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Kanluwen wrote:Oh not just the Eldar.

There's, in the Deathwatch RPG, mention of captured Tau stealth tech being broken down and rebuilt. It's going okay, but it's still got a lot of kinks to be worked out and much of the tech still has to be nailed down without the Xenos bits in it.

Otherwise, woohoo Stealth Power Armour.

Oh.
Hell.
Yes.
We'll never see it in fluff or in game but the idea makes me happy...
Incidentally, the monkeys are learning!
Thank you.

NicMonsteR wrote:zMaybe a Gundum pilot could fly it........

I see what you did there...

KingDeath wrote:

Malivon wrote:I think if the ad mech really wanted ftl travel that did not use the warp they would try to get their hands on some necron tech.

They constantly do and it always ends badly for the involved techpriests.

They could probably dig 10 meters deeper in mars and find some!

Agent_Tremolo wrote:The AdMech may have reverse-engineered Tau battlesuits, but I doubt they'd find anything useful in them. After all, Space Marine power armour is a miniaturized, more advanced version of a battlesuit.

Imperial technology is mostly made of a patchwork of memories of mankind's glorious past. It's no longer pushing forward, but is still more advanced than anything the Tau have come up with.

A tank that hovers and fires two rounds both of which can either pop tanks of vaporize hordes is bad? How about the disruption pod that creates a spectral field to disrupt incoming shots? Thats less advanced than popping smoke and hoping to god you dont explode? Smart Missiles that fly around and hone in on targets behind buildings and pop them is bad?

I think cost plays a factor to cheaper to build and mantain something then after all the imperium is a huge buerachrecy

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Agent_Tremolo wrote:The AdMech may have reverse-engineered Tau battlesuits, but I doubt they'd find anything useful in them. After all, Space Marine power armour is a miniaturized, more advanced version of a battlesuit.

Imperial technology is mostly made of a patchwork of memories of mankind's glorious past. It's no longer pushing forward, but is still more advanced than anything the Tau have come up with.

A tank that hovers and fires two rounds both of which can either pop tanks of vaporize hordes is bad?

A tank that hovers, is lightly armored, and fires two rounds which can pop tanks or vaporize hordes is bad when it requires a load of specialist training, constant upkeep from highly trained specialist repair personnel, is reliant upon favorable weather conditions, and can be hulled by commonly distributed support weapons.

In contrast, a basic Leman Russ is a simple machine which can be loaded with six shell variants, only one of which is considered 'rare'.
-HE
-AT
-Illumination
-Infernus
-Smoke
-Hunter

How about the disruption pod that creates a spectral field to disrupt incoming shots? Thats less advanced than popping smoke and hoping to god you dont explode?

A disruption pod is ECM spoofing. That's not some kind of massive achievement. Deathwatch: Rites of Battle makes it clear that the Imperium has it on Astartes Scout armor. And ECM spoofing has its limitations...popping smoke is a simple, effective measure that benefits both the tank and any infantry escorting the tank.

However, when it comes down to it, as usual that's like comparing apples and shotguns. The Tau way of war is in no way similar to the Imperium's. The Imperium is all about mass production and ease of use. They want something any idiot can be taught to use within a manner of days, not weeks or months.

Smart Missiles that fly around and home in on targets behind buildings and pop them is bad?

You must not be aware of 'Hunter Shells'. The Imperium can't produce them anymore, but they do have stockpiles of them that are occasionally found and distributed amongst veteran tank crews. They've got a small logic-engine similar to that in a Hunter-Killer Missile and can be fired by any Leman Russ variant.

And then of course you've got the Hunter-Killer Missiles themselves.

Kanluwen wrote:You don't hand a monkey an Allen wrench and your Ikea furniture and expect to find it fully assembled afterwards.

What if it's a Jokaero?

Jokaeros are apes, not monkeys.

First of all they are Xenos. They might look like apes and one theory says they might be related. But still.

Hi all

Don't know huge amounts about the Tau, a lot of what I know is probably imperial propaganda.

