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Im excited to get my Cryx box and start painting it!

I posted this in the DCM forum;




Cygnar Battleforce 40 bucks
Long Gunner box 40 bucks
Stormblade box 40 bucks
Gun Mage box 27 bucks
Journeyman 7 bucks


150 bucks gives you a pretty good 35 point force (which 'feels' like a sub 1850 game of 40k to me). Upgrade to 50 for another 50 bucks with Strangewayes, Stormclad and UA (Which 'feels' like a 1850ish+ game to me). So 200 bucks gives you a pretty good 50 point force (Which seems to be the Steamroller format---35 or 50).

Let's make a competitive 1850 Vulkan list!

(all prices at 20% off)
Vulkan 16 bucks
Dread 35 bucks
Dread 35 bucks
TH/SS Terms 40 bucks
---LRC 45 bucks
Tac Squad 30 bucks
----Rhino 26 bucks
Tac Squad 30 bucks
----Rhino 26 bucks
Scout Squad 20 bucks
----Telion 12 bucks
LS w/ HF/MM 24 bucks
LS w/ HF/MM 25 bucks
Pred 40 bucks
Pred 40 bucks
Pred 40 bucks

485 dollars

That's actually 1800---so you have some room for upgrades (Where I don't know, PF on Tac squads is pretty pointless). But 50 is there if you want it.



I have no idea about the terrain issue. Right now in 40k shooting through almost all terrain is the same as shooting at almost anything in the game (4+ cover). Between vehicles, wrecks, trees, brush, other infantry---it's all a 4+ save right now. WM has two differentiating types of cover, very clear LOS rules and encourages you to slam models off hills, into other models, buildings, water, etc.

I'm relatively new to WM---but I feel it's much more interactive with terrain than 5th Ed. 40k.

I still find the cost of both games about the same.

I can make my 1850 Tourney army for the same cost it would take me to build a Tourney Warmachine army.


most warmahorde tourneys ive seen, require 2 lists.. which means im building 2 armies as the warcasters i like use different units to compliment them.

AgeOfEgos wrote:I posted this in the DCM forum;

Cygnar Battleforce 40 bucks
Long Gunner box 40 bucks
Stormblade box 40 bucks
Gun Mage box 27 bucks
Journeyman 7 bucks


150 bucks gives you a pretty good 35 point force (which 'feels' like a sub 1850 game of 40k to me). Upgrade to 50 for another 50 bucks with Strangewayes, Stormclad and UA (Which 'feels' like a 1850ish+ game to me). So 200 bucks gives you a pretty good 50 point force (Which seems to be the Steamroller format---35 or 50).

Let's make a competitive 1850 Vulkan list!

(all prices at 20% off)
Vulkan 16 bucks
Dread 35 bucks
Dread 35 bucks
TH/SS Terms 40 bucks
---LRC 45 bucks
Tac Squad 30 bucks
----Rhino 26 bucks
Tac Squad 30 bucks
----Rhino 26 bucks
Scout Squad 20 bucks
----Telion 12 bucks
LS w/ HF/MM 24 bucks
LS w/ HF/MM 25 bucks
Pred 40 bucks
Pred 40 bucks
Pred 40 bucks

485 dollars

That's actually 1800---so you have some room for upgrades (Where I don't know, PF on Tac squads is pretty pointless). But 50 is there if you want it.

I think the key point here is that the above Warmachine army + Captain Haley = completely different army, where as that 40k army + Sicarius - Vulkan = almost exactly same army.

AgeOfEgos wrote:I have no idea about the terrain issue. Right now in 40k shooting through almost all terrain is the same as shooting at almost anything in the game (4+ cover). Between vehicles, wrecks, trees, brush, other infantry---it's all a 4+ save right now. WM has two differentiating types of cover, very clear LOS rules and encourages you to slam models off hills, into other models, buildings, water, etc.

I'm relatively new to WM---but I feel it's much more interactive with terrain than 5th Ed. 40k.

It absolutely is. In games against another player, who is actually very good, but I'd say he's still more of a WH/40k player than WM/H, he constantly asks 'well, what are we counting this as'? My response is always 'what do you mean? It is what it is.'

That fence is actually a fence. That stone wall is a stone wall. The wooden hut is actually a wooden hut, and god help you if you're standing inside a 3-storey brick building when mortars knock it down.

I still find the cost of both games about the same.

I can make my 1850 Tourney army for the same cost it would take me to build a Tourney Warmachine army.


most warmahorde tourneys ive seen, require 2 lists.. which means im building 2 armies as the warcasters i like use different units to compliment them.

