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A single list is much cheaper than any standard sized army from any gw core game. ...but you won't be satisfied with just one list. Once you've had a taste it'll get into your bloodstream and the craving will set in. "Just one more character jack and those two casters and I'm done, I swear!"
"Yea, I have three factions now. It's fine, one is mercs and one is a hordes faction."

There isn't a lot of rules lawyering per se as most rules are pretty clear or are cleared up pretty quickly on their forums.

Depending on your meta there will be dramatically more games that you lose before you even knew you were playing than you'll be used to with 40k.

People throw "balanced" around a lot with Warmahordes. I don't really feel that it's especially balanced, despite the worrying cadre of shrill fanboys that don't seem to think PP can get a rule wrong.
Each faction has powerful options, but there are also a lot of options that you simply can't take and be competitive if your opponents are half decent. You'll notice a lot of very similar lists if you peruse their forums, and every faction has it's shortlist of "mandatory" models.

Dais wrote:A single list is much cheaper than any standard sized army from any gw core game. ...but you won't be satisfied with just one list. Once you've had a taste it'll get into your bloodstream and the craving will set in. "Just one more character jack and those two casters and I'm done, I swear!"
"Yea, I have three factions now. It's fine, one is mercs and one is a hordes faction."

I can see that happening. But also consider how many people have multiple WH/40k lists. Myself I was going for a SKaven list, Space wolf, ork and wood elf. So really no difference there.

plastictrees wrote:There isn't a lot of rules lawyering per se as most rules are pretty clear or are cleared up pretty quickly on their forums.

Depending on your meta there will be dramatically more games that you lose before you even knew you were playing than you'll be used to with 40k.

People throw "balanced" around a lot with Warmahordes. I don't really feel that it's especially balanced, despite the worrying cadre of shrill fanboys that don't seem to think PP can get a rule wrong.
Each faction has powerful options, but there are also a lot of options that you simply can't take and be competitive if your opponents are half decent. You'll notice a lot of very similar lists if you peruse their forums, and every faction has it's shortlist of "mandatory" models.

Balanced is something I will see with my own eyes. That being said, wh/40k is FAR from balanced I mean hell DE(40k) went what 10 years with out a new codex and suffered how badly? On the front of lists, of course there's power house lists and of course I'm going to see similar lists this is the nature of a statistical battle game. Vampire counts comes to mind, the only core choice worth taking is ghouls and evey army in order to be somewhat competitive better have a grave guard death star. so far the negitive points I'm seeing are all just as rampant in GW games.

I've thought of switching over to warmahordes from 40k. I have some warmachine and a LOT of 40k. I like both games a lot but hate GW to a degree and PP is nice.

Hawk wrote:I've thought of switching over to warmahordes from 40k. I have some warmachine and a LOT of 40k. I like both games a lot but hate GW to a degree and PP is nice.

Having a large stock of minis would make the switch harder no doubt. I have a small collection which makes it easier to get out of. GW hate is the reason 100%.

all I have to say about GW's recent actions is I realize I'm a dinosaur and that civility, manners and plain common courtesy are a thing of the past but still, on the scale of people peeing on your leg, that's peeing above the knee

Soverntear wrote:

Dais wrote:A single list is much cheaper than any standard sized army from any gw core game. ...but you won't be satisfied with just one list. Once you've had a taste it'll get into your bloodstream and the craving will set in. "Just one more character jack and those two casters and I'm done, I swear!"
"Yea, I have three factions now. It's fine, one is mercs and one is a hordes faction."

I can see that happening. But also consider how many people have multiple WH/40k lists. Myself I was going for a SKaven list, Space wolf, ork and wood elf. So really no difference there.

plastictrees wrote:There isn't a lot of rules lawyering per se as most rules are pretty clear or are cleared up pretty quickly on their forums.

Depending on your meta there will be dramatically more games that you lose before you even knew you were playing than you'll be used to with 40k.

People throw "balanced" around a lot with Warmahordes. I don't really feel that it's especially balanced, despite the worrying cadre of shrill fanboys that don't seem to think PP can get a rule wrong.
Each faction has powerful options, but there are also a lot of options that you simply can't take and be competitive if your opponents are half decent. You'll notice a lot of very similar lists if you peruse their forums, and every faction has it's shortlist of "mandatory" models.

