Does evil ever win?

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**Nicholas**

Brother Coa wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:I didn't make a statement. I asked a question.

I answer it and you said that that is not true.
Do you have sources to prove that that is not true?
Actually Kilkrazy just pointed out what was very evident, that your premise is based on an assumption, and you provided insufficient proof for your premise.

Nowhere did Kilkrazy say that your premise was incorrect, only that your reasoning was flawed, your evidence nonexistent.

Just saying.

All right, prompt me evidence that Imperium is "evil"?

Their entire belief is that mankind alone has a right to own the galaxy, and any non human race has to be exterminated to realize this dream. Yes they tolerate some like Eldar, but only because it is necessary or they can not spread their resources enough to eliminate them.

**Brother Coa**

That's just wild speculation. Give me actual proof the one that says: "Humans are evil, they want to rule the galaxy".

**iproxtaco**

That's not wild speculation, that's what the Imperium believes. Does it make them evil? No, it makes them arrogant. Every species in 40k has their own beliefs and Ideologies, that doesn't make them evil. Although evil is a difficult thing to define, I would say we are dealing with absolute evil, which probably would be committing acts for the pleasure of committing the act or it's outcome. When an Inquisitor dooms a Daemon infested planet to Exterminatus, he does it because the planet is lost, and the Daemons must be killed else they cause more suffering. It's realism. The C'tan, they are evil by my definition. They order their minions to scour life from the galaxy simply because souls taste better than stars.

**Brother Coa**

Exactly. Imperium are not the bad guys, they are not the good guys either, but they are quite neutral to good guys.

And I understand them: every other race and "thing" was trying to kill us since we get up on our feet and spread beyond the boundaries of Sol. After ~20.000 - 30.000 years of that ( Humanity developed Warp drive in ~M20-M30 right? ) I would shot the first non-human on sight to.

Basically every other faction is neutral. Except Chaos ( obvious ), Dark Eldar ( do I really need to explain ) and Necrons ( killing everything because their good needs to feed ).

**nomotog**

Brother Coa wrote:
All right, prompt me evidence that Imperium is "evil"?

Can you offer evidence that the IoM is not evil?

**purplefood**

Brother Coa wrote:Exactly. Imperium are not the bad guys, they are not the good guys either, but they are quite neutral to good guys.

And I understand them: every other race and "thing" was trying to kill us since we get up on our feet and spread beyond the boundaries of Sol. After ~20.000 - 30.000 years of that ( Humanity developed Warp drive in ~M20-M30 right? ) I would shot the first non-human on sight to.

Basically every other faction is neutral. Except Chaos ( obvious ), Dark Eldar ( do I really need to explain ) and Necrons ( killing everything because their good needs to feed ).

No faction is neutral... every faction is trying to keep themselves alive and expand their power.
The IoM is evil it's just that everything else is either far more evil or trying to conquer humanity. The evil is worth it until those threats have been eliminated.

**Void__Dragon**

iproxtaco wrote:That's not wild speculation, that's what the Imperium believes. Does it make them evil? No, it makes them arrogant.

When your arrogance creates a belief that promotes genocide of other races and cultures, and you act on it, that is evil.

Granted, the Imperium is not pure evil, there is neutrality and even good to be found in it, and as I said, much of what they do is necessary. They can even be considered sympathetic, considering their plight.

They are certainly nowhere near as vile as the C'Tan or Dark Eldar.

**MandalorynOranj**

Void__Dragon wrote:
MandalorynOranj wrote:Every "evil" faction is evil for a reason. Dark Eldar need slaves totorture so their own souls aren't eaten by Slaanesh, Chaos wants to control the galaxy, same for the C'tan, but the IoM is evil by pure negligence and ignorance. They are perfectly content to let millions of their citizens die, they are corrupt to the point of ridiculousness, they refuse to accept any views that conflict with their own even when it would be to their benefit to do so. I could list more reasons (and I will later if you want) but I've gotta go for now.

