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Emperors Faithful wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:German Empire supported AustroHungary. They saw Serbs as "lonely peasants good only to be killed and their land conquered". So to my point of view German Empire = evil.

My Bias Sense is tingling.

I understand that you're Serbian, but you have to get that your teaching of history is bound to be skewed by your upbringing. Believe me I have a Bolivian friend and there is no love lost between you two.

Basically, I don't know enough about it to so much as touch it with a 10-foot pole.

As for America, bringing to order to the world by choking the s*** out of it. People living there are good, country is beautiful and you can always succeed if you want. But their politicians are only concerned in ruling the world and telling other countries what to do, that's somewhat "evil" by common standards ( in fact, when I see America today I see many similarity's with former USSR when it comes to telling other countries what to do and to take shape in their politics ).

Corrupt/Douchebag Politicians? Tick.
Skewed worldview that places them at the centre of the universe? Tick.

I could go on, but you've basically described any given country in the world.

You are right, this is no place for such things...
Let's return to OP....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Henners91 wrote:Read a non-IoM codex and you'll get a few examples

This is a very good point. If you want to see Chaos, Dark Eldar, Ork, Necron and Tyranid victories ( official "bad" guys ) just read their codex.

If I remember correctly aren't the high lords of Terra for the most part corrupt? (not all of them) I mean surely even just one corrupt high lord of Terra is a massive loss for the IOM is it not? And I guess when wazdakka I believe rammed his bike through a titan and destroyed it (it was a warlord titan right?) im pretty sure that is a loss (and embarrassing)

then the swarmlord ruining peoples days
997.M41 - Holdur Sector - The Swarmlord returned to attack the Imperium, leading the swiftest and greatest planetary invasions of Hive Fleet Leviathan. In the space of four months the Swarmlord oversaw the absorption of two dozen worlds including Talon, Chapter planet of the Storm Falcons, and Endragiga, a major shipyard of the region. Latest Imperial reports indicate the Swarmlord is assaulting the Orks of Octarius.

The list goes on really

How many worlds did the Tyranids eat? Thats should fill up the utterly defeated list for ages to come.

Evil is winning thats why its so grim dark.

Asherian Command wrote:Evil is winning thats why its so grim dark.

This. The entire Idea behind the Imperium is that they are falling apart, they peaked during the golden age now they are slowly in decline.

n0t_u wrote:IoM is also the biggest contributor to Chaos, their existence fuels it basically. Fighting it powers Khorne, diseases and sickness power nurgle, pride powers Slaneesh, scheming powers Tzeentch; and that's just the negative aspects as honor would also fuel Khorne for example. If Chaos ever did manage to defeat the IoM they would probably have to find more beings capable of providing them with energy or fade back into the immaterium, ceasing to be a real threat.

A very good point - and an important part of the reasons behind why there is "eternal war". The pawns might not like it (if they knew!), but the Chaos Gods themselves don't seem to actually care about the end result. They're just there for the party.

The same could be said about the Tyranids. What will happen after they've eaten everything?

"The same could be said about the Tyranids. What will happen after they've eaten everything?"

Find another IOM to eat or eat each other? Or go vegetarian and start eating necrons.

Lynata wrote:
The same could be said about the Tyranids. What will happen after they've eaten everything?

Tyranids are less of a threat than Tau. Leviathan is all that remains of them.

Henry Zou's Flesh and Iron is an excellent book if you're looking for a non imperial victory.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Lynata wrote:
The same could be said about the Tyranids. What will happen after they've eaten everything?

Tyranids are less of a threat than Tau. Leviathan is all that remains of them.

There are also multiple splinter fleets of varying sizes. Left unattended, these splinters will grow and diversify to become new threats.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Lynata wrote:
The same could be said about the Tyranids. What will happen after they've eaten everything?

Tyranids are less of a threat than Tau. Leviathan is all that remains of them.

I think you are under selling them. When a tyranid fleet shows up, several worlds get burned just to form a defense line. When the tau show up, you lose maybe one two worlds, but they are also left intact, so you can take them back when your ready.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Lynata wrote:
The same could be said about the Tyranids. What will happen after they've eaten everything?

Tyranids are less of a threat than Tau. Leviathan is all that remains of them.

Um, no, there's Dagon in the far galactic North-East, beyond the Segmentum Ultima.

Does evil ever win?

If by "evil", you mean "Chaos" then, ultimately, yes. It's inevitable.

ShadowZetki wrote:Find another IOM to eat or eat each other? Or go vegetarian and start eating necrons.

