they go, going to the point of flat out insulting people who still support GW. Now, I get that there's an intense hate for them going on right now, but seriously, just leave it at home. The elitist bullcrap that comes from some people who hate GW is just getting annoying and rude. I don't bash you for playing WM, so quit bashing me for playing WHFB or whatever (Not that I have personally, but friends of mine have.) If I went into the Discussions forum and talked about how I dislike anything about PP/Wyrd or whatever, people defending it wouldn't be apologists or fanboys, but when you try to defend GW you are?

Some people (not you Grot 6, I just quoted you as an example) really just need to stop getting butthurt about everything GW and just move on.

Its sort of the same as your facebook page, 95% of the content is generated by 5% of your friends (your numbers may vary).

Am i pissed etc that prices are going up and half my codex doesn't have models, yes! Is crying about it on a fansite or facebook page gonna get anything accomplished? No, its not, and long ago i realized this and have invested my time in other things than spamming/troilling/etc forums.

You have to understand that information is on a regional/global area.

Killkrazy wrote:

Mikhaila knows a lot about how his shop is doing in his local environment. Mikhaila's shop is great. It's in a good location, with lots of space, great terrain and a wide selection of games and systems. He hosts tournaments with barbecues and so on. Altogether it is the kind of shop that we would all like near us. It's not surprising it is doing well.

All shops aren't like that.

To get an idea of how GW really is doing, you need to look at their annual financial reports as time series data.

to me, Killkrazy is 100% correct in this comment. I can go to my region and see stores like this doing fine as they have diversified their product line. I have also seen where stores have gotten rid of their GW line or reduce their shelf space as well.

Killskrazy is also right where to look on how healthy a company via their financial reports.

Grot 6 has made some excellent comments as well as he sees certain things in his region.

MHO is that the silent majority votes with their pocket book and -that- reflects on the financial report.

I think the silent majority consists of those who are fed up with the forums having twenty new topics a day of whinging over GW. It really needs to be condensed into two topics, the "I hate GW" and "I love GW" topics


Automatically Appended Next Post:
These forums get boring quick when all the topics are copy pastas of the ones below

Ugavine wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:b) just don't care. They pay for their plastic army men, and play the game. Maybe they'll grumble about the prices once in a while, but they just don't care enough to do anything else.

This. Nearly.
It's not that they don't care, it's that they are happy with the game.

Seriously, is no one here happy with Games Workshop games?

My mates and I are all pretty happy with Games Workshop games.

I have to agree with this, and I'd ammend my post to match if I could.

I'm happy with my gaming group. I'm happy playing 40k, BFG, and what have you...yes I know GW has issues, and yes I know GW isn't the end all be all, but I'm still happy with what I play. Yes, I'm cutting down on spenidng, but that's more because I have all the core things I need for a wide variety of lists, and now I'm just getting fancy toys to hang up on the edges.