The Dark Eldar created Slaanesh. They were monsters before Slaanesh was even around, and them being that way is the reason for the damnation of their own souls at She Who Thirsts hands. Yet they have, not once, considered changing the way they are, despite what it caused. The Craftworld Eldar would have taken them back, viewing survival as being of the utmost importance, and gaining Commorragh would be invaluable for them. But no, they do not, yes, they need to do what they do, but only because they chose to be that way, and they enjoy it.

Depends on the follower of Chaos, I probably should have specified that, Fabius Bile in particular is monstrous even by Chaos standards. Though I will admit, it varies. Abaddon and the Black Legion are undoubtedly largely pure evil though.

Uh, no, the C'Tan, upon gaining physical bodies, for no reason, decided they wanted to enslave the galaxy and turn it into the universe's largest fast-food restaurant for them, because them living things taste better than stars. The Nightbringer is described as even more sadistic than the Dark Eldar, and indeed, loves nothing more than inflicting misery, suffering, and death upon mortals, to satiate its own twisted hunger.

The Imperium does much of what it does because it HAS to, and contrary to popular belief, most do not view wasting millions upon billions or annihilating their planets as anything but a bad thing, yes, the Imperium's rulers are evil for the most part, but they are necessarily evil. Now, that does not excuse their deeds, but they pale compared to the shameless debauchery of the Dark Eldar, or the unrepetent sadism and greed of the C'tan. I don't know why you seem to think "They do what they do because they want to take over the galaxy" makes them less evil. And they are evil for a reason to. It's called the Horus Heresy. Though, I would honestly label the Emperor as evil as well.

Yeah I guess you're right that they aren't quite as evil as the rest, sometimes my Imperium-hate clouds my objectivity.

**LoneLictor**

Here's how I would rank the factions in order of evil from most to least.

1. Necron
-Necrons are well hidden and have the forces to defend their locations. They could choose to live in peace but instead have decided to declare war on everything and anything.

2. Dark Eldar
-Well duh. But they've been forced to it which is why they aren't at the Number one spot.

3. Chaos/Chaos Space Marines
-Chaos and Chaos Space Marines are extremely diverse, but its quite obvious that most are extremely cruel and selfish and far worse than the Imperium.

4. The Imperium of Man
-Xenophobic, cruel and extremest, the Imperium of Man is not good at all. They are a totalitarian government that barely values civilian life in favor of their insane principles. The Eldar and Tau face the same threats as them all the time yet remain far more moral (heh).

5. Eldar
-Jesus these guys are arrogant and racist and elitist. However, they aren't unnecessarily cruel or totalitarian.

6. Orks
Similar to the Tyranids, the Orks are largely following instincts due to being created as a Warrior caste. However, not all of it is instincts and they are extremely violent and selfish, so these guys definately aren't good.

7. Tau
The Tau are extremely arrogant, but not very xenophobic and they do believe in helping eachother. They're still somewhat evil of course, but not as much as some others.

8. Tyranids
They're just following basic instincts. The only intelligent Tyranids have it about out to outwit, catch and eat things.

**Ascalam**

Pretty much as the above, with one exception.

I would put the IOM in the top spot, above the Necrons.

The necrons are an evil bunch, no doubt, and are led by some of the vilest creatures to ever walk the universe. They chose to worship these critters, and eventually became automaton slaves to them (barring the lords adn a few that still have a vestige of self-awareness.) Moribund guys whose culture/society was created by creatures of ultimate evil.

The IOM are just as nasty to everyone else as the Necrons, barring the occasional brief treaty, and are also amazingly crappy to their own people. Their culture was built by someone that was supposedly the ultimate paladin of shiny goodness. To have fallen to their current state requires far more of a fall to evil than the Necrons had.

**Void__Dragon**

Ascalam wrote:Pretty much as the above, with one exception.

I would put the IOM in the top spot, above the Necrons.

The necrons are an evil bunch, no doubt, and are led by some of the vilest creatures to ever walk the universe. They chose to worship these critters, and eventually became automaton slaves to them (barring the lords adn a few that still have a vestige of self-awareness.) Moribund guys whose culture/society was created by creatures of ultimate evil.