And die of course. Tyranids always get exterminated when they fight Necrons.

"Evil" (Although really, all factions short of maybe the Tau are largely evil) wins sometimes.

Off the top of my head, Necrons won at Damnos (Although less of a victory now, before it was retconned, it was a decisive victory over the Black Templars and Ultramarines), they wiped out the Emperor's Swords chapter, after exterminating the Tyranids that were attacking Tau, they then exterminated the Tau at Ka'mais I think the planet was called, just to name a few.

Huron Blackheart defeated the Space Wolves, captured their ship, and converted the remaining Wolves to Chaos. He also took down Vilamus. Abaddon had Antecanis massacred. The Imperium had to Exterminatus Gheistos after Chaos irrevocably tainted it (Exterminatus is always a loss). Chaos destroyed Toreus as well. At least one Craftworld, Kher-Ys, has fallen before Chaos too.

Tyranids have of course devoured countless worlds, and most of their losses are Pyrrhic Victories on the part of the Imperium, or Eldar. Malanthai and Iyanden in particular standing out as losses for the Eldar.

Dark Eldar win with every successful raid, they do not fight prolonged wars, partially because they could not, and partially because they don't need to.

Admittedly cannot think of any Ork victories at the moment. Except Kaptin Badrukk killing a Void Whale. Heroic.

So yeah, the more "villainous" factions have victories, especially in their own codices.

The good guys always win because the ultamarines are always conveniently placed only a few star systems away by mat ward.

Lynata wrote:

n0t_u wrote:IoM is also the biggest contributor to Chaos, their existence fuels it basically. Fighting it powers Khorne, diseases and sickness power nurgle, pride powers Slaneesh, scheming powers Tzeentch; and that's just the negative aspects as honor would also fuel Khorne for example. If Chaos ever did manage to defeat the IoM they would probably have to find more beings capable of providing them with energy or fade back into the immaterium, ceasing to be a real threat.

A very good point - and an important part of the reasons behind why there is "eternal war". The pawns might not like it (if they knew!), but the Chaos Gods themselves don't seem to actually care about the end result. They're just there for the party.

The same could be said about the Tyranids. What will happen after they've eaten everything?

Tyranids come from beyond the Imperium's galaxy, don't they? I assume they'd move on to look for another galaxy or two, if they ever finished with this one.

Any fight the Orks are in is a victory for them.

Chaos is slowly winning. Remember the prophecy from Legion? By losing the Heresy the IoM has been condemned to a slow but steady decline into ruin, fueling the Chaos gods as it decays.

Pretty much any time Tyrannids attack a planet in force, they win. Either they devour the planet or force the Imperium to use Externinatus or lose horrible amounts of troops and civilians, which I'd classify as a loss.

Any time Dark Eldar can successfully take slaves, they win.

Necrons are still awakening, but they will eventually have the strength to take whatever they want, when they want.

I believe I've covered all the "evil" races there, although I believe the Imperium is the most evil faction of all.

Brother Coa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Why assume the IM is the good guys?

...

.

Your entire post merely assumes that the IoM is not evil, and does not offer any evidence for this assumption.

Only Chaos and the C'tan/Necrons are evil, and no race is good. The rest just do what they do because its in their genes, in the case of the Orkz, or to survive, in the case of everyone else.

MandalorynOranj wrote:I believe I've covered all the "evil" races there, although I believe the Imperium is the most evil faction of all.

Don't know what makes you say that.

The Dark Eldar are certainly worse. The followers of Chaos are worse. Is hard to say with the Necrons, but their masters, the C'Tan, are arguably the most evil, malevolent beings in the entire setting.

Evil will never win while pragmatic nazi-commie's use the lives of billions of the IoM sons and daughters as cheap and expendable resources to fuel their war marchines in a never-ending war based on pride, greed, and a derranged violent nature. Wait. Maybe they've already lost?

Quick! Use the Terminus Decree!

40k is Evil versus Oblivion, not Good versus Evil.

Void__Dragon wrote:
The Dark Eldar are certainly worse. The followers of Chaos are worse. Is hard to say with the Necrons, but their masters, the C'Tan, are arguably the most evil, malevolent beings in the entire setting.

I agree with this. Morals are not black and white in the real world or in 40k as there are "levels" of evil. Some bad deeds are worse than others, thus our different punishments our justice system uses. Parking ticket /= lethal injection, for example, but murder does (unless you're O.J. or Casey Anthony).

