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4M2A wrote:The C'tan aren't much worse than modern day humans. They kill people for food, same as we do to other animals. Our justification is that it's natural and humans have priority because we are more intelligent/special. Exactly the same reasons will support the C'tan, they have to eat and they are superior in everyway to any other creatures we have seen in the 40k setting. The Necrons on the other hand are evil- they joined the C'tan because of jealousy and now fight because they hate life.

When a farmer kills a pig for food, does it torture it for sadistic pleasure, feeding off its fear and misery, and when it gives up hope, devour it?

The Nightbringer does. The Outsider does similar, driving its food insane, mad beyond reason, but still preserving a semblance of sanity, hope that they could escape or survive, just to prolong their suffering. The Deceiver enjoys nothing more than manipulating mortals and immortals alike, being partially responsible for the decline of his own species, largely because, well, I guess because he's a dick really, since I don't see what he had to gain from nearly exterminating his species. The Void Dragon is harder to place admittedly.

It's not that they are cosmic horrors that eat mortals for sustenance, despite a less malevolent food-source being readily available.

It's the personal touch they give it, the personal sadistic interest they give to their food.

Kilkrazy wrote:It's perfectly clear that IoM (the notional "good guys") and Chaos (their enemy, i.e. the "bad guys) are the two faces of the same coin. There is little difference between their general behaviour.

Here I must disagree - from our perspective, the Imperium may not be "the good guys", but they are still a much better alternative than Chaos. The latter is an ultimately destructive force, whereas the Imperium aims to preserve. They only think about preserving mankind as a whole without caring for the individual. But still you can lead a rather peaceful live on some agri-farm or as some noble's servant or a worker in some factory ... sure, you can also draw the short straw and be a mutant or a psyker or just some poor guy who's living under the yoke of a particularly cruel feudal lord.

The difference is that if you're living in Chaos-controlled space, you're fu**ed either way. Regardless of whether you're some slave that gets tortured for fun or a cultist sacrificed to the gods or a Blood Pact cannonfodder .. even if you're a CSM you're bound to get shat on simply on the premise of Chaos working on the principle of "might makes right". Enjoy getting stabbed in the back or left behind by your own people. In the Imperium you'd have at least a chance of finding some cameraderie with IG buddies or mercy at the hands of a gentle Sister Hospitaller or lead a peaceful civilian live on a planet completely untouched by violence.

Lynata wrote:Orks are driven by instinct - but if you let that count, doesn't that apply to all the other races as well, to some degree? One might argue that the Imperium's evil is merely the result out of certain combinations of human traits, namely fear and a powerful drive to stick together and follow a leader. Also reminds me of the Milgram experiment.

Many of these things are certainly the result of Imperial culture, yet that culture also has to have a reason to have developed like it did. Similarly, there are individual Orks who are somewhat more cooperative and less destructive than the common horde, indicating that they too have the potential to be different, if only to a certain degree.

While it is true that human concept of morality gives us some sort of bias when looking at other races who may be more inclined towards such behavior, as for your reference to the Milgram experiment, that is actually a pretty good point.

I would actually say most Imperial citizens and guardsmen are not evil, but much of the leadership of the Imperium is, although it is often justified.

The Necrontyr's leaders were not. Most of their race did not want to be encased in Necrodermis and made into undead automotons, but they went along with the Deceiver's trickery, enslaving their race to the C'tan so they may commit genocide on another race out of jealousy.

The Dark Eldar are similar, the Craftworld Eldar knew what they were doing was wrong and would lead to devastation, and even after it did, they don't care, and continue their cruel ways.

Orkz follow a fairly alien code of honor. For instance, most Imperials view mounting the head of an enemy on a pike and waving it around as a barbaric insult. For the Orkz, there is no greater show of respect for a non-Ork.

But I feel like we have seriously digressed from the topic of this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lynata wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:It's perfectly clear that IoM (the notional "good guys") and Chaos (their enemy, i.e. the "bad guys) are the two faces of the same coin. There is little difference between their general behaviour.