The IOM are just as nasty to everyone else as the Necrons, barring the occasional brief treaty, and are also amazingly crappy to their own people. Their culture was built by someone that was supposedly the ultimate paladin of shiny goodness. To have fallen to their current state requires far more of a fall to evil than the Necrons had.

The Emperor was not as nice a guy as most people would have you believe.

He was arrogant, and a fool, demanding unquestioning obedience, without ever explaining his plans, or really anything to his sons, not even the Primarchs.

He brought the Horus Heresy upon himself.

The Necrontyr hate life. Their motivation is really that simple, and to that end, the upper echelons of their race, the Lords and Immortals, sold their race into slavery... All for the purpose of completely eradicating another race. I repeat: They sold their own race to slavery, to commit genocide on another. That's a particularly vile brand of evil.

**snake**

Check out the chaos section in the rulebook. I forget the details, but Chaos scores a win when attacking imperial naval dockyards or something like that.

**Void__Dragon**

snake wrote:Check out the chaos section in the rulebook. I forget the details, but Chaos scores a win when attacking imperial naval dockyards or something like that.

You're talking about the Antecanis Massacre, I think.

Actually, the dockyard was not what was attacked. Abaddon, in a rare display of competence, decided that to cripple the dockyard, Cancephalus, he would not attack the heavily defended world, but rather, Antecanis, where its workers came from. Once Cancephalus could no longer have workers supplied to it to run the world, the Imperial Navy left it relatively unguarded, and Abaddon proceeded to destroy it.

**Nicholas**

Brother Coa wrote:Exactly. Imperium are not the bad guys, they are not the good guys either, but they are quite neutral to good guys.

And I understand them: every other race and "thing" was trying to kill us since we get up on our feet and spread beyond the boundaries of Sol. After ~20.000 - 30.000 years of that ( Humanity developed Warp drive in ~M20-M30 right? ) I would shot the first non-human on sight to.

Basically every other faction is neutral. Except Chaos ( obvious ), Dark Eldar ( do I really need to explain ) and Necrons ( killing everything because their good needs to feed ).

It's all a matter of perspective. If you live in the IOM everyone else is evil, if you join the Greater Good everyone else is evil. But from our perspective we realize that it's not as black and white as this. Nothing ever is.

**snake**

Void__Dragon wrote:
snake wrote:Check out the chaos section in the rulebook. I forget the details, but Chaos scores a win when attacking imperial naval dockyards or something like that.
You're talking about the Antecanis Massacre, I think.

Actually, the dockyard was not what was attacked. Abaddon, in a rare display of competence, decided that to cripple the dockyard, Cancephalus, he would not attack the heavily defended world, but rather, Antecanis, where its workers came from. Once Cancephalus could no longer have workers supplied to it to run the world, the Imperial Navy left it relatively unguarded, and Abaddon proceeded to destroy it.

Yes, that's it. I was pretty impressed with the description of the chaos planning and execution in this account tbh.

**-Loki-**

DarknessEternal wrote:
Lynata wrote:
The same could be said about the Tyranids. What will happen after they've eaten everything?

Tyranids are less of a threat than Tau. Leviathan is all that remains of them.

Oh, so that's why the Tyranid codex says that there's been more hive fleets entering the system since Leviathan. Because they don't exist?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

LoneLictor wrote:8. Tyranids
They're just following basic instincts. The only intelligent Tyranids have it about out to outwit, catch and eat things.

Completely false. The Tyranids as a whole (ie the hive Mind), are very intelligent. The overall goal of which is to consume, but that just means they dont colonise planets, not that they lack intelligence.

**LoneLictor**

-Loki- wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

LoneLictor wrote:8. Tyranids
They're just following basic instincts. The only intelligent Tyranids have it about out to outwit, catch and eat things.

Completely false. The Tyranids as a whole (ie the hive Mind), are very intelligent. The overall goal of which is to consume, but that just means they dont colonise planets, not that they lack intelligence.

Tyranids are smart, but only smart about eating and reproducing and the things they need to do to accomplish those. They are animals. They aren't like the other factions. Unless you can cite a specific book and page number that says that Tyranids are smart about things other than basic survival despite the fact that they have never displayed it, please go ahead and tell me.