In Henry Zou's Emperor Mercey, Inquisitor Barq uses Tau Tech he seizes from a Narco Baron. The description of the tech is a of an upper body rig with gatling style cannons built into the arms and Pistons/hydraulics built in to take the recoil aswell as amplify strength. So maybe it is a case that tau tech can be reverse engineered but only the Rich criminal types would bother.

In regards to Firewarrior armour I did assume this was basically carapace, I thought the helmets was to compensate for Tau having poor eye sight (this might be the propaganda).

I have to agree with the sentiments that the imperium wants to keep things simple so any one can use. I mean look at the difference in cultures, the Tau have a Fire Caste so you can assume that they are probably trained from birth. The Imperium (although cadia, Kreig and Catachan might be the exceptions) does not have a warrior class, your conscripted given a las gun and shoved out and airlock in a dropship.

Tau technology traded to Imperials is designed for human use.

Kilkrazy wrote:Tau technology traded to Imperials is designed for human use.

So it's activated by dancing and singing.

Do the tau actually share the big things like crisis suits?

Nope.

nomotog wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Tau technology traded to Imperials is designed for human use.

So it's activated by dancing and singing.

Do the tau actually share the big things like crisis suits?

In one of the novels they sold some kind of weapons suit to a Hive gang. It wasn't a Crisis suit though.

Kanluwen wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Agent_Tremolo wrote:The AdMech may have reverse-engineered Tau battlesuits, but I doubt they'd find anything useful in them. After all, Space Marine power armour is a miniaturized, more advanced version of a battlesuit.

Imperial technology is mostly made of a patchwork of memories of mankind's glorious past. It's no longer pushing forward, but is still more advanced than anything the Tau have come up with.

A tank that hovers and fires two rounds both of which can either pop tanks of vaporize hordes is bad?

A tank that hovers, is lightly armored, and fires two rounds which can pop tanks or vaporize hordes is bad when it requires a load of specialist training, constant upkeep from highly trained specialist repair personnel, is reliant upon favorable weather conditions, and can be hulled by commonly distributed support weapons.

In contrast, a basic Leman Russ is a simple machine which can be loaded with six shell variants, only one of which is considered 'rare'.
-HE
-AT
-Illumination
-Infernus
-Smoke
-Hunter

How about the disruption pod that creates a spectral field to disrupt incoming shots? Thats less advanced than popping smoke and hoping to god you dont explode?

A disruption pod is ECM spoofing. That's not some kind of massive achievement. Deathwatch: Rites of Battle makes it clear that the Imperium has it on Astartes Scout armor. And ECM spoofing has its limitations...popping smoke is a simple, effective measure that benefits both the tank and any infantry escorting the tank.

However, when it comes down to it, as usual that's like comparing apples and shotguns. The Tau way of war is in no way similar to the Imperium's. The Imperium is all about mass production and ease of use. They want something any idiot can be taught to use within a manner of days, not weeks or months.

Smart Missiles that fly around and home in on targets behind buildings and pop them is bad?

You must not be aware of 'Hunter Shells'. The Imperium can't produce them anymore, but they do have stockpiles of them that are occasionally found and distributed amongst veteran tank crews. They've got a small logic-engine similar to that in a Hunter-Killer Missile and can be fired by any Leman Russ variant.

And then of course you've got the Hunter-Killer Missiles themselves.

My original reply wasn't in the Imperial tech being garbage equipment, it was in response to the ignorant post about Imperial technology being better than anything the Tau have ever created. In my opinion that isn't even a discussion it's so wrong. The apex of human technology wasn't even on par with the Eldar or Necrons. It was good, but its way overplayed.

it is heresy to hop into xenos armour

Kilkrazy wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Tau technology traded to Imperials is designed for human use.

So it's activated by dancing and singing.

Do the tau actually share the big things like crisis suits?

In one of the novels they sold some kind of weapons suit to a Hive gang. It wasn't a Crisis suit though.

