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I've heard this argument so many times. Usually from people who don't really understand the entertainment industry at all.

You're right though, you're entitled to everything you want for free.

dajobe wrote:A slightly damaged profit margin is not a good thing, if all companies did not care about a small decrease in profit, most companies would not survive. All companies need every dollar they can get and are not a good one if they settle for anything less.

Just want to let you know for 99% of cases, this is utter bull.


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Monster Rain wrote:I've heard this argument so many times. Usually from people who don't really understand the entertainment industry at all.

You're right though, you're entitled to everything you want for free.

and you know what, most people will continue, but it can't really be stopped. It's futile to try. They've been doing their best to do so for the past decade and have only spurred it more. If they want to increase revenue they will have to adapt.


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iproxtaco wrote:And I agree, but trying to control something like the Internet, as stupid as it may sound, is wrong in my opinion.

it's not just wrong it's the last dying breath of an old system trying to stay relevant. A bunch of old men trying to keep things going the way they started. Sure you can strike down the pirate bay..... if you spend mega resources trying to do so. But there are others out there, many of which are totally anon, untraceable and a lot of it is person to person. The internet is the ultimate free exchange of data and knowledge, trying to box it is a perilous mistake that you can't win. The world is changing, it's the dawn of a new world, and one which will be better than the one that was built by those whom are trying so hard to hold on to the past.


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Personally, while stealing is wrong, it's also just as wrong for the corporations to attack the march of progress instead of adapting to the changing pace of technology. Hell in a way that's what the fight for slavery could be called (afterall with mechanized harvesting slaves become redundant and just another mouth to feed). but I'm sure everyone here thinks slavery should be legal too right? Right? I mean we don't need these new fangled machines to do work for us when we can do things the old fashioned way.


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as for the music industry, it blew up out of proportion when recording came along. free downloads would only send it back to what it was before and that's based on performances. Like it should be. I'm sorry your mega stars will only be making millions instead of billions (exaggerated I know) but they will continue to sell records to devoted fans that care, it just means they have to, ya know, actually be good. Good bye cookie cutter bands, and good riddance. They're going to need a lot more than a nice face and passable talent to succeed. I'm sorry your world is crashing, it's a new world and a new dawn. Get used to it, it happens all the time.

gendoikari87 wrote:

dajobe wrote:A slightly damaged profit margin is not a good thing, if all companies did not care about a small decrease in profit, most companies would not survive. All companies need every dollar they can get and are not a good one if they settle for anything less.

Just want to let you know for 99% of cases, this is utter bull.

Wait, companies can get money by means other than profiting from sale of their goods or services?

This sounds like an excellent business plan. I would like to know more.

biccat wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

dajobe wrote:A slightly damaged profit margin is not a good thing, if all companies did not care about a small decrease in profit, most companies would not survive. All companies need every dollar they can get and are not a good one if they settle for anything less.

Just want to let you know for 99% of cases, this is utter bull.

Wait, companies can get money by means other than profiting from sale of their goods or services?

This sounds like an excellent business plan. I would like to know more.

we're not talking about dipping below in terms of profits, just that a lot of companies can actually take a good hit to their margins and still be lucrative.

gendoikari87 wrote:

biccat wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

dajobe wrote:A slightly damaged profit margin is not a good thing, if all companies did not care about a small decrease in profit, most companies would not survive. All companies need every dollar they can get and are not a good one if they settle for anything less.

Just want to let you know for 99% of cases, this is utter bull.

Wait, companies can get money by means other than profiting from sale of their goods or services?

This sounds like an excellent business plan. I would like to know more.

we're not talking about dipping below in terms of profits, just that a lot of companies can actually take a good hit to their margins and still be lucrative.

Interesting.

Music companies sell music to make a profit. If we allow anyone to take their products for free, how can they maintain any margin at all?

biccat wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

biccat wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

dajobe wrote:A slightly damaged profit margin is not a good thing, if all companies did not care about a small decrease in profit, most companies would not survive. All companies need every dollar they can get and are not a good one if they settle for anything less.

Just want to let you know for 99% of cases, this is utter bull.

Wait, companies can get money by means other than profiting from sale of their goods or services?

This sounds like an excellent business plan. I would like to know more.

we're not talking about dipping below in terms of profits, just that a lot of companies can actually take a good hit to their margins and still be lucrative.

Interesting.

Music companies sell music to make a profit. If we allow anyone to take their products for free, how can they maintain any margin at all?