Here I must disagree - from our perspective, the Imperium may not be "the good guys", but they are still a much better alternative than Chaos. The latter is an ultimately destructive force, whereas the Imperium aims to preserve. They only think about preserving mankind as a whole without caring for the individual. But still you can lead a rather peaceful live on some agri-farm or as some noble's servant or a worker in some factory ... sure, you can also draw the short straw and be a mutant or a psyker or just some poor guy who's living under the yoke of a particularly cruel feudal lord.

The difference is that if you're living in Chaos-controlled space, you're fu**ed either way. Regardless of whether you're some slave that gets tortured for fun or a cultist sacrificed to the gods or a Blood Pact cannonfodder .. even if you're a CSM you're bound to get shat on simply on the premise of Chaos working on the principle of "might makes right". Enjoy getting stabbed in the back or left behind by your own people. In the Imperium you'd have at least a chance of finding some cameraderie with IG buddies or mercy at the hands of a gentle Sister Hospitaller or lead a peaceful civilian live on a planet completely untouched by violence.

I dunno, I can see the benefit in being a Daemon Prince. That could happen. It doesn't happen "often," but at least there is a chance you can get a pretty okay deal out of working for Chaos.

But yeah, the Imperium is overall much more preferable to Chaos.

Ascalam wrote:They're smart enough to avoid the Outsider's home

They also show evidence of tactics at Macragge, i think it was, pretending to be dead to fool the Ultras and so on.

They also show enough tactical accumen to choke defence lasers into uselessness during invasions and to use wave after wave of expendable gaunts to use up all the enemy's ammunition before sending in more valuable critters

Deathleaper was created to demoralize and terrify the enemy, not to just eat indiscriminately and hide.

It's in the Nid codex, but i don't have it on me to quote vertabim.

That's what I was talking about when I said they had intelligence regarding catchings and eating prey. The only intelligence Tyranids have is regarding survival (the point I've been trying to make). They don't think about other creature's feelings or survival, they only think about them relative to their own survival because that's how Tyranids are made. I dread the day when someone changes the fluff and adds in personalities and infighting and that sort of crap.

Happygrunt wrote:
The Raptors and the Adeptus Mechanicus would like to speak with you about the Taros Campaign...

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Taros_Campaign

Ok, this is one TRUE crusade force:

at least 10 - 15 Space Marine Chapters, 40 - 50 Imperial Guard Regiments ( over 100 if the sector is REALLY important like Cadia ), at least 1 entire Imperial Navy battle force, 1 or 2 Sisters of Battle orders, 1 full Titan Legion ( talking about several Warhaounds, Warlords, and maybe 1 -2 Imperators ). Of course the Guard would have access to Baneblades, Stormblades, Hydras, Vanquishers.... Space Marines would have access to Terminators and Land Raiders, Sisters would bring Living Saint...
As for Adeptus Mechanicus, with Titans they would get Legio Cybernetica forces + Skitarii.

And what have we seen at Taros from all this? 1 Space Marine chapter ( who barely attacked ) and 10 - 15 Guard Regiments with 4 Warhounds and light armor support ( some Leman Russ, Basilisk... ).

Now, what would AM and Raptor wanted to say?

When a farmer kills a pig for food, does it torture it for sadistic pleasure, feeding off its fear and misery, and when it gives up hope, devour it?

The Nightbringer does. The Outsider does similar, driving its food insane, mad beyond reason, but still preserving a semblance of sanity, hope that they could escape or survive, just to prolong their suffering. The Deceiver enjoys nothing more than manipulating mortals and immortals alike, being partially responsible for the decline of his own species, largely because, well, I guess because he's a dick really, since I don't see what he had to gain from nearly exterminating his species. The Void Dragon is harder to place admittedly.

It's not that they are cosmic horrors that eat mortals for sustenance, despite a less malevolent food-source being readily available.

It's the personal touch they give it, the personal sadistic interest they give to their food.

They inflict suffering because it's required. The more pain the creature feels the better it is for food. If causing pain was the only way for us to eat meat we would still do it. We try to reduce the pain because we can but the animals death isn't completely painless, yet we still do it. To them humans are the equivilant of insects. If we had any reason to cause pain to an insect we would do it without thought.

Kilkrazy wrote:

That is exaclty how the 40k universe is supposed to be taken

That may be so but it doesn't make the idea correct.

It's perfectly clear that IoM (the notional "good guys") and Chaos (their enemy, i.e. the "bad guys) are the two faces of the same coin. There is little difference between their general behavior.

