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Explain how this is not the case then.

@Kan

1. Titans proved to be utterly pointless against Tau once counter-tactics were developed. Turns out, increasing the size of the bunker does little to negate the buster that pops it. Larger Titan /= to better Titan.

2. Battlesuits can't go in many of the areas Astartes can, they can kill everything an Astartes can though, with better weapon load outs too. They also make superior super soldiers since they aren't prone to galaxy wide civil wars.

3. So you're saying that Clinical immortality exists because it doesn't? Umm wut?

4. 4th? I would imagine a race that blends the best of hover technology with the best of firepower and slaps it on a decent armored vehicle is considered the best. It doesn't rely on its speed, firepower, or armor alone but instead all three. While an Imperial armored coloumn needs a few days to get up to a city a hundred miles away through poor terrain, it might take a Hammerhead Pack a few hours.

As for tank tactics, you are correct. Which is why Imperial armor is terrible. WWII Allied Tank tactics were so horrible it might be the only factor that we lost all war until the end. Smaller, more organized tank "packs" are a far better way of going about armored warfare. They can support infantry, roll up on flanks, hunt armor, become low priority during air raids, etc etc. Saying that the maintenance is an issue is also wrong! Tank crews that don't work non-stop on their tanks utterly fail and suck in all ways. It's like an Infantryman who doesn't work on his rifle at all hours, if he isn't giving his baby love he isn't getting any in return.

And why would an Anti-Grav tank be grounded during bad weather? Most aircraft can fly in adverse weather but choose not too in the most terrible situations, and that's flying in the sky, a tank hovering over the ground would be fine. Considering all Tau vehicles are anti-grav, a storm would ground their entire military... yeah.. but no.

Edit: Sotrm? lol

BeefCakeSoup wrote:@Kan
1. Titans proved to be utterly pointless against Tau once counter-tactics were developed. Turns out, increasing the size of the bunker does little to negate the buster that pops it. Larger Titan /= to better Titan.

Titans are pointless in many cases to begin with. What's your point?

That the Tau are smarter for using aircraft? Because that's a fair point.

But as I seemingly have to say every freaking time we have this discussion:
The Tau had to divert an entire air campaign to kill a pair of Scout Titans.

Do you see how ridiculous that is, for something that is supposed to be so absurdly "effective"? The first few times Titans have been utilized by the Imperium against the Tau, they have made a huge impact in the role of them being used as 'terror weapons'. Requiring your enemy to shift entire battlegroups to counter a pair of lightly armed scouts is huge.

2. Battlesuits can't go in many of the areas Astartes can, they can kill everything an Astartes can though, with better weapon load outs too. They also make superior super soldiers since they aren't prone to galaxy wide civil wars.

Because the Tau aren't galaxy-wide, first off.
Secondly, let's not ignore the side effects we've seen so far in the Tau Fire Caste pilots of battlesuits. Tremors, paranoia, and general 'unease' that leads them to be prone to starting fights when out of their suits.

And really, weapon load-outs again?
Pretty much everything a Battlesuit can do, an Astartes can do by exchanging their bolter rounds for specialist rounds.

3. So you're saying that Clinical immortality exists because it doesn't? Umm wut?

I'm saying that you're wrong. Your statement of "Clinical immortality doesn't exist because Dreadnoughts aren't really alive or immortal and the Emperor is in stasis and the Golden Throne can't be replicated" is a flawed example.

4. 4th? I would imagine a race that blends the best of hover technology with the best of firepower and slaps it on a decent armored vehicle is considered the best. It doesn't rely on its speed, firepower, or armor alone but instead all three. While an Imperial armored column needs a few days to get up to a city a hundred miles away through poor terrain, it might take a Hammerhead Pack a few hours.

And that Hammerhead 'Shoal'(the designation they use for them) can be countered by most common infantry support weapons and the standard weapons loadouts on most Sentinel Scout walkers.

Leman Russes can't, however, be countered by anything that the standard Tau infantry or Pathfinders carry with them.
Hammerheads can be countered by Tankbusta rokkits, Missiles, Heavy Bolters, Autocannons, Lascannons, et al.

As for tank tactics, you are correct. Which is why Imperial armor is terrible. WWII Allied Tank tactics were so horrible it might be the only factor that we lost all war until the end. Smaller, more organized tank "packs" are a far better way of going about armored warfare. They can support infantry, roll up on flanks, hunt armor, become low priority during air raids, etc etc.