Balanced is something I will see with my own eyes. That being said, wh/40k is FAR from balanced I mean hell DE(40k) went what 10 years with out a new codex and suffered how badly? On the front of lists, of course there's power house lists and of course I'm going to see similar lists this is the nature of a statistical battle game. Vampire counts comes to mind, the only core choice worth taking is ghouls and evey army in order to be somewhat competitive better have a grave guard death star. so far the negitive points I'm seeing are all just as rampant in GW games.

See, you've got the defensive anti-GW patter down and arrogant dismissal of friendly advice, you just need to get your irrational hatred of plastic models badge and you'll be a fully fledged Warmachine Cub Scout.

plastictrees wrote:

Soverntear wrote:

Dais wrote:A single list is much cheaper than any standard sized army from any gw core game. ...but you won't be satisfied with just one list. Once you've had a taste it'll get into your bloodstream and the craving will set in. "Just one more character jack and those two casters and I'm done, I swear!"
"Yea, I have three factions now. It's fine, one is mercs and one is a hordes faction."

I can see that happening. But also consider how many people have multiple WH/40k lists. Myself I was going for a SKaven list, Space wolf, ork and wood elf. So really no difference there.

plastictrees wrote:There isn't a lot of rules lawyering per se as most rules are pretty clear or are cleared up pretty quickly on their forums.

Depending on your meta there will be dramatically more games that you lose before you even knew you were playing than you'll be used to with 40k.

People throw "balanced" around a lot with Warmahordes. I don't really feel that it's especially balanced, despite the worrying cadre of shrill fanboys that don't seem to think PP can get a rule wrong.
Each faction has powerful options, but there are also a lot of options that you simply can't take and be competitive if your opponents are half decent. You'll notice a lot of very similar lists if you peruse their forums, and every faction has it's shortlist of "mandatory" models.

Balanced is something I will see with my own eyes. That being said, wh/40k is FAR from balanced I mean hell DE(40k) went what 10 years with out a new codex and suffered how badly? On the front of lists, of course there's power house lists and of course I'm going to see similar lists this is the nature of a statistical battle game. Vampire counts comes to mind, the only core choice worth taking is ghouls and evey army in order to be somewhat competitive better have a grave guard death star. so far the negitive points I'm seeing are all just as rampant in GW games.

See, you've got the defensive anti-GW patter down and arrogant dismissal of friendly advice, you just need to get your irrational hatred of plastic models badge and you'll be a fully fledged Warmachine Cub Scout.

Wow some is a bit easy to offend. I merely was making direct comparisons between the systems. Both are valid examples of GW not releasing balanced list options across the board. At no point did I dismiss your advice, I simply retorted with examples in 40k and fantasy that draw out your points.

Now if you would like to offer valid and USEFUL information to the thread that is intended to help players who are thinking of moving over to Warmachine, please do continue too. Up until your last post you were quite helpful and provided great information. The only difference between out posts is you stating there are mandatory things to take in the factions of warmachine and me stating that vampire counts also has mandatory things to include in a list A.K.A a direct parallel in the system I am moving out of and you seem to think I'm a fan boy.

At no point did I say that these were issues that were unique to Warmachine. I'm not sure how omitting any negatives that might also be true in Warhammer is useful. Many people either don't play Warhammer or play in a small group of friends that might not have experienced the impact of very competitive play on list building.
PPs support of tournament play (and to a lesser extent some of the page 5 mythos that still clings to Warmachine) tends to make metas a little less "friendly" than they might be for Warhammer. This isn't necessarily a bad thing at all, but it can come as a surprise, to the extent that people have been put off the game entirely after initial struggles.

plastictrees wrote:At no point did I say that these were issues that were unique to Warmachine. I'm not sure how omitting any negatives that might also be true in Warhammer is useful. Many people either don't play Warhammer or play in a small group of friends that might not have experienced the impact of very competitive play on list building.
PPs support of tournament play (and to a lesser extent some of the page 5 mythos that still clings to Warmachine) tends to make metas a little less "friendly" than they might be for Warhammer. This isn't necessarily a bad thing at all, but it can come as a surprise, to the extent that people have been put off the game entirely after initial struggles.