This.....is the point.
They are not the evil, nor good - they are grey.
Telling that Imperium are not the "good guys" is telling that the Chaos are not the "bad guys".
In fact, forget that. There are people here who thinks that Chaos are the good guys, no matter if they are based on Satan...

4M2A wrote:They inflict suffering because it's required. The more pain the creature feels the better it is for food. If causing pain was the only way for us to eat meat we would still do it. We try to reduce the pain because we can but the animals death isn't completely painless, yet we still do it. To them humans are the equivilant of insects. If we had any reason to cause pain to an insect we would do it without thought.

It is most certainly not required, nor is eating sentient life (The sentient part is important).

But let us say you are right.

This is still a race of beings who found nothing wrong with cannabilizing their entire race, because the Deceiver told them that C'tan taste better than anything. It is blatant that the C'tan are each narcissistic, utterly self-serving beings, even to their own race, they ate themselves without thinking through the ramifications. No other faction was so eager to turn on itself, putting their own greed and hunger before the survival of their species, something even the Dark Eldar do not do.

to OP: Dude, this is 40k. Evil doesn't have to win. To win hints at some kind of finality, and no "evil" faction wants that. the Orks want constant fightin', Chaos just wants to corrupt and destroy, and the Dark Eldar want to torture and enslave.

And the majority of the Necrons and Nids aren't even "evil", as being evil implies choice. Honestly, The evil factions are having the time of their lives, and they've been "winning" for a good 10,000+ years

Brother Coa wrote:This.....is the point.
They are not the evil, nor good - they are grey.
Telling that Imperium are not the "good guys" is telling that the Chaos are not the "bad guys".
In fact, forget that. There are people here who thinks that Chaos are the good guys, no matter if they are based on Satan...

I don't think anyone said the Chaos are good guys.

Although the Gods themselves are not evil, I would argue they aren't even sentient. They are defined by mortals, any freedom of will on their part is an illusion, all they are is decided by mortals.

carbonpillow wrote:to OP: Dude, this is 40k. Evil doesn't have to win. To win hints at some kind of finality, and no "evil" faction wants that. the Orks want constant fightin', Chaos just wants to corrupt and destroy, and the Dark Eldar want to torture and enslave.

And the majority of the Necrons and Nids aren't even "evil", as being evil implies choice. Honestly, The evil factions are having the time of their lives, and they've been "winning" for a good 10,000+ years

Good point, definition of evil in 40k depend's majorly form the side you have taken.

KillKrazy is for the Tau, for her the Imperium is evil.
I support Humanity, for me the Tau are evil.
Someone who support the Necron don't give a damn, he just want their souls

IMO the criteria for a race being good or evil should be how they treat their own and not other races, specially in a setting where everyone is xenophobic to the extreme and think the universe is theirs by right.

That being said, I think the imperium IS evil in that they butcher their own people for sometimes silly reasons, treat them like crap and don't value life at all.

Polvilhovoador wrote:IMO the criteria for a race being good or evil should be how they treat their own and not other races, specially in a setting where everyone is xenophobic to the extreme and think the universe is theirs by right.

That being said, I think the imperium IS evil in that they butcher their own people for sometimes silly reasons, treat them like crap and don't value life at all.

Yeah silly reason like: "if we don't kill them they will open a rift in the warp and we are talking about 10 planetary systems with 10.000.000.000 people on each."
And when you have ~number of population life can be harsh because advanced tech can't be present everywhere, and because we Humans like our-self very much ( just see the number of states today ) Imperium has disband some civil rights for the grater good of all species. And how can you take the value of life in that kind of situation? In world with 7 billion people it's not easy but it is valued. In world with countless billions, individual is gone - only populations exist.

The criteria of good and evil are overall actions of the entire race. And some of them are worse then the Imperium.

Without the imperium feeding the dark gods it would be less of a threat.

The imperium has NO civil rights, and it's not exactly for the good of the species. If they gave a damn about their people the Imperium would not be the totalitarian theocracy it is in the fluff. Humannity didn't have to try to conquer the whole galaxy in the name of manifest destiny. They could have as easily built a smaller, tighter knit empire with defenses as good as Sol system in every colony system, and expanded slowly. They could also have made alliances with the various xeno races they ran into that didn't imediately try to eat them, instead of wiping them out in the name of false religion

The Imperium is evil. Face it.