You know what else takes low priority during air raids?
Armored columns with anti-aircraft support. Interestingly enough, that's exactly what Imperial Armored Columns do. Hydras are delegated as necessary.
And yes, 'smaller, more organized tank packs are a better way of going about armored warfare'...right now. As I keep having to say: the Imperium can pump Leman Russes out like nobody's business. It's stupidly easy to learn how to operate, and it's stupidly easy to be repaired. If the main weapon is damaged, it can be removed relatively easily and replaced with something else.

Saying that the maintenance is an issue is also wrong! Tank crews that don't work non-stop on their tanks utterly fail and suck in all ways. It's like an Infantryman who doesn't work on his rifle at all hours, if he isn't giving his baby love he isn't getting any in return.

Okay. You're clearly not understanding this, so I'm going to walk you through this.
A Hammerhead cannot be repaired by its crew in the field. The crews of Hammerheads are Fire Caste, not Earth Caste. Earth Caste are the ones who know how to do the most basic of field repairs to the complicated machinery within the engines.

Imperial crews, however, know how to repair the majority of issues that will crop up on their vehicles. Engine failure? No problem to fix--plus you don't potentially flameout at 1600 feet, like the Hammerhead can during a drop from a Manta.

And why would an Anti-Grav tank be grounded during bad weather? Most aircraft can fly in adverse weather but choose not too in the most terrible situations, and that's flying in the sky, a tank hovering over the ground would be fine. Considering all Tau vehicles are anti-grav, a storm would ground their entire military... yeah.. but no.

Considering Hammerheads and Devilfish deploy initially via insertion from Mantas flying at around 1600 feet, and the 'anti-grav' tank is temperamental at best...then yeah. They would be fethed in foul weather that would actually ground aircraft in 40k.

iproxtaco wrote:Explain how this is not the case then.

Stealth suits.

Can go anywhere an SM in armour can (except the officers' club), give better protection, and have more mobility.

I agree, I was simply stating that every point was argued with little or no room for retort.

Imperial tech is different from Tau tech. Both have roughly the same roles fulfilled by entirely different forms of tech. Elite roles are fulffiled with power armoured goons on one side, mechs on the other. Super Heavy support is fulfilled by massive tanks and walkers on one side, massive flyers on the other.
Effectiveness varies as well. Titans and Super Heavy tanks are better at providing support as they carry more high powered weaponry, have superior armour, and equire less support to keep them safe. Battlesuits on the other hand are more mobile and can fulfill a wider variety of roles than a Space Marine can due to numbers and a larger number of heavy weapons per suit, and the relative speed of their production.

Kanluwen wrote:
Okay. You're clearly not understanding this, so I'm going to walk you through this.
A Hammerhead cannot be repaired by its crew in the field. The crews of Hammerheads are Fire Caste, not Earth Caste. Earth Caste are the ones who know how to do the most basic of field repairs to the complicated machinery within the engines.

Imperial crews, however, know how to repair the majority of issues that will crop up on their vehicles. Engine failure? No problem to fix--plus you don't potentially flameout at 1600 feet, like the Hammerhead can during a drop from a Manta.

I don't think there is any fluff basis for that statement. Yes the earth caste builds the tanks, but that dosen't mean they are required to maintain the tanks. The air cast has ground crews are made up of air cast members. That suggest that you don't need earth caste members to rearm and repair vehicles. It could easily be the case that tank operators have the know how to fix and troubleshoot problems with the mechanics (Maybe they have an A.I that helps).

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Okay. You're clearly not understanding this, so I'm going to walk you through this.
A Hammerhead cannot be repaired by its crew in the field. The crews of Hammerheads are Fire Caste, not Earth Caste. Earth Caste are the ones who know how to do the most basic of field repairs to the complicated machinery within the engines.

Imperial crews, however, know how to repair the majority of issues that will crop up on their vehicles. Engine failure? No problem to fix--plus you don't potentially flameout at 1600 feet, like the Hammerhead can during a drop from a Manta.

I don't think there is any fluff basis for that statement. Yes the earth caste builds the tanks, but that dosen't mean they are required to maintain the tanks. The air caste has ground crews are made up of air cast members.

And guess who builds the ships that the Air Caste ground crews maintain?
The Air Caste!

That suggest that you don't need earth caste members to rearm and repair vehicles. It could easily be the case that tank operators have the know how to fix and troubleshoot problems with the mechanics (Maybe they have an A.I that helps).