**Ascalam**

They're smart enough to avoid the Outsider's home

They also show evidence of tactics at Macragge, i think it was, pretending to be dead to fool the Ultras and so on.

They also show enough tactical accumen to choke defence lasers into uselessness during invasions and to use wave after wave of expendable gaunts to use up all the enemy's ammunition before sending in more valuable critters

Deathleaper was created to demoralize and terrify the enemy, not to just eat indiscriminately and hide.

It's in the Nid codex, but i don't have it on me to quote vertabim.

**Kilkrazy**

Brother Coa wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:I didn't make a statement. I asked a question.

I answer it and you said that that is not true.
Do you have sources to prove that that is not true?
Actually Kilkrazy just pointed out what was very evident, that your premise is based on an assumption, and you provided insufficient proof for your premise.

Nowhere did Kilkrazy say that your premise was incorrect, only that your reasoning was flawed, your evidence nonexistent.

Just saying.

All right, prompt me evidence that Imperium is "evil"?

To give an example, you said

Brother Coa wrote:-Without the Imperium entire galaxy would be one big Eye of Terror. So the other alien races live only because of Humanity sacrifice.

In other words, the Imperium is not evil because it prevents the Chaos from coming out of the Eye of Terror and attacking all the Aliens.

We know, though, that it is part of the IoM's basic programme to attack all the Aliens. Only the presence of the Chaos prevents the Imperium from moving away from the Eye of Terror to do thiss. Thus the Imperium is evil.

**Brother Coa**

Kilkrazy wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:I didn't make a statement. I asked a question.

I answer it and you said that that is not true.
Do you have sources to prove that that is not true?
Actually Kilkrazy just pointed out what was very evident, that your premise is based on an assumption, and you provided insufficient proof for your premise.

Nowhere did Kilkrazy say that your premise was incorrect, only that your reasoning was flawed, your evidence nonexistent.

Just saying.

All right, prompt me evidence that Imperium is "evil"?

To give an example, you said

Brother Coa wrote:-Without the Imperium entire galaxy would be one big Eye of Terror. So the other alien races live only because of Humanity sacrifice.

In other words, the Imperium is not evil because it prevents the Chaos from coming out of the Eye of Terror and attacking all the Aliens.

We know, though, that it is part of the IoM's basic programme to attack all the Aliens. Only the presence of the Chaos prevents the Imperium from moving away from the Eye of Terror to do this. Thus the Imperium is evil.

So they are evil because of that?
And what happened to need to survive?
And what Aliens? The only aliens existing pre-Heresy was Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar and Laer.
After heresy, they exterminated few races and they even trade with few others?
And you are saying that aliens are not evil?
Orks want to kill everyone and everything, Necrons to. Eldar want's to rule the galaxy, Tau want's to rule the galaxy and Tyranids want's to eat all.
You call them evil I call them neutral, since they must do harsh things to protect themselves from extinction.

**Blackhoof**

Brother Coa wrote:
So they are evil because of that?
And what happened to need to survive?
And what Aliens? The only aliens existing pre-Heresy was Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar and Laer.
After heresy, they exterminated few races and they even trade with few others?
And you are saying that aliens are not evil?
Orks want to kill everyone and everything, Necrons to. Eldar want's to rule the galaxy, Tau want's to rule the galaxy and Tyranids want's to eat all.
You call them evil I call them neutral, since they must do harsh things to protect themselves from extinction.

so.... theo nly aliens pre-heresy were the orks, eldar, dark eldar and laer?

so, you are saying that the hrud, the benghesi, the Cabal, the araklinoid, the kroot, the caradochinoid, the vespids, the cythor fiends, the demiurg, the drax and all the countless races that exist in the millions of star systems through out the galaxy somehow evolved in 10,000 years? the tau i grant would have been ape-like or worse at this stage but still.... this is a big galaxy.

i think that killkrazy was referring to mankind's genocidal urge to exterminate all non-humans they come across. even unaggrassive ones are exterminated without thought. that is bad, and a perceived need for survival. if they simply allied with the tau and eldar long enough to defeat or at least beat back some of the other bad guys, they would stand a better chancve of survival. but no...
Peaceful aliens: we coem in peace, we come with offer of great technology!
Imperium: EXTERMINATUS!