Whatever their reasons, whatever the results of the 'end justifies the means' argument the IOM is evil. Possibly the lesser of two evils, bt still far from Good.

Ascalam wrote:If they gave a damn about their people the Imperium would not be the totalitarian theocracy it is in the fluff.

Actually, a totalitarian regime has it much easier to protect its people because it can enact "necessary" policies without getting bogged down by elections and squabbling parties more intent on making each other look bad than actually deal with a problem. Of course, a totalitarian regime is also somewhat more likely to get abused for personal gain of the ruler, so it depends on who's in charge. I'd just ask to drop the idea that totalitarian regimes are about evil and liberalism is always good. We're not in the Cold War era anymore and there are plenty current examples on why such a thought is just plain wrong.

Also interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism#Difference_between_authoritarian_and_totalitarian_regimes
I think that chart is pretty accurate, applied to the Imperium.

Also, humanity didn't conquer the whole galaxy as the Imperium - they did that way before. When the Emperor came into power, the colonies already existed and mankind experienced a kind of "racial obligation" to liberate the worlds that have been isolated for so long. From this perspective, the Imperium is merely trying to protect and save what already existed and reconnect the "lost brothers and sisters" amidst the stars with their origin.

As for the xeno races: Paranoia and bad experience. I won't justify genocide here, but the Imperium doesn't just eradicate other species because they have fun doing so. At the end of the day, I would agree that the Imperium's external policy is an "evil aspect", but there's good and neutral ones as well, as much as you may want to dismiss them. It's what slightly lessens the impact of the most atrocious acts and allows the Imperium to remain a "lesser evil" with lots of shades of grey as opposed to a comicbook villain organization.

Ascalam wrote:Without the imperium feeding the dark gods it would be less of a threat.

The imperium has NO civil rights, and it's not exactly for the good of the species. If they gave a damn about their people the Imperium would not be the totalitarian theocracy it is in the fluff. Humannity didn't have to try to conquer the whole galaxy in the name of manifest destiny. They could have as easily built a smaller, tighter knit empire with defenses as good as Sol system in every colony system, and expanded slowly. They could also have made alliances with the various xeno races they ran into that didn't imediately try to eat them, instead of wiping them out in the name of false religion ( HERESY!!! *BLAM* )

The Imperium is evil. Face it.

Whatever their reasons, whatever the results of the 'end justifies the means' argument the IOM is evil. Possibly the lesser of two evils, bt still far from Good.

Hearing it from the mouth of the Ork fan....
Now go and play war and let the philosophy to wiser beings

Brother Coa wrote:Hearing it from the mouth of the Ork fan....
Now go and play war and let the philosophy to wiser beings

You're oddly arrogant.

And not in a way that suggests your arrogance is justified, either.

I cannot help but notice you aren't particularly prone to actually addressing the separate points of an opposing post.

What does him being an Ork fan have to do with it by the way?

My arrogance is justified because everyone else is arrogant when it comes to: "my race is the best, the other suck balls".

And Ork fans don't like the Imperium, neither do Tau fans, Chaos fans...

You are Necron fan so you don't like it either. And since noone is neutral, everyone will make their side look good and other look bad.

I am just defending the Imperium because no one else want's. Because Imperium is not evil as other suggest, true some of their methods are harsh but they are good in general ( Chaos and Imperium are same side of the same coin, what KillKrazy said. Chaos = evil side, Imperium = good side ).

And now, because he is an Ork fan, he will just adress the worst ofd the Imperium and ignore all the rest, like I would say everything worse about the Ork and ignore all the rest. And each fan is truly dedicated to his race fluff, and do real little about other ( this point was proven in numerous threads ). I know 90% of Imperium fluff but know only about 30 - 40% of Ork fluff, same I can say for him about Imperial fluff.

Now, let us return to OP before this thread goes under lock-down.

Brother Coa wrote:My arrogance is justified because everyone else is arrogant when it comes to: "my race is the best, the other suck balls".

And Ork fans don't like the Imperium, neither do Tau fans, Chaos fans...