No, it doesn't.
If the Air Caste has ground crews that are made up of Air Caste members, it fully 100% reinforces my statement that the Earth Caste are the engineers who know how to repair the tanks.

It's also reinforced by, you know, the whole "Fire Caste is entirely dedicated to warfare" thing. They do not have mechanics in their ranks, they are 100% through and through fighters.

So no. The Fire Caste doesn't know how to repair their tanks in the field, mostly because as I said it's a stupidly complex machine and isn't generally put 'on the frontlines' but rather lurks in the wings and acts as an opportunist.

That's just speculation.

No less speculation than saying that Stealth Armor provides "more protection" than Astartes Power Armor.

Or ignoring the fact that the Imperium is actually reverse engineering Tau stealth tech for use on Astartes power armor in the Jericho Reach.

Kanluwen wrote:Or ignoring the fact that the Imperium is actually reverse engineering Tau stealth tech for use on Astartes power armor in the Jericho Reach.

Licensed / outsourced products cannot create canon, they can only work with it - so whilst certainly useful for speculation, I'd rather not state such things as facts.

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Or ignoring the fact that the Imperium is actually reverse engineering Tau stealth tech for use on Astartes power armor in the Jericho Reach.

Licensed / outsourced products cannot create canon, they can only work with it - so whilst certainly useful for speculation, I'd rather not state such things as facts.

Licensed/outsourced products being written by the creative staff licensing out can make canon.

Deal with it.

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Okay. You're clearly not understanding this, so I'm going to walk you through this.
A Hammerhead cannot be repaired by its crew in the field. The crews of Hammerheads are Fire Caste, not Earth Caste. Earth Caste are the ones who know how to do the most basic of field repairs to the complicated machinery within the engines.

Imperial crews, however, know how to repair the majority of issues that will crop up on their vehicles. Engine failure? No problem to fix--plus you don't potentially flameout at 1600 feet, like the Hammerhead can during a drop from a Manta.

I don't think there is any fluff basis for that statement. Yes the earth caste builds the tanks, but that dosen't mean they are required to maintain the tanks. The air caste has ground crews are made up of air cast members.

And guess who builds the ships that the Air Caste ground crews maintain?
The Air Caste!

That suggest that you don't need earth caste members to rearm and repair vehicles. It could easily be the case that tank operators have the know how to fix and troubleshoot problems with the mechanics (Maybe they have an A.I that helps).

No, it doesn't.
If the Air Caste has ground crews that are made up of Air Caste members, it fully 100% reinforces my statement that the Earth Caste are the engineers who know how to repair the tanks.

It's also reinforced by, you know, the whole "Fire Caste is entirely dedicated to warfare" thing. They do not have mechanics in their ranks, they are 100% through and through fighters.

So no. The Fire Caste doesn't know how to repair their tanks in the field, mostly because as I said it's a stupidly complex machine and isn't generally put 'on the frontlines' but rather lurks in the wings and acts as an opportunist.

Air caste ships are designed and built by the earth caste. The only example if have found is the custodian It says that the earth caste designed it. I guess you could try to argue that they only designed it and the air caste builds it, but I haven't see anything to suggest that they build their own ships. (If the air case built there own ships, then why dosen't the fire case build their own tanks?)

Warfare is a fair amount different for the tau then it would be for us. I think your assuming that technical skills wouldn't be taught or that they wouldn't be useful. That's hardly the case. A big part of fighting is learning how to use your equipment. Learning to maintain it, fix it and use it. For the tau, all three aspects would involve a high amount of tech literacy.

Finally tau tech is not stupidly complex (not when you compare it to a bolter). Sure it's advance, but that's because the tau are advanced. There has been nothing to suggest that tau tech is overly expensive or unreliable. If it was, then it wouldn't be used on their basic units. (Well we are at it, people who use stupidly complex super solders shouldn't throw stones. I mean they spit acid. )

Kanluwen wrote:Licensed/outsourced products being written by the creative staff licensing out can make canon.

Not according to GW officials.

Deal with it.

Look, I don't want to continue the debate here (we've already got another thread going if you want to add further remarks), I just think that you could mention the sources of your information, as for some people it may make a big difference if it appears in GW studio material or 3rd party books.

Kanluwen wrote:No less speculation than saying that Stealth Armor provides "more protection" than Astartes Power Armor.