Plastictrees, that's much more what i was looking for. Sorry if i seemed rude in the last post, but i am trying to make this as constructive as possible and well as we all knwo on the net, one comment can turn in to a blizzard of sillyness. I know you did nto state they we're uinique issues to warmachine, I was just pointing out that it is in fact a flaw inherent in most war games and my experience is mostly with GW so that was the example I drew upon. The high competitive edge caused by page 5 and the PP tourny system(i have no idea about it so i'm going to assume its similar to page 5) will take some adjustment, I'm hoping theres at least a couple people at my FLGS that are willing to tone it down a tiny bit when i first start. But if not, then i get stomped and learn from the experience. It's similar in MTG very unforgiving to the newbie I think i played for a few weeks before i scored my first win.

Again sorry if i came off prickish or unappreciative of your input to this thread.

Laughing Man wrote:
The Feralgeist is extremely useful for its points. It basically turns a dead warbeast into a giant super solo, while the Thrullg is the Hordes equivalent of eEiryss: A great utility model for stripping focus and upkeep spells off models. The Thrullg is especially useful in Blindwater, as there's plenty of medium bases to protect it from being shot right off the bat.

The Feralgeist is cheap---I didn't realize he was a point! Also, I freely admit I'm just starting to dip my toes into the water (har har pun)---and everything I'm thinking out loud right is now is complete theory hammer. So I appreciate the feedback of someone who has experience in the game!

The Thrullg though---that just looks like it would disrupt/strip focus then get splatted with the Def/AV it's packing. Nothing really popped up in a cursory Google---what has your experience been using him (considering he's 3 points!).

AgeOfEgos wrote:

The Thrullg though---that just looks like it would disrupt/strip focus then get splatted with the Def/AV it's packing. Nothing really popped up in a cursory Google---what has your experience been using him (considering he's 3 points!).

If it's managed to strip focus then your opponents caster is probably about to get his teeth kicked in, so the Thrullg's durability next turn is moot. He works well with this sort of list as you have plenty of med+ bases to hide him behind for the first couple of turns and then by turn three your opponent might have other things to worry about. Like anything else in Warmachine though, if your opponent really wants him dead it's probably going to happen. (Magical weapons can also be super handy).




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Soverntear wrote: The high competitive edge caused by page 5 and the PP tourny system(i have no idea about it so i'm going to assume its similar to page 5) will take some adjustment, I'm hoping theres at least a couple people at my FLGS that are willing to tone it down a tiny bit when i first start. But if not, then i get stomped and learn from the experience. It's similar in MTG very unforgiving to the newbie I think i played for a few weeks before i scored my first win.

Again sorry if i came off prickish or unappreciative of your input to this thread.

No, it's possible that I'm a little highly strung from newborn baby sleeplessness. Or I'm a jerk. Either way conciliatory man-hugs all round!

I think just knowing that you're probably going to get your ass kicked early on mitigates the ass kicking somewhat.

Yeah, I lost my first ten or so games in a row of Warmachine before it "clicked" how I was supposed to play.
Also, there is a certain amount of "This unit good with this caster" going on that I didn't get for a while. There are no-brainer lists and then there are non-optimised lists. I'd say it's slightly less obvious than in 40K, but there are definitely synergies and stuff within factions.

The "everybody gets some love" release schedule is much, much better though- nobody gets left out of an expansion and it's a great feeling.

AoE: The FG is really good in a beast heavy list. He can hop from dead beast to dead beast, giving you that critical extra turn of attacks with each of them. Just watch out for him getting pegged early on with spells and stuff.

I haven't played Thrullg, but I would imagine he's a finesse peice. You'd have to have something "lined up" to take advantage of his special rules, and it's more than likely he'll die after he does his thing. But if his death allows an assassination, then it's alllll good.