Records, they will still be sold, just because you CAN get it for free doesn't mean people won't pay for it, SEVERAL webcomics web bands, and game clans have prooven that. But mostly concerts will return to being a major source of commerce.. That or you could try and spend billions of dollars going after a few million in lost revenue. The latter doesn't exactly sound profitable to me.

gendoikari87 wrote:Records, they will still be sold, and concerts. That or you could try and spend billions of dollars going after a few million in lost revenue. The latter doesn't exactly sound profitable to me.

If there's no problem with pirating music, why bother to buy the record?

Although I will grant that concerts are a valid venue. But they don't pull in that much for the record company.

gendoikari87 wrote:anyone heard of this, is this legit and what sites were targetted? seems like a massive breach of privacy if they do.

No. Never heard of this. You got a link? I'm actually moderately worried.

biccat wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:Records, they will still be sold, and concerts. That or you could try and spend billions of dollars going after a few million in lost revenue. The latter doesn't exactly sound profitable to me.

If there's no problem with pirating music, why bother to buy the record?

Although I will grant that concerts are a valid venue. But they don't pull in that much for the record company.

Concerts used to be the ONLY avenue for profit. People forget that. and as for why you would spend money on a record when it's free? That's a no brainer, much like the webcomics industry, pepople know it costs money do make gak. and if it's something they like, then it's usually something they're willing to spend to keep it going. People aren't stupid, and it's a prooven method.


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Samus_aran115 wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:anyone heard of this, is this legit and what sites were targetted? seems like a massive breach of privacy if they do.

No. Never heard of this. You got a link? I'm actually moderately worried.

just a rumor I overheard someone talking about, I've been looking myself but i'm not worried, as much as I talk about pirating, I don't do so myself. at least not illegally, I have netflix. and gamefly.

There are always exceptions, and I am sure that there are people who argue that the corperations are wrong to try and get money for the product that they produced...because that makes sense. But I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of people that say that pirating music is ok, pirate themselves.

And as for netflix and gamefly, those companies pay for the right to use those games in their company. This way, the producer still makes money, Netflix and gamefly still make money, and the consumer gets the product in a good deal(i love netflix).

I am sure that the profits lost from pirated music are much greater than you might believe, and even if it is just millions of dollars, where do you draw the line then? when does it change from "just downloading a song illegaly" to stealing then. If piracy is allowed, the music industry will take a great hit because there will be no incentive to produce if you cant make money off of it.

also, WHY would a company be ok with taking a hit?
Accountant: Sir we have lost over 10 million dollars in revenue this year to pirated music...
CEO: its ok, we dont need the money, we arent trying to be successful, or help our investors.
Accountant: Thats right, i forgot, your right sir.

After the gakfest that was Napster and how every record company DIDN'T collapse because of it, I fail to see the major impact of torrent sites.

gendoikari87 wrote:

biccat wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:Records, they will still be sold, and concerts. That or you could try and spend billions of dollars going after a few million in lost revenue. The latter doesn't exactly sound profitable to me.

If there's no problem with pirating music, why bother to buy the record?

Although I will grant that concerts are a valid venue. But they don't pull in that much for the record company.

Concerts used to be the ONLY avenue for profit. People forget that.

Not sure how long ago you're thinking.

As far back as record companies existed the purpose of concerts was to sell music. It was a way to advertise new acts and demonstrate how true-to-life the company's recordings were.

Music recording as an industry didn't really develop until the means to record and replay were invented, thereby creating a demand for those products.

gendoikari87 wrote:and as for why you would spend money on a record when it's free? That's a no brainer, much like the webcomics industry, pepople know it costs money do make gak. and if it's something they like, then it's usually something they're willing to spend to keep it going. People aren't stupid, and it's a prooven method.

Not sure about the economics of webcomics, but I would wager that most of their income comes from advertising rather than sale of product or donations.

There are always exceptions, and I am sure that there are people who argue that the corperations are wrong to try and get money for the product that they produced...because that makes sense.

There's a difference between making a buck, and squeezing every dime out of people that you possible can. America knew the difference back in the 50"s and 60's, it has sense forgotten what a civilized business market is.

After the gakfest that was Napster and how every record company DIDN'T collapse because of it, I fail to see the major impact of torrent sites.

Because *GASP* people will still buy records the like when they have the songs for free already because they want to support the band.

that is still money that BELONGS to that company, I view illegal downloading the same as going to a store and stealing a CD. I think that if this 500.000 warrants thing is real, the prosecutors need to crack down HARD! piracy is ILLEGAL! if i was a record company i would ask for the heaviest punishment possible and maximum charges. Piracy DOES hurt the music industry whether you guys believe it or not, and needs to be stopped.