You are Necron fan so you don't like it either. And since noone is neutral, everyone will make their side look good and other look bad.

I am just defending the Imperium because no one else want's. Because Imperium is not evil as other suggest, true some of their methods are harsh but they are good in general ( Chaos and Imperium are same side of the same coin, what KillKrazy said. Chaos = evil side, Imperium = good side ).

And now, because he is an Ork fan, he will just adress the worst ofd the Imperium and ignore all the rest, like I would say everything worse about the Ork and ignore all the rest. And each fan is truly dedicated to his race fluff, and do real little about other ( this point was proven in numerous threads ). I know 90% of Imperium fluff but know only about 30 - 40% of Ork fluff, same I can say for him about Imperial fluff.

Now, let us return to OP before this thread goes under lock-down.

That's not justified. Even assuming that is true, why stoop to that level?

Am I a Necron fan? Absolutely, they are my favorite faction. I am also an Ork fan. I like Chaos, Daemons and Marines. I like the Dark Eldar. Hell, I actually like the Tau too, and some of the Eldar.

But wanna know something else? I like the Imperium. I like the Imperial Guard, the Grey Knights, the Black Templars, the Inquisition in general, there are even Ultramarines I like, Scout Sgt. Torias Telion is a badass. Don't assume that because I am a fan of one faction, that I don't like another. Don't make that assumption at all, really.

The Imperium is not "good," it is morally grey, it commits even sometimes because it really has to, yet there are times they don't, and many leaders of the Imperium are corrupt besides that. Now, the Imperium are certainly more sympathetic and good than the Necrons (Notice how, despite them being my favorite faction, I readily admit they are evil), C'tan, Dark Eldar, most followers of Chaos, Daemons, the Orkz (Although evil is a term that arguably does not apply to them), and the Tyranids (It certainly does not apply to them). Also, I like to think, although I probably know more about Necron fluff than any other, I try to keep up with current fluff with the other factions. Like I said, stop assuming things about people and dismissing their arguments based on your own assumption.

Well I already addressed the RP. Evil does win at times. Or, all the time.

Brother Coa wrote:My arrogance is justified because everyone else is arrogant when it comes to: "my race is the best, the other suck balls".

And Ork fans don't like the Imperium, neither do Tau fans, Chaos fans...

You are Necron fan so you don't like it either. And since noone is neutral, everyone will make their side look good and other look bad.

I am just defending the Imperium because no one else want's. Because Imperium is not evil as other suggest, true some of their methods are harsh but they are good in general ( Chaos and Imperium are same side of the same coin, what KillKrazy said. Chaos = evil side, Imperium = good side ).

And now, because he is an Ork fan, he will just adress the worst ofd the Imperium and ignore all the rest, like I would say everything worse about the Ork and ignore all the rest. And each fan is truly dedicated to his race fluff, and do real little about other ( this point was proven in numerous threads ). I know 90% of Imperium fluff but know only about 30 - 40% of Ork fluff, same I can say for him about Imperial fluff.

"You are an X fan so you don't like the Y or Z. Since you are an X fan you will address the best of the X and ignore the rest."

This debate can be applied to anything and everything. It seems lazy to me. Rather than using specific evidence you decide to take the generic "My opponent is biased" approach. Hopefully I can dispel that by pointing out I am a Chaos Space Marine player that complains that Games Workshop has too many Imperial Codexes, yet I admitted that Chaos and Chaos Space Marines are waaaay more evil and selfish than the Imperium.

Here are some reasons that I think the Imperium is evil.

1. They kill people that don't worship the God Emperor, despite the fact that he has been mostly dead for the past 10,000 years.
2. They destroyed a democratic, peaceful human society because it interacted with Xenos.
3. This one is subtle, but notice that the High Lords of Terra, Tech Priests and most Chapter Masters are white males.
4. They are willing to kill all of the inhabitants of a planet and destroy all of its resources just so that the enemy doesn't get it.
5. They believe all humans are superior to Xenos.
6. The Eldar and Tau are willing to be peaceful but most of the time the Imperium refuses and fights them.

Back on topic, the Imperium wins the most because it has the most fans. If another race got too large of a victory they'd get upset. Look at how many people claim the Imperium is winning the 13th Black Crusade. If the Tyranids had the most fans you'd see a bunch of posts claimed Hive Fleet Behemoth was still around and powerful threat. Also, if the Tyranids had the most fans they'd have destroyed Armageddon or some major but not too major planet.