Warmachine and Hordes are all about options on the table rather than options at list building. You pick your units caster, and get going. But once you put them down on the table, there are an array of buffs, debuffs, special abilities and feats that can make them better or worse in almost any situation. My Trollblood Kriel Warriors can go from cheap chaff to Uber-Tarpit with the right buffs. My slow and lumbering Dire Trolls can become speedy missiles with the correct combo-ing. (Okay, Trolls are a slightly unfair advantage since their whole shtick is synergy, but the same is true maybe to a lesser extent of every faction).
Because of that, I've found winning comes down a bit more to your skill on the table at making the right choices and plays than your skill at list building (which is a bit more of a predictor in 40K). My biggest successes have been with balanced lists that combine a bit of everything. That could just be my caster preference and playstyle though.

plastictrees wrote:People throw "balanced" around a lot with Warmahordes. I don't really feel that it's especially balanced, despite the worrying cadre of shrill fanboys that don't seem to think PP can get a rule wrong.

PP gets plenty wrong, but they get far, far, faaaaaaaarrrrr more right.

WM/H as a game system doesn't reward spam in the slightest, resulting in lists that are more diversified and combined arms from the get-go. And balance-wise... well, the top tiers of play (sanctioned tournaments) show very good representation between Khador, Menoth, Cryx, Legion, and even Retribution (the faction largely complained about having the poorest warcasters and inability to deal with stealth). I believe Skorne actually placed in a relatively large regional Steamroller event this year as well, which would make 6 factions of the 'Big Nine' tournament viable. Cygnar doesn't seem to do great in tournaments, but they're currently leading the national summer League play (does GW run summer leagues? lolol) so clearly people have figured out how to make stuff work there as well. Perfect? No, but a game system that you can walk into and only have difficulty with 2 of 9 factions from a fundamental gameplay perspective? That's a damn sight better than most game systems can provide.

Each faction has powerful options, but there are also a lot of options that you simply can't take and be competitive if your opponents are half decent. You'll notice a lot of very similar lists if you peruse their forums, and every faction has it's shortlist of "mandatory" models.

This is far more true of some factions relative to others. For example, Menoth is near-always going to have its core support units of Choir, Book, and Vassal. Probably Avatar in there as well. That's a solid 18 points spent right there, common to most lists. By definition 35 point lists are going to look pretty similar. Once you get to 50, however, which is the common value for Masters, League, and Steamroller events, then you see more diversification.

The 'net-decking' is also pretty over-hyped in many cases. You hear all the time how Skorne only ever plays Molik Karn bullet and if a list doesn't have Molik Karn then it's destined to lose. But the top-tier player winning competitive events is ignoring MK entirely and going for attrition warlocks like Zaal and Mordikaar. A lot of posts on the forums are lists based around the Makedas and MK, and tutorials on how to execute the MK bullet because it's such a well known Skorne Weapon of Caster Destruction, but when rubber hits pavement the 'best' choose something else.

And, of course, different casters make the same unit play completely differently. This is actually a good thing for new players, as they can buy, for example, a full unit of Winterguard, a Spriggan, and Kayazy Assassins and now have viable lists but dynamically different playstyles with pIrusk, pButcher, Old Witch, and eSorscha.


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Da Boss wrote:
I haven't played Thrullg, but I would imagine he's a finesse peice. You'd have to have something "lined up" to take advantage of his special rules, and it's more than likely he'll die after he does his thing. But if his death allows an assassination, then it's alllll good.

The only warlock I ever used Thrullg repeatedly with was eLylith. Nothing in the entire army had a weapon greater than POW/P&S 16 (eLylith, 2x Ravagores, Bolt Thrower, Gators, and some other single small model bases) so Thrullg was necessary as an insurance policy versus fighty casters camping focus or arcane shielded (or equivalent) heavy warjacks that could shrug off boosted POW 15s.

With more in-your-face warlock/lists, I found Thrullg lacking as he would either get shot to death trying to stay up front with my offensive units or contribute very little to my fighty Heavies (Bronzeback Titan cares not for your ARM21!).

sourclams wrote:

PP gets plenty wrong, but they get far, far, faaaaaaaarrrrr more right.