Not sure about the economics of webcomics, but I would wager that most of their income comes from advertising rather than sale of product or donations.

Some do some only have other webcomics advertising, Something positive has two advertisements up right now, and they aren't for big companies and before they were for other webcomics. The creator has said specifically he gets most of his income from donations, and he was able to quit his day job.


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dajobe wrote:that is still money that BELONGS to that company, I view illegal downloading the same as going to a store and stealing a CD. I think that if this 500.000 warrants thing is real, the prosecutors need to crack down HARD! piracy is ILLEGAL! if i was a record company i would ask for the heaviest punishment possible and maximum charges. Piracy DOES hurt the music industry whether you guys believe it or not, and needs to be stopped.

yeah and you know what, you can make it illegal for people to collect water and then charge them through the roof for water, well more than half their daily wages per day. Check out the bolivian water crisis. That was completely legal, didn't make it right.

Not sure how long ago you're thinking.

As far back as record companies existed the purpose of concerts was to sell music. It was a way to advertise new acts and demonstrate how true-to-life the company's recordings were.

Music recording as an industry didn't really develop until the means to record and replay were invented, thereby creating a demand for those products.

You know there was a music industry before the turn of the century right, and that it produced Beethoven, Bach, motzart, and wagner.

I am sure that the profits lost from pirated music are much greater than you might believe, and even if it is just millions of dollars, where do you draw the line then? when does it change from "just downloading a song illegaly" to stealing then. If piracy is allowed, the music industry will take a great hit because there will be no incentive to produce if you cant make money off of it.

holy gak that's so much utter bull. 1) there have been studies to show that those who download illegally spend the most on music, 2) the incentive to produce is still there, there is still money there, even if there wasn't, there's still incentive, creative people create. You don't need to be a super rich rockstar to be a good musician. that's the sort of capitalist brainwashing bs that most real musicians try to avoid before they sell out.


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yeah and you know what, you can make it illegal for people to collect water and then charge them through the roof for water,

Did you really just equate the right to drinking water with a perceived right to be entertained?

Some laws are patently unjust. Laws pertaining to copyright are not. Your defence appears to be that the law is (you think) unenforceable. If so why are you pissing ypourself in fear about these supposed warrants?

Piracy is theft. If you shoplift an album from HMV or whoever, going back and buying six albums by that same artist does not make it right.

They should rename it. I don't recall Blackbeard sailing up to a Spanish treasure galleon, perfectly reproducing every item in it, then sailing away again leaving the original perfectly intact. If they want a name, its "counterfeiting", not "Piracy".

If I shoplift an album from HMV, I have to remove it from the building, denying others the opportunity to also purchase it. If I had the magical ability to replicate the CD and leave the store with it, then it would not be "theft", it would be "wizardry." Software Piracy cannot be "theft" in the traditional sense, because nobody is LOSING the item concerned.

When I buy a record I do it to support an artist. I'd actually generally prefer to buy their work as mp3s or whatever, but it usually seems that stuff is only available through itunes and I'll cut off my thumb before I give money to apple or install itunes on my computer.

I think the idea that "the structure" needs to change to suit the internet is a bit one sided. We also need to give the artists time to adapt to the net, and remember that all artists who produce good music may not be net savvy, and this isn't their fault or a bad thing.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:They should rename it. I don't recall Blackbeard sailing up to a Spanish treasure galleon, perfectly reproducing every item in it, then sailing away again leaving the original perfectly intact. If they want a name, its "counterfeiting", not "Piracy".

If I shoplift an album from HMV, I have to remove it from the building, denying others the opportunity to also purchase it. If I had the magical ability to replicate the CD and leave the store with it, then it would not be "theft", it would be "wizardry." Software Piracy cannot be "theft" in the traditional sense, because nobody is LOSING the item concerned.

It is called piracy because pirates take things that aren't theirs, just like taking music or movies one did not buy. It is nice to see 4chan logic spreading around though.

Indeed, AbreitsSchu, you're taking away the artist's right to get money for their creation. That is theft. You are stealing an idea, a package of information.

Illegal downloading is illegal and no matter what it is illegal. How can you rationalize stealing music by saying that webcomics are able to make money purely off of donations? If a webcomic artist quite their job because they got enough donations to keep it running along with supporting their family then guess what their new job is, its being a webcomic artist.