**Emperors Faithful**

LoneLictor wrote:Here's how I would rank the factions in order of evil from most to least.

1. Necron
-Necrons are well hidden and have the forces to defend their locations. They could choose to live in peace but instead have decided to declare war on everything and anything.

2. Dark Eldar
-Well duh. But they've been forced to it which is why they aren't at the Number one spot.

3. Chaos/Chaos Space Marines
-Chaos and Chaos Space Marines are extremely diverse, but its quite obvious that most are extremely cruel and selfish and far worse than the Imperium.

4. The Imperium of Man
-Xenophobic, cruel and extremest, the Imperium of Man is not good at all. They are a totalitarian government that barely values civilian life in favor of their insane principles. The Eldar and Tau face the same threats as them all the time yet remain far more moral (heh).

5. Eldar
-Jesus these guys are arrogant and racist and elitist. However, they aren't unnecessarily cruel or totalitarian.

6. Orks
Similar to the Tyranids, the Orks are largely following instincts due to being created as a Warrior caste. However, not all of it is instincts and they are extremely violent and selfish, so these guys definately aren't good.

7. Tau
The Tau are extremely arrogant, but not very xenophobic and they do believe in helping eachother. They're still somewhat evil of course, but not as much as some others.

8. Tyranids
They're just following basic instincts. The only intelligent Tyranids have it about out to outwit, catch and eat things.

I'd put Dark Eldar at the top of that list. They created Slaanesh through their actions (which were pretty awful), are completely un-repentant and continue to act in a debauched and depraved manner, even when alternatives are open to them. Such as the Cratworlds. And even if their torture was the only way to stave off Slaanesh, they still very much enjoy doing it.

With Necrons, it's more of a job/chore/nuisance.

Tyranids (Hive Mind) and Orks should either be put right behind DE and Necrons on the evil scale, or removed from the list of morality altogether. Either they are blood-crazed lunatics that sadistically enjoy bullying anything weaker than themselves (Orks) or they take a view that compares other sentient beings to cattle (Tyranids).

**Lynata**

The Imperium is evil based not only on its external but also internal policies. It is a totalitarian regime that favours class division, the suppression of freedom and even the most basic rights as well as the persecution of large parts of the population based solely on genetical traits (whilst not caring that a non-existence of health & safety regulations in industrial centers makes for even more mutant births amidst the local workforce) or on accounts of religion.

Now, it should be pointed out that many bad things happen only because of the local nobility, which the Imperium as a whole has granted a rather large amount of leeway as long as the various rulers keep paying the tithes, up to not even interfering with local uprisings as long as they do not threaten to spread and follow certain basic rules (i.e. it can be assumed that the new leaders keep paying obedience and make sure that Imperial laws are followed). Still, in these cases the Imperium is at least guilty by association and by allowing this to go on.

At the end, however, the Imperium's evil can be justified, even if one had to pull arguments such as "fighting fire with fire", "doing what has to be done" or "for the greater good". There are reasons for the policies, nothing happens just because Imperial leaders are a bunch of supervillains. Some may be corrupt, but on the grand scale of things they are merely hardline pragmatists born into a very f...d up galaxy.

In relation to most other factions in 40k, they are certainly one of the "lesser evils".

And in context of the thread, I guess everyone knew who the OP meant when he was talking about "the good guys". Pointing out that the Imperium isn't so good is a valid comment, but somewhat off-topic.

**Spartan 117**

Kilkrazy wrote:Why assume the IM is the good guys?

That is exaclty how the 40k universe is supposed to be taken

**Nicholas**

nomotog wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
All right, prompt me evidence that Imperium is "evil"?

Can you offer evidence that the IoM is not evil?