Or ignoring the fact that the Imperium is actually reverse engineering Tau stealth tech for use on Astartes power armor in the Jericho Reach.

Stealth suits have a 3+ save and the stealth field gives them +1 to any cover save.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:No less speculation than saying that Stealth Armor provides "more protection" than Astartes Power Armor.

Or ignoring the fact that the Imperium is actually reverse engineering Tau stealth tech for use on Astartes power armor in the Jericho Reach.

Stealth suits have a 3+ save and the stealth field gives them +1 to any cover save.

Yeah...we're talking about background not game stats.

And Lynata: if you don't want to keep up the debate, then don't come in spouting that continuous line.
The FFG material is being written by the same people who writing the codex material. It's not somehow magically being changed from one to the other. Look at the credits before posting.

Kanluwen wrote:And Lynata: if you don't want to keep up the debate, then don't come in spouting that continuous line.
The FFG material is being written by the same people who writing the codex material. It's not somehow magically being changed from one to the other. Look at the credits before posting.

Hey, if you want to debate, we can do that too.

The FFG material is not written by the same people. It's one or two known writers (I remember Andy Chambers, though I'm sure there was one more) working together with lots of guys who have no history with GW whatsover.

Maybe you don't know how Codices are written, or any material being churned out by a large company that uses teams for such things:

GW Guy 1: Hey, let's do this!
GW Guy 2: No, that sucks.
GW Guy 3: Dude, you can't do that.
GW Guy 1: Alright...
---> Codex release contains consensus.

GW Guy 1 goes to work with FFG
GW Guy 1: Hey, let's do this!
FFG Guy 1: Cool!
FFG Guy 2: I don't know, if you think so...
---> RPG book contains consensus, yet is nothing like the consensus over at GW HQ.

Just as an example. It is just as possible that "GW Guy" recommended against something but was overruled. Or hey, maybe this really is working like the entire team at GW thinks about it - but you don't know that, so don't call something a fact when it isn't.

So yes, look at the credits before posting.

Deathwatch credits:
Owen Barnes, Alan Bligh, John French, and Andy Hoare are all GW staff.
Licensing Manager, Owen Rees is also GW staff and well known for having a fantastic Dark Angels army.
Head of Intellectual Property, Alan Merrett(http://www.blacklibrary.com/Authors/Alan-Merrett.html) is in charge of according to GW itself "developing the wealth of Games Workshop's intellectual property".

Deathwatch Rites of Battle credits:
Owen Barnes, Andy Chambers, Ben Counter, Graham Davey, Andy Hoare--all GW staff or have a history with GW.

Mark of the Xenos:
Barnes, Chambers, Alex Davy, Andy Hoare--editing by Graham Davey.

Your ball.

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Okay. You're clearly not understanding this, so I'm going to walk you through this.
A Hammerhead cannot be repaired by its crew in the field. The crews of Hammerheads are Fire Caste, not Earth Caste. Earth Caste are the ones who know how to do the most basic of field repairs to the complicated machinery within the engines.

Imperial crews, however, know how to repair the majority of issues that will crop up on their vehicles. Engine failure? No problem to fix--plus you don't potentially flameout at 1600 feet, like the Hammerhead can during a drop from a Manta.

I don't think there is any fluff basis for that statement. Yes the earth caste builds the tanks, but that dosen't mean they are required to maintain the tanks. The air caste has ground crews are made up of air cast members.

And guess who builds the ships that the Air Caste ground crews maintain?
The Air Caste!

That suggest that you don't need earth caste members to rearm and repair vehicles. It could easily be the case that tank operators have the know how to fix and troubleshoot problems with the mechanics (Maybe they have an A.I that helps).

No, it doesn't.
If the Air Caste has ground crews that are made up of Air Caste members, it fully 100% reinforces my statement that the Earth Caste are the engineers who know how to repair the tanks.

It's also reinforced by, you know, the whole "Fire Caste is entirely dedicated to warfare" thing. They do not have mechanics in their ranks, they are 100% through and through fighters.

So no. The Fire Caste doesn't know how to repair their tanks in the field, mostly because as I said it's a stupidly complex machine and isn't generally put 'on the frontlines' but rather lurks in the wings and acts as an opportunist.

Air caste ships are designed and built by the earth caste. The only example if have found is the custodian It says that the earth caste designed it. I guess you could try to argue that they only designed it and the air caste builds it, but I haven't see anything to suggest that they build their own ships. (If the air case built there own ships, then why dosen't the fire case build their own tanks?)