WM/H as a game system doesn't reward spam in the slightest, resulting in lists that are more diversified and combined arms from the get-go. And balance-wise... well, the top tiers of play (sanctioned tournaments) show very good representation between Khador, Menoth, Cryx, Legion, and even Retribution (the faction largely complained about having the poorest warcasters and inability to deal with stealth). I believe Skorne actually placed in a relatively large regional Steamroller event this year as well, which would make 6 factions of the 'Big Nine' tournament viable. Cygnar doesn't seem to do great in tournaments, but they're currently leading the national summer League play (does GW run summer leagues? lolol) so clearly people have figured out how to make stuff work there as well. Perfect? No, but a game system that you can walk into and only have difficulty with 2 of 9 factions from a fundamental gameplay perspective? That's a damn sight better than most game systems can provide.

I think cross faction balance is pretty good, balance within each faction is lacking IMO. Again (again) I'm not saying that other games don't have problems.

sourclams wrote:This is far more true of some factions relative to others. For example, Menoth is near-always going to have its core support units of Choir, Book, and Vassal. Probably Avatar in there as well. That's a solid 18 points spent right there, common to most lists. By definition 35 point lists are going to look pretty similar. Once you get to 50, however, which is the common value for Masters, League, and Steamroller events, then you see more diversification.

The 'net-decking' is also pretty over-hyped in many cases. You hear all the time how Skorne only ever plays Molik Karn bullet and if a list doesn't have Molik Karn then it's destined to lose. But the top-tier player winning competitive events is ignoring MK entirely and going for attrition warlocks like Zaal and Mordikaar. A lot of posts on the forums are lists based around the Makedas and MK, and tutorials on how to execute the MK bullet because it's such a well known Skorne Weapon of Caster Destruction, but when rubber hits pavement the 'best' choose something else.

To elaborate on my point, I find the repetition and copy-paste advice on the forums annoying more than anything else. You can go a little bit crazy jumping between Battle College, where everything is the greatest choice ever, and the PP forums where if you don't take the same eight models you're crippling yourself. There's plenty of reason to ignore all of that, but that doesn't mean there aren't a lot very powerful choices that outshine other options in that faction, it just might not matter outside of a certain level of play.

If you are going to jump into warmachine, make sure you take care of all the tokens/templates and card holders that you think you may need. It makes life alot easier.

(And don't just go for the PP token sets, talk to some of your local players to see what they use and what is "accepted" by the local meta/group.)

For example, I see alot of people using brass rings for smoke templates and such, and then quarter sized tokens with damage boxes printed on them to set next to multi-wound models to make it easier to see which ones have taken damage. These little things can take some of the "guesswork" out of what is going on in the game and make for less discrepancies.

Also, having a base sized template for placing and tramples/direction also really stops those "hurt feelings" when both players can't agree on the correct angle/direction/etc. Finally, make sure you mark on your models bases where their front arcs are. Most players do this with a paint dot or line painted on the edge of the base (or some paint the entire edge a different color). Facing plays a much bigger role in WM/H then 40k, and most models have their heads turned one way and their bodies another, making it sometimes unclear which way they are facing without marking it on the base.

The game is all about combos, synergy, and "deck building".

In many ways it emulates CCGs in miniatures form. IF you like/hate M:TG you will probably feel a similar way in regards to Warmachine.

Also the Warmachine community as a whole is heavily competition/tourney focused. It isn't a game that is usuaally played casually. Even pick up games tend to be ultra-competative. Warmachine could easily be called "sportsmachine". That may or may not be a good thing depending on how you approach gaming.

The lack of customization of models and amount of non-painted models you might encounter can also be off-putting to those used to the emphasis the GW community puts on such things.

It is a great game. but very complex in terms of strategies, synergies/combs, etc. Expect to lose alot in the beginning. The game rewards those who are dedicated and competative. It is not a game for bandwagon/casual gamers...

plastictrees wrote:

No, it's possible that I'm a little highly strung from newborn baby sleeplessness. Or I'm a jerk. Either way conciliatory man-hugs all round!

I think just knowing that you're probably going to get your ass kicked early on mitigates the ass kicking somewhat.