Isn't that used as the basis for one of the Necromunda factions too?

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Agent_Tremolo wrote:The AdMech may have reverse-engineered Tau battlesuits, but I doubt they'd find anything useful in them. After all, Space Marine power armour is a miniaturized, more advanced version of a battlesuit.

Imperial technology is mostly made of a patchwork of memories of mankind's glorious past. It's no longer pushing forward, but is still more advanced than anything the Tau have come up with.

A tank that hovers and fires two rounds both of which can either pop tanks of vaporize hordes is bad?

A tank that hovers, is lightly armored, and fires two rounds which can pop tanks or vaporize hordes is bad when it requires a load of specialist training, constant upkeep from highly trained specialist repair personnel, is reliant upon favorable weather conditions, and can be hulled by commonly distributed support weapons.

In contrast, a basic Leman Russ is a simple machine which can be loaded with six shell variants, only one of which is considered 'rare'.
-HE
-AT
-Illumination
-Infernus
-Smoke
-Hunter

How about the disruption pod that creates a spectral field to disrupt incoming shots? Thats less advanced than popping smoke and hoping to god you dont explode?

A disruption pod is ECM spoofing. That's not some kind of massive achievement. Deathwatch: Rites of Battle makes it clear that the Imperium has it on Astartes Scout armor. And ECM spoofing has its limitations...popping smoke is a simple, effective measure that benefits both the tank and any infantry escorting the tank.

However, when it comes down to it, as usual that's like comparing apples and shotguns. The Tau way of war is in no way similar to the Imperium's. The Imperium is all about mass production and ease of use. They want something any idiot can be taught to use within a manner of days, not weeks or months.

Smart Missiles that fly around and home in on targets behind buildings and pop them is bad?

You must not be aware of 'Hunter Shells'. The Imperium can't produce them anymore, but they do have stockpiles of them that are occasionally found and distributed amongst veteran tank crews. They've got a small logic-engine similar to that in a Hunter-Killer Missile and can be fired by any Leman Russ variant.

And then of course you've got the Hunter-Killer Missiles themselves.

My original reply wasn't in the Imperial tech being garbage equipment, it was in response to the ignorant post about Imperial technology being better than anything the Tau have ever created. In my opinion that isn't even a discussion it's so wrong. The apex of human technology wasn't even on par with the Eldar or Necrons. It was good, but its way overplayed.

Maybe not, but as Kanluwen has demonstrated this belief of Tau technological superiority on all fronts is mostly wrong, considering, as demonstrated, pieces of supposed ace and exclusive Tau tech is available to The Imperium but in a whole lot more available and useful form.

Well to be fair the "technology" is substitutes, not actually the same technology in a superior format.

E.g. smoke is free but it can only be used once per game.

nobody wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Tau technology traded to Imperials is designed for human use.

So it's activated by dancing and singing.

Do the tau actually share the big things like crisis suits?

In one of the novels they sold some kind of weapons suit to a Hive gang. It wasn't a Crisis suit though.

Isn't that used as the basis for one of the Necromunda factions too?

Yes. The Spyrers. The Inquisition has been inferring that the reason the Spyrer rigs are 'given' at such low costs(relatively) is because it's chock full of recording equipment that documents Imperial society.

Kilkrazy wrote:Well to be fair the "technology" is substitutes, not actually the same technology in a superior format.

The point was that the Imperium has the technology, it just isn't effective in wide-spread distribution, manufacturing, or any other possible factor when it comes to the Imperium's level of manpower required to be equipped.

E.g. smoke is free but it can only be used once per game.

To work off your example:
Smoke isn't the same as ECM spoofing, you're right.

However, the "Disruptor Pod" technology that the Tau have mounted on vehicles is hard-wired into Scout armor for the Astartes.
Why have it on Scout armor and not tanks? Probably because you can't 'vanish' an Imperial tank from line-of-sight, but a Scout wearing a Cameloline Cloak and operating as part of an observational element would get a huge benefit if they can be rendered invisible to the naked eye(Cameloline) and sensor suites that might be scanning for them(what Deathwatch: Rites of Battle refers to as 'Anointments of Obfuscation').