I have a 50 pt tourney list consisting primarily of Irusk, Behemoth, and Winter Guard. I can swap Irusk for Old Witch for roughly $20, and now I have 2 distinct, competitive, and good-at-different-things Steam Roller lists. The guy who won the UK Masters with Khador played largely the same lists in a 3-list format, but swapped out the warcasters for 3 distinct, eligible lists.

You don't have to do that, but it's an option.

I personally find I get far, far more playability for my dollar in WM/H versus 40k. Want a different army in WM/H? Buy another warcaster and another unit/jack or two. Want a different army in 40k? Buy 3 Vendettas and a dozen Chimeras.

For some people sure.

Right now i sadly have legion which i dont like.

Elylith takes 75% different units then it does for my pthagrosh list.

So ive almost bought 2 armies for it.

If i want a new army ? not everyone is gonna stay with 1 faction.

Which is completetly starting a new army.


one day, when i sell my legion, i might invest that back into the army i wish i had gone with.

Then again, im lazy and selling an army can be alot of effort.

If i want a new army ? not everyone is gonna stay with 1 faction.

See, that's an entirely different problem from wanting 2 different lists for Steamroller. People starting more than 1 army isn't limited to just Warmachine.

Yes its different, but its something people should know before starting in.. and being told.. its cheaper.

And not to mention Price per model is higher then most 40k models that ive seen.

(except for maybe aussieland)

Now with this, i plan on having a finished Warmahordes army. and im working on renegade IG at the same time.

Both are fun, but neither is cheap.

Price per model isn't really a big deal when you only need 4 models to get a playable (IE, 15 point) army going.

Spyder68 wrote:Yes its different, but its something people should know before starting in.. and being told.. its cheaper.

And not to mention Price per model is higher then most 40k models that ive seen.

(except for maybe aussieland)

Now with this, i plan on having a finished Warmahordes army. and im working on renegade IG at the same time.

Both are fun, but neither is cheap.

Price per model is comparable, cheaper when you factor in the largely mandatory dedicated transports.

Model count is lower, even with 2 list formats. When I played Legion, eLylith ran 2 Ravagores and eThagrosh ran 14 shredders, that's still much cheaper than the 9 chimeras I needed for my IG list.

Lower model count to play + Comparable price per model simply comes out to 'cheaper' in general. If you want to play more than one list or jump armies or play radically different list types/collect an entire faction, that is very different than playing a single 40k list.

Spyder68 wrote:Yes its different, but its something people should know before starting in.. and being told.. its cheaper.

Warning: Game is addictive enough that you'll buy a second army?

Prices on miniatures are comparable and GW often offer cheaper prices for similar minis.
That said, as a game it is much easier to play Hordes or Warmachine on a tight budget than 40K. 40K budget armies are generally built using Marines or other elites and are generally mono-purpose. You can build a cheap-ish army for WM/H for ANY faction, and change it up relatively easily with a warcaster AS LONG AS YOU PLAN PURCHASES CAREFULLY.
With scattershot or completist purchasing, it will easily cost you as much as or more than GW games, but it is easier to build whatever faction you like on a budget than with GW.

Laughing Man wrote:How big of games are you playing that you're spending $400 on an army? My 50 pt list ran about $200, and I'm fielding an infantry heavy eSorscha list with Beast-09. O.o

Vlad: $11
Harkevich: $16
Metal Sorsha: $8
$35

Khador Starter: $50
Khador Starter: $50
Beast 9: $55
Devastator: $40
Spriggan: $38
$233

Wardog: $10
Kovnik: $20
$30

Widowmakers: $ 20
Man-O-War Shocktroopers: $50
Man-O-War Shocktroopers: $50
$120

TOTAL: $418

Don't even have any infantry yet really, and want a second each of Sprigan and Devastator, also need a Black Ivan and Drago still as well, plus a Demolition core. It'll be $600 by the time I am done, about comparable with a 40k army. (Plus rules, dice, counters, markers, card sleeves and templates which I am not counting)

Laughing Man wrote:Most of your other points are quite valid, of course, if subjective.

Thanks, and yes, I know. Surely I am not the authority, I tried to write from a warhammer perspective, in the spirit of what I thought the op asked for: Im a warhammer guy getting into WMH what do you think. As I had done that. Obviously YMMV.

Laughing Man wrote:If you're looking for tanks in a steampunk game, walk back the way you came.

Maybe not...


into:

I plan to shamelessly steal this idea!
Credit here:
http://www.herebegeeks.com/games/khador-gun-tank-wip-how-to-convert-your-khador-gun-carriage-part-2/

Just to give an example, and not saying this is an uber list, but the following units would work well with:
PMadrak, EMadrak, Grissel, Kegslayer
Troll Axer 6
2x Impalers 10
Mauler 9
Max Trollkin Champions 10

Now, you can definitely make a better list (2 impalers is probably overkill) but that list is functional and will play fairly decently under all 4 casters. The battlebox+heavy+unit formula is a pretty decent way of contructing a skeleton list, and you'll manage it for around $100.