They are us and obviously we're not evil

**Void__Dragon**

Brother Coa wrote:So they are evil because of that?
And what happened to need to survive?
And what Aliens? The only aliens existing pre-Heresy was Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar and Laer.
After heresy, they exterminated few races and they even trade with few others?
And you are saying that aliens are not evil?
Orks want to kill everyone and everything, Necrons to. Eldar want's to rule the galaxy, Tau want's to rule the galaxy and Tyranids want's to eat all.
You call them evil I call them neutral, since they must do harsh things to protect themselves from extinction.

Uh, no, there were other aliens that existed pre-Heresy.

I notice how you call the Eldar and Tau evil for wanting to rule the galaxy.

Just like how the Imperium does.

The Eldar actually don't want to rule the galaxy, their only goal is to survive, sometimes they commit atrocities to do this, but the Imperium commits atrocities for far less noble causes. Even on their own people, something the Eldar never do. The Imperium is far more evil than the Eldar, and definitely the Tau, who at least tried to use diplomacy.

Ironically, your closing sentence, "You call them evil I call them neutral, since they must do harsh things to protect themselves from extinction," describes the Eldar even better than the Imperium.

The Imperium's evil is sometimes necessary, but sometimes it is not.

Oh, and just so you know, wanna know the real reason the Eye of Terror has not continued to envelop the galaxy? The Necrons, with their pylons serving to contain it, to keep it from spreading.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I'd put Dark Eldar at the top of that list. They created Slaanesh through their actions (which were pretty awful), are completely un-repentant and continue to act in a debauched and depraved manner, even when alternatives are open to them. Such as the Cratworlds. And even if their torture was the only way to stave off Slaanesh, they still very much enjoy doing it.

With Necrons, it's more of a job/chore/nuisance.

Tyranids (Hive Mind) and Orks should either be put right behind DE and Necrons on the evil scale, or removed from the list of morality altogether. Either they are blood-crazed lunatics that sadistically enjoy bullying anything weaker than themselves (Orks) or they take a view that compares other sentient beings to cattle (Tyranids).

Dark Eldar are certainly bad, yeah. Though, would argue the C'tan, and perhaps the upper echelons of the Necrontyr hierarchy are worse.

I agree that Orkz and Hive Mind should be removed from the issue of morality. The Hive Mind is essentially instinct, that is driven by a powerful intellect. The Orkz are... Orkz.

**Lynata**

Void__Dragon wrote:I agree that Orkz and Hive Mind should be removed from the issue of morality. The Hive Mind is essentially instinct, that is driven by a powerful intellect. The Orkz are... Orkz.

Orks are driven by instinct - but if you let that count, doesn't that apply to all the other races as well, to some degree? One might argue that the Imperium's evil is merely the result out of certain combinations of human traits, namely fear and a powerful drive to stick together and follow a leader. Also reminds me of the Milgram experiment.

Many of these things are certainly the result of Imperial culture, yet that culture also has to have a reason to have developed like it did. Similarly, there are individual Orks who are somewhat more cooperative and less destructive than the common horde, indicating that they too have the potential to be different, if only to a certain degree.

**4M2A**

The C'tan aren't much worse than modern day humans. They kill people for food, same as we do to other animals. Our justification is that it's natural and humans have priority because we are more intelligent/special. Exactly the same reasons will support the C'tan, they have to eat and they are superior in everyway to any other creatures we have seen in the 40k setting. The Necrons on the other hand are evil- they joined the C'tan because of jealousy and now fight because they hate life.

**Happygrunt**

Brother Coa wrote:

-Taros was small campaign ( No heavy armor, no true fleet support, no Astartes, no Sisters ) about the Imperium doesn't care ( like Tartarus ). And I am sure that they will one day try to retake it again, this time with larger ( and proper ) force.
( talking about not reading fluff )...

The Raptors and the Adeptus Mechanicus would like to speak with you about the Taros Campaign...

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Taros_Campaign

**Kilkrazy**

Spartan 117 wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:Why assume the IM is the good guys?

That is exaclty how the 40k universe is supposed to be taken

That may be so but it doesn't make the idea correct.

It's perfectly clear that IoM (the notional "good guys") and Chaos (their enemy, i.e. the "bad guys) are the two faces of the same coin. There is little difference between their general behaviour.