Kilkrazy wrote:Well to be fair the "technology" is substitutes, not actually the same technology in a superior format.

E.g. smoke is free but it can only be used once per game.

And as demonstrated, that's not entirely true either. Scouts have the same thing wired into their armour, it's simply more convenient to have smoke, which obscures infantry as well. I'm not disagreeing that Tau tech isn't great, or more advanced in places, such as railguns, which yes, The Imperium HAD, but they don't have them as the primary anti armour gun on their most widely used tank, but it's not quite this Tau are universally better than The Imperium thing.

Personal theory time

Likely the reason we don't see railguns on Imperial tanks is that, no matter how "OH MY GOD AWESOME" they seem, they're also highly impractical and incredibly specialized. Even the 'submunition' round is a poor substitute for a standard HE round from a standard tank.

The Hammerhead and its Railgun is a very specialized vehicle, very much like the Imperium's "Destroyer" tank hunter. The Leman Russ MBT is very much a 'jack of all trades', with the rounds being used as equalizers and drastically improving their specialty as necessary.

The Leman Russ variants are, of course, a different story entirely. They're almost all without a doubt highly specialized. The Exterminator and Punisher are anti-infantry, the Executioner and Demolishers excel at specific roles(the Executioner being dealing with heavily armored or hard to weed out infantry, with the Demolisher excelling at urban combat and siege warfare), the Conqueror and Vanquisher have their own roles, etc etc.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Agent_Tremolo wrote:The AdMech may have reverse-engineered Tau battlesuits, but I doubt they'd find anything useful in them. After all, Space Marine power armour is a miniaturized, more advanced version of a battlesuit.

Imperial technology is mostly made of a patchwork of memories of mankind's glorious past. It's no longer pushing forward, but is still more advanced than anything the Tau have come up with.

A tank that hovers and fires two rounds both of which can either pop tanks of vaporize hordes is bad?

A tank that hovers, is lightly armored, and fires two rounds which can pop tanks or vaporize hordes is bad when it requires a load of specialist training, constant upkeep from highly trained specialist repair personnel, is reliant upon favorable weather conditions, and can be hulled by commonly distributed support weapons.

In contrast, a basic Leman Russ is a simple machine which can be loaded with six shell variants, only one of which is considered 'rare'.
-HE
-AT
-Illumination
-Infernus
-Smoke
-Hunter

How about the disruption pod that creates a spectral field to disrupt incoming shots? Thats less advanced than popping smoke and hoping to god you dont explode?

A disruption pod is ECM spoofing. That's not some kind of massive achievement. Deathwatch: Rites of Battle makes it clear that the Imperium has it on Astartes Scout armor. And ECM spoofing has its limitations...popping smoke is a simple, effective measure that benefits both the tank and any infantry escorting the tank.

However, when it comes down to it, as usual that's like comparing apples and shotguns. The Tau way of war is in no way similar to the Imperium's. The Imperium is all about mass production and ease of use. They want something any idiot can be taught to use within a manner of days, not weeks or months.

Smart Missiles that fly around and home in on targets behind buildings and pop them is bad?

You must not be aware of 'Hunter Shells'. The Imperium can't produce them anymore, but they do have stockpiles of them that are occasionally found and distributed amongst veteran tank crews. They've got a small logic-engine similar to that in a Hunter-Killer Missile and can be fired by any Leman Russ variant.

And then of course you've got the Hunter-Killer Missiles themselves.

My original reply wasn't in the Imperial tech being garbage equipment, it was in response to the ignorant post about Imperial technology being better than anything the Tau have ever created. In my opinion that isn't even a discussion it's so wrong. The apex of human technology wasn't even on par with the Eldar or Necrons. It was good, but its way overplayed.

What?