And that is what I am telling people: Imperium is not black and white - it's grey ( not my own assumption - but a fact ).
And I am glad that you are not like: "One our solder can totally kill million your's" people. And even if I am Imperium fan I admit that Imperium can't defeat it's enemies at it's current strength ( they can't even hold down their territories because they spread to thin and recruit to few military groups ). And I read almost all of other faction's fluff ( but I don't know much about Dark Eldar ) and I like Eldar and Tau to. But to many people read only fluff for their won selected race.

And that evil win all the times. Maybe, but good always triumph at the end. Or unless GW decide that Chaos won anyway and this debate is for nothing

Brother Coa wrote:And that is what I am telling people: Imperium is not black and white - it's grey ( not my own assumption - but a fact ).
And I am glad that you are not like: "One our solder can totally kill million your's" people. And even if I am Imperium fan I admit that Imperium can't defeat it's enemies at it's current strength ( they can't even hold down their territories because they spread to thin and recruit to few military groups ). And I read almost all of other faction's fluff ( but I don't know much about Dark Eldar ) and I like Eldar and Tau to. But to many people read only fluff for their won selected race.

And that evil win all the times. Maybe, but good always triumph at the end. Or unless GW decide that Chaos won anyway and this debate is for nothing

Yes, compared to the more villainous factions, it is indeed grey (Although, worshippers of Chaos tend to be somewhat grey at times, although that is de-emphasized in the fluff).

Well, one Necron is kind of much better than a single guardsman though.

That is kind of the point, the Imperium is the strongest unified fighting force in the galaxy at the moment, but it is still fighting a losing war, assailed by too many enemies on all fronts, and spread too thin as you said.

I would highly recommend giving the 5e Dark Eldar codex a read, the fluff is really good.

Well, there are at least two Eldar prophecies giving the nod in terms of the long-term victory to Chaos and the Necrons respectively. But Farseers have been wrong before.

A happy ending is virtually impossible in 40k though, it's kind of the point. All dat grimdark.

LoneLictor wrote:
"You are an X fan so you don't like the Y or Z. Since you are an X fan you will address the best of the X and ignore the rest."

This debate can be applied to anything and everything. It seems lazy to me. Rather than using specific evidence you decide to take the generic "My opponent is biased" approach. Hopefully I can dispel that by pointing out I am a Chaos Space Marine player that complains that Games Workshop has too many Imperial Codexes, yet I admitted that Chaos and Chaos Space Marines are waaaay more evil and selfish than the Imperium.

Here are some reasons that I think the Imperium is evil.

1. They kill people that don't worship the God Emperor, despite the fact that he has been mostly dead for the past 10,000 years.
2. They destroyed a democratic, peaceful human society because it interacted with Xenos.
3. This one is subtle, but notice that the High Lords of Terra, Tech Priests and most Chapter Masters are white males.
4. They are willing to kill all of the inhabitants of a planet and destroy all of its resources just so that the enemy doesn't get it.
5. They believe all humans are superior to Xenos.
6. The Eldar and Tau are willing to be peaceful but most of the time the Imperium refuses and fights them.

Really I need to get to sleep...
And in case you didn't know it is rumored that people in GW really believe in the Imperial Creed so don't be to much surprised.