If you look at it the money you pay for music is simply a donation, you aren't forced to buy it and maybe its on the radio for you to enjoy. But saying that you want to have a copy of the song for your own personal enjoyment because you like it and then not pay for it you are stealing it. Webcomics are made for everyone and you can't get your own personal copy unless you pay for it(via printer ink or buying a book they sell), its the same web page that will be on the internet for as long as the author can afford to put it up there. In both cases a person is making a good that they want people to pay for(music makes music and webcomic artist makes webcomics), and need someone to help get their product out for people to hear(music has radio and webcomics use word of mouth) and get paid for it (music has concerts, radio income, and album sales while webcomics have advertiser income, book sales, and donations). Either way we have two groups of people making money off of people who like their services, but if I go online and download a copy of the webcomic's book that he sells I'm still stealing it.

Don't forget kids;

Home-taping is killing music

How much money do they lose if I never would have bought it in the first place? Not arguing legality, morality or ethics here, just commenting.

filbert wrote:Don't forget kids;

Home-taping is killing music

I always wait for this point. Can't censor cassettes :d

If you don't want it then you're not going to download it in the first place.

I'd be curious to see a poll of how many posters in this thread who have never made a mixed tape off the radio or recorded a movie to VHS.

Personally, I'm a bit torn on the subject. On one hand, stealing is wrong. There are a lot of talented individuals in the entertainment industry with specialized training that assist in making great music and movies. These days these are the people who contribute the lions share to the quality of the end product. These are the engineers and producers. They deserve to be paid for their efforts. The distribution companies who finance the creation of the entertainment and the artistic process, deserve to get paid as well and of course lets not forget the artist.

On the other hand, the industry has done so well with its business model over the last 50 years or so that it has found a way to make money off of pushing utter garbage.

The market is far too saturated with movies that are not compelling stories told with a true talent or music compossed by a pationate soul.

There is something to be said for the quality of work a 'starving artist' can produce imo.

The technology is there to eliminate the big record/production company model and give more controll to the artist themselves.

There will always be a need for some type of record company / production company as there are so many specialized parts involved in the process, but I dont think the big studio god head is needed and we are seeing the current companies realize this and fight it (as any business would).

Also I think its worth noting, the artist usually fall into two catagories, the superstar or everyone else. The superstar is the bread and butter of the production company and makes obscene amounts of money, everyone else is usually in debt to the record companys for financing their creation process.

So do you support an antiquated system fat from its own gluttony on principal of right and wrong and so the artist makes a little more money?

Yes, yes I do support antiquated systems because its the law and I like the law because it helps me when someone is unlawful in my general area.

This whole thread = tl;dr

Anyways, this is why I buy music, because:

1.) You can't get in trouble for it.
2.) You contribute to the artist making music.
3.) The pirates life is not for you and I.
4.) A lot of illegal download sites can carry malware and other things, ever wonder why limewire isn't as popular these days?
5.) Refer to number 1

My problem isn't so much that people have downloaded something or made a mix tip, it is when the attitude becomes one that they are entitled to it.


The big company may not feel it, but the small guys do. Warner Bros. may not be crying over lost revenue (though they probably are the greedy bastards) but the key grip on the set that won't get hired again because they are cutting budgets slightly to make up for it. So while the studio isn't feeling it that much, that guy sure is. Way to stick it to the least capable to withstand it.

Ahtman wrote:... it is when the attitude becomes one that they are entitled to it.


The big company may not feel it, but the small guys do. Warner Bros. may not be crying over lost revenue (though they probably are the greedy bastards) but the key grip on the set that won't get hired again because they are cutting budgets slightly to make up for it. So while the studio isn't feeling it that much, that guy sure is. Way to stick it to the least capable to withstand it.

I agree with you 100% here.

Ahtman wrote:My problem isn't so much that people have downloaded something or made a mix tip, it is when the attitude becomes one that they are entitled to it.


The big company may not feel it, but the small guys do. Warner Bros. may not be crying over lost revenue (though they probably are the greedy bastards) but the key grip on the set that won't get hired again because they are cutting budgets slightly to make up for it. So while the studio isn't feeling it that much, that guy sure is. Way to stick it to the least capable to withstand it.

Pretty much, this.

This is the reason a lot of groups never make it big, because in the record industry, you have to start small, and work up, and it's impossible to do so when you're making nothing from your music, not every artist will be the next madonna or prince, but there are a lot of artists who make good music that if you like, go ahead and support them, what's $9.99 compared to people who spend on GW anyways?


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Samus_aran115 wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:anyone heard of this, is this legit and what sites were targetted? seems like a massive breach of privacy if they do.

No. Never heard of this. You got a link? I'm actually moderately worried.

Hahahahaha, this is why I buy from amazon, problem?