Where have I said that human tech is on par with Eldar or Necron?. As far as I know, it never was... and neither is Tau technology, for what matters.

What I wanted to stress with my oh-so-ignorant post is that the Imperium is an old dog. The Tau have managed to get pretty close to their technological level but, while that alone is quite an achievement, they have yet to surpass it.

Tau titans?. Close, but no cigar. Bioengineered troops?. Not yet, sir. Clinical immortality?. Nay. Machine spirits? Warp FTL?...

However, unless they unearth some fancy "new" forgotten supertech from the days of old, or they finally manage to guess how wraithbone or gauss tech works, we've already seen everything the Imperium's got to throw at us. They've gone far, but won't likely go any further. The Tau, on the other hand, are firmly headed towards their own Dark Age of Technology. Unlike the Imperium, they have a bright future waiting before them, they're just not there yet.

The Tau are upstarts. Think Microsoft in the 1980s, surrounded by all those IBMs and General Electrics and the like. They can't fight face-off with the big dogs out there, but someday they will. That's what makes them unique IMHO.

Agent_Tremolo wrote:
The Tau are upstarts. Think Microsoft in the 1980s, surrounded by all those IBMs and General Electrics and the like. They can't fight face-off with the big dogs out there, but someday they will.

Indeed, someday they shall. For in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, GW finally advances the timeline.

Kanluwen wrote:Personal theory time

Likely the reason we don't see railguns on Imperial tanks is that, no matter how "OH MY GOD AWESOME" they seem, they're also highly impractical and incredibly specialized. Even the 'submunition' round is a poor substitute for a standard HE round from a standard tank.

The Hammerhead and its Railgun is a very specialized vehicle, very much like the Imperium's "Destroyer" tank hunter. The Leman Russ MBT is very much a 'jack of all trades', with the rounds being used as equalizers and drastically improving their specialty as necessary.

The Leman Russ variants are, of course, a different story entirely. They're almost all without a doubt highly specialized. The Exterminator and Punisher are anti-infantry, the Executioner and Demolishers excel at specific roles(the Executioner being dealing with heavily armored or hard to weed out infantry, with the Demolisher excelling at urban combat and siege warfare), the Conqueror and Vanquisher have their own roles, etc etc.

You can fling other things out of a rail gun. The tau don't do that right now, but you can throw basically anything you want. (I am basing this in MGS) The reason we don't see railguns on IoM tanks (you know apart form style points) is that they don't have the railgun tank STC.

Which is wrong. SCT's don't exist . I think you may mean STCs, which is still no quite correct. Not everything originates from an STC. They had Railguns on ships during the Heresy, fairly certain they've now lost that knowledge though.

Agent_Tremolo wrote: What?

Where have I said that human tech is on par with Eldar or Necron?. As far as I know, it never was... and neither is Tau technology, for what matters.

What I wanted to stress with my oh-so-ignorant post is that the Imperium is an old dog. The Tau have managed to get pretty close to their technological level but, while that alone is quite an achievement, they have yet to surpass it.

Tau titans?. Close, but no cigar. Bioengineered troops?. Not yet, sir. Clinical immortality?. Nay. Machine spirits? Warp FTL?...

However, unless they unearth some fancy "new" forgotten supertech from the days of old, or they finally manage to guess how wraithbone or gauss tech works, we've already seen everything the Imperium's got to throw at us. They've gone far, but won't likely go any further. The Tau, on the other hand, are firmly headed towards their own Dark Age of Technology. Unlike the Imperium, they have a bright future waiting before them, they're just not there yet.

The Tau are upstarts. Think Microsoft in the 1980s, surrounded by all those IBMs and General Electrics and the like. They can't fight face-off with the big dogs out there, but someday they will. That's what makes them unique IMHO.

You never said it was on par, I stated that an empire that never even reached the galactic "standard" in 40K is overplayed.