Warfare is a fair amount different for the tau then it would be for us. I think your assuming that technical skills wouldn't be taught or that they wouldn't be useful. That's hardly the case. A big part of fighting is learning how to use your equipment. Learning to maintain it, fix it and use it. For the tau, all three aspects would involve a high amount of tech literacy.

Finally tau tech is not stupidly complex (not when you compare it to a bolter). Sure it's advance, but that's because the tau are advanced. There has been nothing to suggest that tau tech is overly expensive or unreliable. If it was, then it wouldn't be used on their basic units. (Well we are at it, people who use stupidly complex super solders shouldn't throw stones. I mean they spit acid. )

Tau tech can be more complex than the Imperium's because they are smaller and can thus produce them on a large scale. The Imperium on the other hand can not give every one of their soldiers the best weapon possible because they are so much larger. The Imperiums weapons aren't needlessly complex they are remarkably simplistic because it is easier to mass produce, with the exception to the things marines have maybe which are mostly relics. They were saying that it is stupidly complex compared to Imperial standards like lasguns, which fluff wise is only a little less effective. The Tau only seem to have better tech because they can afford to field it all at their scale, but if you compared their top tech to the Imperiums, then the Imperium wins. I'm not saying they aren't advancing fast, because when the Imperium was as young as them they had much lower tech levels. The Imperium has peaked though and we need to see how far the Tau go before they do too.

Kanluwen wrote:Your ball.

You seem to believe that FFG's writing staff is = GW. It isn't. That many of the books have some level of input from a GW writer (as I have said before) does not change that each of the books contains the personal preferences of a dozen people with no connection to Games Workshop whatsoever, which in turn "blurs" the aforementioned consensus. You do not even know which parts of the books were written by whom, do you? Are you even aware that there are contradictions between FFG's own books? And I don't even mean the incompatibility of stats and mechanics between individual books, I'm talking fluff details like nephium changing between being an addition to enhance promethium (ItV) and being an extract of it (RH).

But you even have this when established GW writers go off to write their own Black Library novels without anyone else to "detract" them: Without the "team check" back at GW HQ, contradictions arise, simply because everyone has his own ideas - which is the one thing that all responses we've heard from GW and BL writers so far have in common. I've been argueing from your side for quite a long time, but in the end, I cannot change what they said, and neither can you. Though in the meantime, I do believe that this is actually for the better, for I've seen a number of silly ideas in 3rd party work which I would not wish to overwrite the existing canon which I deem as better written in these aspects.

As for Alan Merret: you mean the guy who said that "FFG had other ideas than the GW team" in the foreword? Hmm...

I also happen to have had a forum-based discussion with one of the writers who has written fluff texts for several of the FFG books, and he specifically pointed out he doesn't care much for GW canon when he thinks it's silly or doesn't make for a good narrative. Which is an understandable preference for an author (also see the interview with C.S. Goto here), but it simply leads to contradictions that *I* would not want to have. Some just like their setting blurred, I prefer it as clear and crisp as possible.

In the end, we've heard enough statements from the people who actually work on the franchise in question. We have even seen this policy in action when supposed canon from licensed material simply gets ignored in later GW books, because GW (as a company) didn't like it.

Exactly like Gav Thorpe says it works.

But hey, we can also just wait and see what the next GW books will look like, right?

Speaking of, in your mind, does the latest "Daemon Hunter" supplement override the 5th edition GK Codex? The people at FFG seemed to think like a lot of other fans concerning some of Matt Ward's new fluff.

Nicholas wrote:Tau tech can be more complex than the Imperium's because they are smaller and can thus produce them on a large scale. The Imperium on the other hand can not give every one of their soldiers the best weapon possible because they are so much larger. The Imperiums weapons aren't needlessly complex they are remarkably simplistic because it is easier to mass produce, with the exception to the things marines have maybe which are mostly relics. They were saying that it is stupidly complex compared to Imperial standards like lasguns, which fluff wise is only a little less effective. The Tau only seem to have better tech because they can afford to field it all at their scale, but if you compared their top tech to the Imperiums, then the Imperium wins. I'm not saying they aren't advancing fast, because when the Imperium was as young as them they had much lower tech levels. The Imperium has peaked though and we need to see how far the Tau go before they do too.