Da Boss wrote:You can build a cheap-ish army for WM/H for ANY faction.

This is another good point that I think makes WM/H easier to enter into than GW games. No matter what the faction, they all have pretty comparable competitive entry costs at right around $200-$300 for a medium-sized army list. Thus there's no hidden 'tax' on choosing one faction over another.

Cheap entry into 40k is usually predicated on playing Marines. Cost of entry by faction (competitively) is generally all over the place. When I built my 2k mech IG, I spent something like $900 on 15 AV12 vehicles and all the guys and special weapons to go into them.

Laughing Man wrote:How big of games are you playing that you're spending $400 on an army? My 50 pt list ran about $200, and I'm fielding an infantry heavy eSorscha list with Beast-09. O.o

Vlad: $11
Harkevich: $16
Metal Sorsha: $8
$35

Khador Starter: $50
Khador Starter: $50
Beast 9: $55
Devastator: $40
Spriggan: $38
$233

Wardog: $10
Kovnik: $20
$30

Widowmakers: $ 20
Man-O-War Shocktroopers: $50
Man-O-War Shocktroopers: $50
$120

TOTAL: $418

Don't even have any infantry yet really, and want a second each of Sprigan and Devastator, also need a Black Ivan and Drago still as well, plus a Demolition core. It'll be $600 by the time I am done, about comparable with a 40k army. (Plus rules, dice, counters, markers, card sleeves and templates which I am not counting)

Laughing Man wrote:Most of your other points are quite valid, of course, if subjective.

Thanks, and yes, I know. Surely I am not the authority, I tried to write from a warhammer perspective, in the spirit of what I thought the op asked for: Im a warhammer guy getting into WMH what do you think. As I had done that. Obviously YMMV.

Laughing Man wrote:If you're looking for tanks in a steampunk game, walk back the way you came.

Maybe not...


into:

I plan to shamelessly steal this idea!
Credit here:
http://www.herebegeeks.com/games/khador-gun-tank-wip-how-to-convert-your-khador-gun-carriage-part-2/
EDIT: If I pull the trigger on this conversion it will be nearly $200 alone I think, with a GW Battlewagon and the Khador Carriage...

Augustus wrote:
Vlad: $11
Harkevich: $16
Metal Sorsha: $8
$35

Khador Starter: $50
Khador Starter: $50
Beast 9: $55
Devastator: $40
Spriggan: $38
$233

Wardog: $10
Kovnik: $20
$30

Widowmakers: $ 20
Man-O-War Shocktroopers: $50
Man-O-War Shocktroopers: $50
$120

TOTAL: $418

Don't even have any infantry yet really, and want a second each of Sprigan and Devastator, also need a Black Ivan and Drago still as well, plus a Demolition core. It'll be $600 by the time I am done, about comparable with a 40k army. (Plus rules, dice, counters, markers, card sleeves and templates which I am not counting)

This is 85 points worth of models, excluding warcaster warjack points, which would be analogous to more than 3,000 pts of 40k if we say that 50 pts is the 'normal' game size in WM/H.

So you have spent roughly double what you would normally need to build a 35 pt list (the $200-ish level normally quoted for entry), and gotten roughly double the amount of models.

Now, you can definitely make a better list (2 impalers is probably overkill) but that list is functional and will play fairly decently under all 4 casters.

It's also a rather odd point value. 29/30 point games aren't played too often.

*Snip List*

Ah, a 75 point list (well, assuming you buy plastic Shocktrooper units for maximum win). That explains the discrepancy. Also, that gun tank is awesome and I think I just might steal it for my second carriage.

Woah, did I screw up my points by 5? *blinks*
I blame...well. Myself! Wonder how I managed that one

sourclams wrote:This is 85 points worth of models, excluding warcaster warjack points, which would be analogous to more than 3,000 pts of 40k if we say that 50 pts is the 'normal' game size in WM/H.

A minimum 35 point force is not a full army. One needs some options. Warmachine players talk about the incredible variety of the game but look how much it costs, just to have a few options in standard games was $400 dollars and all I have fits into 2 x 2.5 inch trays.

I have 7 jacks, 3 characters and 12 infantry models... That was $400 dollars?

This stuff is not any cheaper.

But hey if you make a single minimum size army you can do it for 200, yea ok and you can play 40k with armies made from 2 battle for mcragg boxes too... It's comparable. If anything the GW plastic stuff gets you higher model counts, at least the Mcragg boxes would yield 2 armies?

@Augustus: Well... if you want to take it to its logical conclusion, it IS.