1. Tiger Shark > Titans. - Costs less, does more.
2. Battlesuits > Bio-engineered Troops. - No civil wars, materials required aren't becoming extinct.
3. Clinical Imoortality doesn't exist in the IoM. Dreads preserve but do not make immortal. The Emperor is anything but alive in the flesh and Space Marines don't live forever.

On a purely tech scale I'd rank the Tau tied in second with Eldar behind Necrons.

---
Also, to address the specilized issue about Tau Hammerheads, their is nothing indicating anything less than them being easier vehicles to use than Russes. Targeting Arrays do all the hard work for you. Literally, a Hammerhead is a flying Predator that packs a harder punch, sports better cover, and has a wider front with sloped armor.

Overspecialization? Thats what you WANT in a tank and tank crew! You want the best using the best to perform the best! You can't say "No thats worse because mine is crappier and thats better!" Hell no! Doesn't work that way! If your bad tanks and their bad tank crews are getting 1 Kill per 10 deaths to a smart computer with a geek crew then too damn bad! No debate! U are lose!

And what the heck is impractical about a treadless tank? That might be one of the best pieces of technology in armored warfare! All terrain can be passed and you have landing gear for hunkering down! That is bad?! What?!

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

1. Tiger Shark > Titans. - Costs less, does more.

Yeah, I knew this would come up again.
The Tiger Sharks and Mantas deployed against Warhound Titans required the Tau to completely strip air cover from a massive area just to ensure they'd get to the strike zone.

2. Battlesuits > Bio-engineered Troops. - No civil wars, materials required aren't becoming extinct.

Yeah...Battlesuits also can't go many of the places the Astartes can, and are more fragile. But go on.

3. Clinical Immortality doesn't exist in the IoM. Dreads preserve but do not make immortal. The Emperor is anything but alive in the flesh and Space Marines don't live forever.

And 0 for 3.
Juvenat processes extend the lifespan of individuals quite a bit.
Then of course, you've got the way the Mechanicus do it where they create a cybernetic body and retain a consciousness within.

On a purely tech scale I'd rank the Tau tied in second with Eldar behind Necrons.

Uh, try fourth. Tau are nowhere near the level of the Eldar except in hover tech.

Also, to address the specialized issue about Tau Hammerheads, there is nothing indicating anything less than them being easier vehicles to use than Russes. Targeting Arrays do all the hard work for you. Literally, a Hammerhead is a flying Predator that packs a harder punch, sports better cover, and has a wider front with sloped armor.

It also has, fluffwise, less armor, requires a driver and a dedicated gunner at all times while the Predator can have the Machine Spirit take over if necessary and the gunner or driver are taken out.

Overspecialization? Thats what you WANT in a tank and tank crew! You want the best using the best to perform the best! You can't say "No thats worse because mine is crappier and thats better!" Hell no! Doesn't work that way! If your bad tanks and their bad tank crews are getting 1 Kill per 10 deaths to a smart computer with a geek crew then too damn bad! No debate! U are lose!

You are completely not understanding, but I can get why. You're still insisting on thinking of the Guard and their tanks as operating the same as the Tau.

They don't. The Hammerhead has a specific role to play in the Fire Caste's method of war, where they don't have support weapons in every squad. They and the Skyray both provide long distance fire support, particularly aimed at silencing enemy armor.

Guard tanks are deployed en masse, and use the same methodology that the Sherman and many tanks on the Allied side in WWII used.
They support the infantry in close support roles. They don't stay far in the back and wait for targets, they actively are hunting and are there when the infantry need them to be.

And what the heck is impractical about a treadless tank? That might be one of the best pieces of technology in armored warfare! All terrain can be passed and you have landing gear for hunkering down! That is bad?! What?!

You also surrender a large amount of armor, require far more maintenance, and are restricted by weather conditions that ground aircraft.

So yeah--that's bad.

I think Kanluwen has hit every nail on the head with that post.

iproxtaco wrote:I think Kanluwen has hit every nail on the head with that post.

No he hasn't.. It's all off topic though, so ya.