I mentioned this in another thread. (the tech thread) The reason the tau can give their troops such good weapons is because they know how to build them. It's not because they are small. There size really has little to do with it (smaller size also means smaller industrial base). Increasing there size actually lets them field more advanced tech because it lets them pool more sources into researcher.

Doesn't the IoM have a tank that carries tanks? If anyone deserves the title of stupidly complex, it's the IoM. A bolter fires a missile out of a cannon shell. A chain sword is a sword with a chainsaw. They have titans. If the square cube law has told us anything, it's that giant robots do not work. (Small ones do though.) The IoM is actually stupidly advanced. They are just really bad at using their tech.

Kan, you really crack me up sometimes man!

Diverting some air assets isn't a big deal when you are dominating the air war.

DGC and Taros saw the IoM putting forth nothing more than pitiful attempts at maintaining clear skies. Hell, on Dal'yth they actually had to divert orbital defense escorts just to make a push on a star port...

So a Titan rolling up, making the Tau divert a Manta and give it some air support doesn't really equate to a huge deal. What it does do is cripple enemy morale, as they watch a massive tool of propoganda get its ass handed to it by a real war machine.

Also, suggesting that Earth Caste are required to maintain Hammerheads is loler at best. There is nothing that even suggests that, if anything, the opposite is suggested. Fire Warriors live and train for warfare and nothing else. So by that logic, a Fire Warrior tank crew would very likely be bonded by ritual, experts at tank combat, know their vehicle beyond any doubt, and train with it constantly. Basic field repairs would very likely be trained... but even then, assuming they weren't, an Earth Caste repair is as simple as an A.I. piloted drone rolling up, fixing your tank in a few minutes and rolling out... how pro is that? Very.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:No less speculation than saying that Stealth Armor provides "more protection" than Astartes Power Armor.
Or ignoring the fact that the Imperium is actually reverse engineering Tau stealth tech for use on Astartes power armor in the Jericho Reach.

Stealth suits have a 3+ save and the stealth field gives them +1 to any cover save.

And for the record, those are LASGUN shots...

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
1. Tiger Shark > Titans. - Costs less, does more.
2. Battlesuits > Bio-engineered Troops. - No civil wars, materials required aren't becoming extinct.
3. Clinical Imoortality doesn't exist in the IoM. Dreads preserve but do not make immortal. The Emperor is anything but alive in the flesh and Space Marines don't live forever.

Ok, grab your nerdy glasses people. We're getting intellectual.

I'm sure you've heard this quite famous quote by Arthur C. Clarke: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".

Thing is, most Tau technology is not that outlandish. Imperial tech, on the other hand, sways wildly from primitive to outright magical.

Techheads and sci-fi aficionados would gladly tell you how do railguns, robot drones, smart missiles, targeting arrays, laser telemetry and active camo systems work. In fact, most Tau technologies are moderately believeable, only exceptions being fusion/plasma weapons, FTL, antigrav vehicles, armored waldoes and shield generators (and the ridiculously small and efficient power source required to keep the whole lot running), but even those are frequent sights in most military sci-fi, from The Forever War to Hammer's Slammers.

If the Tau are rooted in science fiction, the Imperium is pure science-fantasy: Walking constructs tall as skyscrapers bristling with weapons of mass destruction, drugs that allow the user to assume any shape, sentient tanks crewed by synthetic personae, miniature shield generators concealed in pieces of jewelry, swords charged with "energy fields" that cut through metal like cheese, dead soldiers encased in living fighting machines, commanders who live on for millenia, entire legions of genetically-engineered posthuman troopers who can spit acid and breathe in vacuum, weapons who get their power from occult or paranormal forces, human computers, wild biomechanicals for pleasure or punishment, exotic energy weapons that disintegrate their targets, personal teleporters... The list can go on for pages. Explaining the workings behind all these "technological" wonders is only possible in fiction.

So, we have an alien version of the Mobile Infantry, the hi-tech soldiers of the future in one side of the spectrum, and a transhuman society capable of using devices that circunvent all known laws of nature, The bastard child of Ming of Mongo and the United Federation of Planets on the other. And yet they COEXIST in the same fictional universe.

To keep things coherent, I can only think of one explanation: Some of the Imperium of Man's technologies are extremely advanced. Indistinguishable from magic.