I have a reinforced battle company of space marines. This includes 30 veterans from the first company, including dreadnoughts, sternguard and terminators, enough transports to mount them all and assorted vindicators, whirlwinds and predator as support. I have three of the special "army modifying characters". Lacking bikes, I have not bothered with Khan. This probably tops out around 5000 points.

At the end of the day, whatever marine army you choose pretty much breaks down into - Infantry brick (foot/jump/terminator), Hybrid brick w/ mechanized support or fully mechanized. Sure you can change weapons and loadouts to effect MINOR changes to gameplay, but at the end of the day, 40k is structured so that units do not expand outside their roles. You can kit a tac squad to threaten tanks, but that's all it does. It will never be a dedicated tank hunting squad. Even throwing in Vulkan, who modifies the accuracy of their tank hunting abilities doesn't really make them anything more than an all-round squad with enhanced tank threatening ability.

For Khador, I have 12 heavy jacks and enough infantry and solos to reach the 250 point mark and 8 warcasters. Each warcaster ALONE offers the same levels of gameplay variability that my 5000 points of space marines offers, by mixing and matching of models. However, the warcaster system is such that it vastly changes gameplay.

How?

Vulkan buffs Thunderhammers and Meltas only.
Warmachine buffs can usually be targetted at entire classes of models (warriors/units/warjacks) and bestowed or upkept as needed. Thus, changes in buffs/debuffs that each warcaster offers is huge.

Feats are game-changing, ranging from giving your entire army feel-no-pain for a turn, to extra attacks, to added damage dice on attacks!

While probably gamer overkill, my pool of Khador models alows for more diverse gameplay than my ENTIRE 17 year 40k collection... (YMMV, but I doubt it. )

-edit- went a bit overboard there, but when tallyed up, Khador cost significantly less than the Marines. Even though I went the AOBR to bulk up the squads, my Khador cost around just a bit more than just the Vehicles in my Marine army.

That's an incredible collection!

keezus wrote:Feats are game-changing... (YMMV, but I doubt it. )

Indeed!

MMDNV

Ha ha!

@Agustus: For WM, I'd highly suggest buying different units at the start rather than double up on items right away. Also, keep in mind that outside of rare circumstances, your warcaster will NOT want to run more than 2 warjacks at a time.

Sure, thanks! Though I have been playing devils advocate Warhammer mean guy for this thread I actually got in cheap from Adpeticon, I got 2x Khador starters, one in my swag bag and a second from PP for fixing their display base then!

Break it again. I want free swag too!

Augustus wrote:Sure, thanks! Though I have been playing devils advocate Warhammer mean guy for this thread I actually got in cheap from Adpeticon, I got 2x Khador starters, one in my swag bag and a second from PP for fixing their display base then!

One of us! One of us! One of us!

I'll give Warhammer 40k credit when it's due... it is a good game with lots of tactical flexibility...













IN THIRD EDITION.

Sadly, in the 5th edition, the Grim Darkness of the far future doesn't contain:

Splitting shooting and assault targets
* Rapidfire now is an improvement over 3rd Ed
Assaulting after disembarking from a moving transport
* Exit points now is an improvement and was implemented at the end of 3rd Ed as part of the campaign to stop the first turn 12+1" BA Rhino movement, 2" deploy out the front, *charge*, despite the fact that you could reliably defeat this by not deploying at deployment zone edge!!! (I omitted the obligatory shoot before charge, as canny generals would remove casualties out of charge range, and the BA player would usually fubar his own charge by shooting!)
Standardized movement over random fleet/run
* Being able to run is great, but seriously - random distance?
Meaningful Ld stat. (It's there as a decoration! Pinning is a joke! Bring back the hillarious man-alone checks!)

They removed stuff that is considered "tricky" but required finesse to pull off like:

Consolidating into another combat
Consolidating back into your vehicle
Blocking the access points on a vehicle to kill its occupants
Crossfire
The new rules severely limits multi target charges.

Laughing Man wrote:

Spyder68 wrote:Yes its different, but its something people should know before starting in.. and being told.. its cheaper.

Warning: Game is addictive enough that you'll buy a second army?

I don't think i ever said i didnt like the game

I for one will play both, 40k and PP.

What i did say is i started under the assumption that its cheaper models etc etc.

And that i dont like the army that i chose.



Planning out new armies.. they don't look that much cheaper is all.

Spyder68 wrote:Planning out new armies.. they don't look that much cheaper is all.

Very interested in what your numbers are. Every time I think about a new 40k army, the price makes my brain explode. Last one I priced was two years ago for an Armored Company that topped out around near $1000MSRP for 2000 points. Needless to say, I didn't buy it.

This thread is starting to get a little fixated on the cost thing. Maybe we can shift it back to gameplay, talk about the PP tournament and league options, key purchases (should you buy your factions card deck for instance).