Saying the IoM is as evil as the Dark Eldar would mean at some point a chaos god was invented out of their debauchery.

Of course, who knows the true nature of the Big E....

Void__Dragon wrote:

MandalorynOranj wrote:I believe I've covered all the "evil" races there, although I believe the Imperium is the most evil faction of all.

Don't know what makes you say that.

The Dark Eldar are certainly worse. The followers of Chaos are worse. Is hard to say with the Necrons, but their masters, the C'Tan, are arguably the most evil, malevolent beings in the entire setting.

Every "evil" faction is evil for a reason. Dark Eldar need slaves totorture so their own souls aren't eaten by Slaanesh, Chaos wants to control the galaxy, same for the C'tan, but the IoM is evil by pure negligence and ignorance. They are perfectly content to let millions of their citizens die, they are corrupt to the point of ridiculousness, they refuse to accept any views that conflict with their own even when it would be to their benefit to do so. I could list more reasons (and I will later if you want) but I've gotta go for now.

MandalorynOranj wrote:Every "evil" faction is evil for a reason. Dark Eldar need slaves totorture so their own souls aren't eaten by Slaanesh, Chaos wants to control the galaxy, same for the C'tan, but the IoM is evil by pure negligence and ignorance. They are perfectly content to let millions of their citizens die, they are corrupt to the point of ridiculousness, they refuse to accept any views that conflict with their own even when it would be to their benefit to do so. I could list more reasons (and I will later if you want) but I've gotta go for now.

The Dark Eldar created Slaanesh. They were monsters before Slaanesh was even around, and them being that way is the reason for the damnation of their own souls at She Who Thirsts hands. Yet they have, not once, considered changing the way they are, despite what it caused. The Craftworld Eldar would have taken them back, viewing survival as being of the utmost importance, and gaining Commorragh would be invaluable for them. But no, they do not, yes, they need to do what they do, but only because they chose to be that way, and they enjoy it.

Depends on the follower of Chaos, I probably should have specified that, Fabius Bile in particular is monstrous even by Chaos standards. Though I will admit, it varies. Abaddon and the Black Legion are undoubtedly largely pure evil though.

Uh, no, the C'Tan, upon gaining physical bodies, for no reason, decided they wanted to enslave the galaxy and turn it into the universe's largest fast-food restaurant for them, because them living things taste better than stars. The Nightbringer is described as even more sadistic than the Dark Eldar, and indeed, loves nothing more than inflicting misery, suffering, and death upon mortals, to satiate its own twisted hunger.

The Imperium does much of what it does because it HAS to, and contrary to popular belief, most do not view wasting millions upon billions or annihilating their planets as anything but a bad thing, yes, the Imperium's rulers are evil for the most part, but they are necessarily evil. Now, that does not excuse their deeds, but they pale compared to the shameless debauchery of the Dark Eldar, or the unrepetent sadism and greed of the C'tan. I don't know why you seem to think "They do what they do because they want to take over the galaxy" makes them less evil. And they are evil for a reason to. It's called the Horus Heresy. Though, I would honestly label the Emperor as evil as well.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Why assume the IM is the good guys?

...

.

Your entire post merely assumes that the IoM is not evil, and does not offer any evidence for this assumption.

Nor do your statement.

I didn't make a statement. I asked a question.

Nightlords wait for the majoirty of planetary defenders to leave.

Nightlords decend upon the planet and slaughter a large amount of the population.

Spread the remains in such a way that a Daemonic incursion happens.

Nightlords leave because they've got their rocks off.

Daemons Destroy the world.

??????

Evils wins?

Kilkrazy wrote:I didn't make a statement. I asked a question.

I answer it and you said that that is not true.
Do you have sources to prove that that is not true?

Brother Coa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I didn't make a statement. I asked a question.

I answer it and you said that that is not true.
Do you have sources to prove that that is not true?

Actually Kilkrazy just pointed out what was very evident, that your premise is based on an assumption, and you provided insufficient proof for your premise.

Nowhere did Kilkrazy say that your premise was incorrect, only that your reasoning was flawed, your evidence nonexistent.

Just saying.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I didn't make a statement. I asked a question.

I answer it and you said that that is not true.
Do you have sources to prove that that is not true?

Actually Kilkrazy just pointed out what was very evident, that your premise is based on an assumption, and you provided insufficient proof for your premise.

Nowhere did Kilkrazy say that your premise was incorrect, only that your reasoning was flawed, your evidence nonexistent.

Just saying.

All right, prompt me evidence that Imperium is "evil"?