True, the lowly IG grunt would still make the run for the trenches with a buffed-up fashlight in his hands and, if he's lucky, the promethium-belching amalgamation of 400 centuries of armored warfare covering its back. That's the beauty of the Imperium: While in most works of fantasy and science fiction such galactic empires are depicted as prosperous libertarian/socialist utopias (or, at worst, frigid oligarchies), Wh40k depicts an hyperadvanced posthuman society that has outlived its intended expiration date, a brutal regime in the verge of collapse where medioeval peasants wield impossible technologies. Cavemen in a Dyson Sphere.

To better understand and appreciate the IoM, let me recomend you a novel (two, actually) that might have inspired the original GW writers that conceived it: "The Pastel City" (1971) and "Viriconium Nights" (1985) by british sci-fi author M. John Harrison. Both have been republished recently, in an omnibus entitled "Knights of Viriconium". Believe me, it's a worthy read.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:On a purely tech scale I'd rank the Tau tied in second with Eldar behind Necrons.

Heh, if some Imperial Tech is undistinguishable from magic, most if not all Eldar tech is, simply put, magic. Psychoreactive armor, tanks made of living bone, ghostly golems, sailing spaceships propelled by arcane energies, mages and warlocks...

But, why robbing the Tau of their charm?. I started collecting first Orks, then Tau because I'd rather play a race that's struggling for greatness (or fun) than one that's already achieved its full potential and is merely fighting to stay alive for a few centuries more. Also, I know it's a matter of tastes, but I prefer my Tau fluff to be believeable and even mature, if such word applies to 40k, rather than yet another MarySue-ish pulpy juvenile powertrip.

TrollPie wrote:Indeed, someday they shall. For in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, GW finally advances the timeline.

No need to advance the timeline. Make the wrong guy write their Codex and you'll have the Space Pope strangling velociraptors with his bare hands. We now it CAN happen

nomotog wrote:

Nicholas wrote:Tau tech can be more complex than the Imperium's because they are smaller and can thus produce them on a large scale. The Imperium on the other hand can not give every one of their soldiers the best weapon possible because they are so much larger. The Imperiums weapons aren't needlessly complex they are remarkably simplistic because it is easier to mass produce, with the exception to the things marines have maybe which are mostly relics. They were saying that it is stupidly complex compared to Imperial standards like lasguns, which fluff wise is only a little less effective. The Tau only seem to have better tech because they can afford to field it all at their scale, but if you compared their top tech to the Imperiums, then the Imperium wins. I'm not saying they aren't advancing fast, because when the Imperium was as young as them they had much lower tech levels. The Imperium has peaked though and we need to see how far the Tau go before they do too.

I mentioned this in another thread. (the tech thread) The reason the tau can give their troops such good weapons is because they know how to build them. It's not because they are small. There size really has little to do with it (smaller size also means smaller industrial base). Increasing there size actually lets them field more advanced tech because it lets them pool more sources into researcher.

Doesn't the IoM have a tank that carries tanks? If anyone deserves the title of stupidly complex, it's the IoM. A bolter fires a missile out of a cannon shell. A chain sword is a sword with a chainsaw. They have titans. If the square cube law has told us anything, it's that giant robots do not work. (Small ones do though.) The IoM is actually stupidly advanced. They are just really bad at using their tech.

IIRC the Imperium can create weapons with similar tech to pulse rifles, they just don't because of they are more expensive to produce than a lasguns. instead they modified them to be the more powerful and gave only a few out, this became plasma weapons. They will be able to put out more advanced tech, but not to every single trooper in their army. Economically having more resources to work with will not give them the ability to give all their soldiers their best stuff because they will also need more soldiers. They will most likely have pulse rifles as standard weapons still as resources and soldiers would be directly related so tech level would stay roughly the same. They will be able to add those newer weapons to a few of their soldiers like the IOM, but not to everyone. My point being that they seem to be more advanced than they are because the best they have can be given to everyone of their soldiers while IOM can not. If they reach the scale of the IOM only a few of their soldiers their more advanced tech will not always be deployed.

Some of the things IOM does can be awesome and make you facepalm at the same time But not because it's complex, but because it's simple. Bolters round are complex, but effective not complex for stupid reasons, the gun itself is even more simple. Chaniswords are also simple at the tech level of the age, complex now maybe, but in a world with power weapons and manomolecular blades it's simple and efficient. Lasgun is the pinnacle of simplicity and efficiency. However awesome they are, I will admit, on a practicality scale the Crassus and Titans are

Brother Coa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:No less speculation than saying that Stealth Armor provides "more protection" than Astartes Power Armor.
Or ignoring the fact that the Imperium is actually reverse engineering Tau stealth tech for use on Astartes power armor in the Jericho Reach.