Awww, congrats on the little one! Did you have a Boy or a Girl? No need to apologize, it's a stressful time in the little ones life and im sure like most they are making their stress your stress Man-hugs right back at yah, also running chest bump would have been acceptable.

Having the info will soften the blow, I'm excited to exact my vengeance n those who beat the snot out of me later on in my warmahordes career.

robertsjf wrote:

disdainful wrote:I've found in my store that a lot of the more competitive players initially went to WM/H for the stronger competition, and now that GW has been stumbling through some of their latest head-scratching moves, we're seeing a big influx of casual players making the switch as well.

-Dis.

I'm curious, how has that worked out?

Our first big wave of new blood into WM/H happened right after my store opened; I came from a GW background but I was big into the PP games as well, so I made sure there was the full range available and I expect that the availability was one of the driving factors in the first wave. We built up a large crowd that plays on multiple days during the week, and that maintained very well. A lot of competitive players came over for the leaner tournament format (our guy isn't a PG and runs a super-strict SR event with no loose ends), but we also have a big group of casual players who liked the setting/minis/"something new" vibe and have been having a lot of fun. That group in particular has been bolstered a lot by the recent GW moves. On any given game night you'll find guys fumbling their way through a battlebox game, some casual guys throwing dice, and competitive players testing lists with round timers and no take-backs.

The delineation between the knives-out serious players and the casual guys is pretty clear; most of the more bloody-minded have a wider variety of models to choose from and will usually pull out some softer gloves when squaring off against a newer guy or a casual player, and most of us have adopted the notion of coming to game night with a couple list options in mind so that someone never gets stuck in a terrible match-up because they only brought one list.

sourclams wrote:The 'net-decking' is also pretty over-hyped in many cases. You hear all the time how Skorne only ever plays Molik Karn bullet and if a list doesn't have Molik Karn then it's destined to lose. But the top-tier player winning competitive events is ignoring MK entirely and going for attrition warlocks like Zaal and Mordikaar. A lot of posts on the forums are lists based around the Makedas and MK, and tutorials on how to execute the MK bullet because it's such a well known Skorne Weapon of Caster Destruction, but when rubber hits pavement the 'best' choose something else.

I wouldn't say they always choose something else; a top-tier player running a top-tier list is going to be a brutal fight for anyone, whether or not they know what's coming. I will agree that top players often have off-the-wall stuff from the perspective of the net-deck majority, since they can 'see the matrix' better and plan for the expected metagame more effectively. We have a local Menoth player who runs a monstrous Testament of Menoth list as his alternate in tournaments, and he does very well with it, thanks in no small part to the fact that most people probably haven't seen Testament across the table from them! It's the same story with folks like Mordikaar. He's so rare, the one game you have against him in an event is a rough fight; you're constantly on the back foot since you don't know what he does!

Zaal, however, that guy's a boss! We all learned real quick what he does, and we see him a lot.

-Dis.

sourclams wrote:WM/H as a game system doesn't reward spam in the slightest, resulting in lists that are more diversified and combined arms from the get-go. And balance-wise... well, the top tiers of play (sanctioned tournaments) show very good representation between Khador, Menoth, Cryx, Legion, and even Retribution (the faction largely complained about having the poorest warcasters and inability to deal with stealth). I believe Skorne actually placed in a relatively large regional Steamroller event this year as well, which would make 6 factions of the 'Big Nine' tournament viable. Cygnar doesn't seem to do great in tournaments, but they're currently leading the national summer League play (does GW run summer leagues? lolol) so clearly people have figured out how to make stuff work there as well. Perfect? No, but a game system that you can walk into and only have difficulty with 2 of 9 factions from a fundamental gameplay perspective? That's a damn sight better than most game systems can provide.

Don't forget the Mercs or Minions, sourclams, or both Lord Carver and Drake MacBain will be after your head

On a slightly more serious note, where do you think the various pacts/contracts fit into the power structure?