Stealth suits have a 3+ save and the stealth field gives them +1 to any cover save.

And for the record, those are LASGUN shots...

Tad confused here. Are you saying that the armor is strong or weak? Because it dosen't look like the shots are doing anything. They also don't have solid trails that suggest some kind of slug weapon.

nomotog wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:No less speculation than saying that Stealth Armor provides "more protection" than Astartes Power Armor.
Or ignoring the fact that the Imperium is actually reverse engineering Tau stealth tech for use on Astartes power armor in the Jericho Reach.

Stealth suits have a 3+ save and the stealth field gives them +1 to any cover save.

And for the record, those are LASGUN shots...

Tad confused here. Are you saying that the armor is strong or weak? Because it dosen't look like the shots are going anything, but scraping paint. They also don't have solid trails that suggest some kind of slug weapon.

Weak as those las shots are penetrating it as the holes and smoke billowing out of it's side would suggest.

Nicholas wrote:IIRC the Imperium can create weapons with similar tech to pulse rifles, they just don't because of they are more expensive to produce than a lasguns. instead they modified them to be the more powerful and gave only a few out, this became plasma weapons. They will be able to put out more advanced tech, but not to every single trooper in their army. Economically having more resources to work with will not give them the ability to give all their soldiers their best stuff because they will also need more soldiers. They will most likely have pulse rifles as standard weapons still as resources and soldiers would be directly related so tech level would stay roughly the same. They will be able to add those newer weapons to a few of their soldiers like the IOM, but not to everyone. My point being that they seem to be more advanced than they are because the best they have can be given to everyone of their soldiers while IOM can not. If they reach the scale of the IOM only a few of their soldiers their more advanced tech will not always be deployed.

Some of the things IOM does can be awesome and make you facepalm at the same time But not because it's complex, but because it's simple. Bolters round are complex, but effective not complex for stupid reasons, the gun itself is even more simple. Chaniswords are also simple at the tech level of the age, complex now maybe, but in a world with power weapons and manomolecular blades it's simple and efficient. Lasgun is the pinnacle of simplicity and efficiency. However awesome they are, I will admit, on a practicality scale the Crassus and Titans are

I always figured they used lasguns because they didn't want to pay for ammo.

I have to disagree with you again on the cost issue. Yes as the tau expand, they will need more people, but the square cube law comes up again. As they expand, the number of border worlds that need guarding will be fewer then the number of worlds that produce things. So again they will actually be able to make more advance weapons because they will have more wolds making these guns.

Nicholas wrote:
Weak as those las shots are penetrating it as the holes and smoke billowing out of it's side would suggest.

Ah. I did not notice that. Would be nice to see the whole thing. Then we can count the shots and get a guess of armor quality.

They won't simply have to guard those border planets, if they did it would be a disaster if say an ork waagh or Imperial crusade broke through and got a foothold. Not to mention many of the ships, having warp travel and all, could bypass those border planets easily.

Nicholas wrote:They won't simply have to guard those border planets, if they did it would be a disaster if say an ork waagh or Imperial crusade broke through and got a foothold. Not to mention many of the ships, having warp travel and all, could bypass those border planets easily.

Ya I thought of that too. If warp travel works in such a way that any planet is a border planet. The number of troops you need only grows at the rate you add new planets, so ya they would still be able to field the same level or more. Are you getting what I am saying here, or do I need to pull out the charts and graphs?

nomotog wrote:

Nicholas wrote:They won't simply have to guard those border planets, if they did it would be a disaster if say an ork waagh or Imperial crusade broke through and got a foothold. Not to mention many of the ships, having warp travel and all, could bypass those border planets easily.

Ya I thought of that too. If warp travel works in such a way that any planet is a border planet. The number of troops you need only grows at the rate you add new planets, so ya they would still be able to field the same level or more. Are you getting what I am saying here, or do I need to pull out the charts and graphs?

I'm saying that while they will advance in tech they will not be able to field it in every single battle. Their standard weapon will most likely be pulse rifles for ever, but they will have better weapons maybe given to one guy in a squad or on one ship or tank. They seem more advanced now because pulse rifles and railguns are basically the height of their tech and can be given to every unit. As in their basic equipment is better than IOM but the IOM still have much better tech just not on every single soldier