The various Merc contracts are fairly powerful, especially theme lists like Ashlynn's and Shae's, but the Minion pacts are currently suffering from a lack of options. That's not to say they aren't competitive (I've run into a couple nasty Carver lists recently), but they'll typically run into the same problems every time. With Domination on the horizon, with its new casters and warbeasts, this will probably be alleviated.

Mercs and Minions are a little bit like the Mini-dex armies from 3rd ed. Limited in scope but very good at what they do.

Laughing Man wrote:The various Merc contracts are fairly powerful, especially theme lists like Ashlynn's and Shae's, but the Minion pacts are currently suffering from a lack of options. That's not to say they aren't competitive (I've run into a couple nasty Carver lists recently), but they'll typically run into the same problems every time. With Domination on the horizon, with its new casters and warbeasts, this will probably be alleviated.

Think Blindwater will get some more love? I've read the Hordes book a couple of times---and tried theoryhammering the Blindwater army lists out best I can---I can see me struggling with Heavy Jacks though. If it's alive, I'll eat it I think---but don't know about Heavies...

Your experiences?

I expect Blindwater will be treated the same as the Farrow. PP tend to be pretty evenhanded with releases.

Laughing Man wrote:The various Merc contracts are fairly powerful, especially theme lists like Ashlynn's and Shae's, but the Minion pacts are currently suffering from a lack of options. That's not to say they aren't competitive (I've run into a couple nasty Carver lists recently), but they'll typically run into the same problems every time. With Domination on the horizon, with its new casters and warbeasts, this will probably be alleviated.

Basically, this.

I know a good 40k player who wants to get into WM/H and really likes Gators. We've explained to him that he'll be able to play, certainly, but he simply won't have as many options as the 'Big 9' which will make his gameplay a little predictable, and therefore less competitive.

Farrow are in a similar place, although with a unit or two more to pick from.

I imagine that pigs n' gators will be fully viable in time, but right now I think they're very much a secondary faction.

Go over to PP, give it a whirl.

If you enjoy smaller games, with superior sculpts, you will never look back.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Laughing Man wrote:The various Merc contracts are fairly powerful, especially theme lists like Ashlynn's and Shae's, but the Minion pacts are currently suffering from a lack of options. That's not to say they aren't competitive (I've run into a couple nasty Carver lists recently), but they'll typically run into the same problems every time. With Domination on the horizon, with its new casters and warbeasts, this will probably be alleviated.

Think Blindwater will get some more love? I've read the Hordes book a couple of times---and tried theoryhammering the Blindwater army lists out best I can---I can see me struggling with Heavy Jacks though. If it's alive, I'll eat it I think---but don't know about Heavies...

Your experiences?

Oh, they'll definitely get more love. We know they're getting an Undead caster already, and from what we've seen of the ham, gators should get a couple more choices as well. I'm kind of hoping for a unit of Anuras myself, as I really like the frog aesthetic, but a bogrin unit would be pretty damn sweet too. There's a ton of options in the fluff, honestly.

As for dealing with heavies, you're fielding a list with one of the best power attackers in the game and the ability to spawn shallow water on a whim. If heavy jacks are a problem for you, you're doing it wrong.

Laughing Man wrote:As for dealing with heavies, you're fielding a list with one of the best power attackers in the game and the ability to spawn shallow water on a whim. If heavy jacks are a problem for you, you're doing it wrong.

Not disagreeing 'whole clothe' with your comment, but:

The most jack-heavy faction, Menoth, is virtually always immune to knockdown, virtually all the time.

Irusk's Superiority-ed Behemoth (or whatever) is immune to KD, Karchev's battlegroup is immune to KD when B2B and under Sidearms.

Neither Carnivean nor Titan Warbeasts care about marshland.

And yeah, I'm pulling the most favorable specific examples to create this counterpoint, but when Barnabas' entire schtick vs high armor is knocking it down or drowning it, there are a lot of problems with that schtick when you run into one of the above.

Now, Calaban's battlegroup with Parasite can tear through even Menoth Templars, but that results in some of the predictability due to lack of options cited earlier.

If you're throwing one of Karchev's warjacks into water, it's no longer in BtB, and the same goes for chucking a Templar out of the Covenant's command range. Similarly, the Thrullg can help out with upkeeps that prevent KD like Superiority. Finally, the Wrastler has 3 attacks, including a P+S 17 bite that's bound to put the hurt to everything but a Devastator.

But yeah, there'll always be a few bad match-ups with any list, and unilving extremely high armor models that you can't drown is one of Blindwater's. Of course, with the amazing flying wrastler circus, it's fairly easy to avoid them anyhow.

CT GAMER wrote:The game is all about combos, synergy, and "deck building".

In many ways it emulates CCGs in miniatures form. IF you like/hate M:TG you will probably feel a similar way in regards to Warmachine.

and

WM/H as a game system doesn't reward spam in the slightest, resulting in lists that are more diversified and combined arms from the get-go. And balance-wise... well

Interesting, that was generally my experience as well, its about combos and deck building. I liked the game for the lower model count (vs 40k) and the great minis and ideas. I didn't think so much of the actual play. What some people describe as combined arms, I see more as cheesy combos, YMMV. (For the record I HATE 40k design for characters like Vulkan Hestan, and generally EVERY warcaster is like that with army changing dynamics, of course this might be a plus for some readers.)

Most games come down to some conclusive, egregious multi stack combo and some games are so slanted due to match up they're not very fun or fair. Furthermore the games don't always yield a very satisfying result because when the warcasters are gone that side effectively loses.

From a Warhammer perspective: It's like playing 40k with nothing but HQs, Walkers and a little infantry and every army is like vampire counts, when the HQ dies you loose. If that sounds fun, go for it, if not, probably don't.

It is kind of neat to have the characters actually command things and tie into the army instead of just being bigger beat sticks!

I didn't think it was very fun to have destroyed nearly an entire enemy army just to have a combined feat spell boosted attack chain kill my warcaster and end up with my entire army and their wounded caster and armless jacks and have it be a loss. Likewise it's not very fun to play a 1 or 2 turn game against a a NUB and bust out a chain combo that kills their caster in opening moves. Those feel like lopsided half games.

I find many, not all, Warmachine players consider this 'good' play, and I don't really.

Also I use to think it was a cheaper game but, after buying several $50 box sets, I think not really, a nice army for WM is still worth about $400 minimum, usually more.

Another Warhammer centric concern is painting, few Warmahorde players paint there stuff, actually, probably about the same proportion as Warhammer guys in truth, it's just more irritating because generally Warmahorde armies are a fraction the size of 40k armies.

Also terrain is usually much less striking, the boards generally are much smaller 4x4 and use 2-4 pieces of little terrain, it's seldom much of a spectacle as the terrain is abstracted a little differently. If you need the bigger battles for fun and like large armies and scenery, Warmachine doesn't really scale up that way very well, and the player base seems happy to play with a couple trees and a box. Warmahordes never goes 3D either and ruins and multi stack things aren't really on the table at all, it's a 'flat' game.

No tanks, maybe you like that more maybe not, you're call. I like tanks!

The resin models are generally clearly better than finecast, which is ironic as they were also first. Resin Warjacks are awesome. Unforunately Resin warcasters, the skinny ones, are about as mis shapen as finecast generally is, get metal equivalents IMO.

How big of games are you playing that you're spending $400 on an army? My 50 pt list ran about $200, and I'm fielding an infantry heavy eSorscha list with Beast-09. O.o

Terrain and painting are also probably rather subject to your local meta. Most of the locals here have fully painted armies, and I've seen a fair amount of multilevel tables (cliffs and such add a great amount of Fun to power attacks, incidentally). I generally have about eight to twelve terrain pieces on the table myself, typically a mix of low walls, forests, hills, and obstructions. Tournament tables tend to be about the same in my experience.

Most of your other points are quite valid, of course, if subjective. If you don't like character models that change up your entire army, this probably isn't the game for you. If you don't like your HQ choice actually mattering, this probably isn't the game for you. If you don't like being able to stage a comeback at any point in the game, this probably isn't the game for you. If you're looking for tanks in a steampunk game, walk back the way you came. Perhaps consider FoW or a ground-heavy Dystopian Wars force.

Oh, and the battle boxes are plastic, not resin.