1. True, but as every other fanatics today. Tau also kill those who don't embrace the grater good ( just see Crusades, Yugoslav civil war... ).
2. Because they are traitors. This is the most important time in history for our entire race and we can't afford that every planet has it's own empire, republic or xeno alliance. And people often run toward aliens because the aliens trick them or because their Governor want's more power for himself ( Fire and Honor ).
3. This is true, there are no blacks in 40k ( besides 1 Inquisitor ) and we rarely see Asians. I read somewhere on this site that this is explained via Human evolution. That all will one day bew only Caucasians. But there are Salamanders who are all black. Maybe GW don't like blacks? Maybe it is something else? Either way, this doesn't have anything to do with Imperium being evil.
4. They do that VERY rarely, only if planet is beyond saving ( like massive Chaos, Ork and Tyranid invasion ). Because even Imperium doesn't destroy useful worlds. And they only leave population to die when extract is impossible or when they are all tainted by Chaos.
5. And what is wrong with that? Do they need to think that they are weak and cannot oppose anyone? Please, every race and faction believe that they are superior in every way again other ones...
6. WTF are you saying, did you take LSD or something? Eldar: "Let's left billion of Humans to die to save 10 our's. No matter, they are anyway just animals to be slaughtered." As for Eldar Helping just see Aurelian Crusade how helpful they were: "Let us destroy the 3 Human worlds and then the Tyranids will evade our Craftworld. - But Farseer, why don't we ally with Humans and beat the Tyranids together? -Because they are animals and we have nothing to do with them.". Or Tau: "We are in peace with the Imperium. No matter, let us attack their worlds, annex and slaughtered their populations and then sing another peace treaty so we can do it again. ( Nimbosa )". Tau are allowing Humans to live with them, but we simply don't know anything about them to speculate that Humans are living well ( there are even rumors about sterilization and such, but again - just rumors ).

And good that you saw that Chaos are evil, I was afraid you will present them as "good" guys...

As far as Armageddon is concerned weren't the Orks steered there by the Eldar, if so couldn't the whole Armageddon thing be a win?

Brother Coa wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:
"You are an X fan so you don't like the Y or Z. Since you are an X fan you will address the best of the X and ignore the rest."

This debate can be applied to anything and everything. It seems lazy to me. Rather than using specific evidence you decide to take the generic "My opponent is biased" approach. Hopefully I can dispel that by pointing out I am a Chaos Space Marine player that complains that Games Workshop has too many Imperial Codexes, yet I admitted that Chaos and Chaos Space Marines are waaaay more evil and selfish than the Imperium.

Here are some reasons that I think the Imperium is evil.

1. They kill people that don't worship the God Emperor, despite the fact that he has been mostly dead for the past 10,000 years.
2. They destroyed a democratic, peaceful human society because it interacted with Xenos.
3. This one is subtle, but notice that the High Lords of Terra, Tech Priests and most Chapter Masters are white males.
4. They are willing to kill all of the inhabitants of a planet and destroy all of its resources just so that the enemy doesn't get it.
5. They believe all humans are superior to Xenos.
6. The Eldar and Tau are willing to be peaceful but most of the time the Imperium refuses and fights them.

Really I need to get to sleep...
And in case you didn't know it is rumored that people in GW really believe in the Imperial Creed so don't be to much surprised.

1. True, but as every other fanatics today. Tau also kill those who don't embrace the grater good ( just see Crusades, Yugoslav civil war... ).
2. Because they are traitors. This is the most important time in history for our entire race and we can't afford that every planet has it's own empire, republic or xeno alliance. And people often run toward aliens because the aliens trick them or because their Governor want's more power for himself ( Fire and Honor ).
3. This is true, there are no blacks in 40k ( besides 1 Inquisitor ) and we rarely see Asians. I read somewhere on this site that this is explained via Human evolution. That all will one day bew only Caucasians. But there are Salamanders who are all black. Maybe GW don't like blacks? Maybe it is something else? Either way, this doesn't have anything to do with Imperium being evil.
4. They do that VERY rarely, only if planet is beyond saving ( like massive Chaos, Ork and Tyranid invasion ). Because even Imperium doesn't destroy useful worlds. And they only leave population to die when extract is impossible or when they are all tainted by Chaos.
5. And what is wrong with that? Do they need to think that they are weak and cannot oppose anyone? Please, every race and faction believe that they are superior in every way again other ones...
6. WTF are you saying, did you take LSD or something? Eldar: "Let's left billion of Humans to die to save 10 our's. No matter, they are anyway just animals to be slaughtered." As for Eldar Helping just see Aurelian Crusade how helpful they were: "Let us destroy the 3 Human worlds and then the Tyranids will evade our Craftworld. - But Farseer, why don't we ally with Humans and beat the Tyranids together? -Because they are animals and we have nothing to do with them.". Or Tau: "We are in peace with the Imperium. No matter, let us attack their worlds, annex and slaughtered their populations and then sing another peace treaty so we can do it again. ( Nimbosa )". Tau are allowing Humans to live with them, but we simply don't know anything about them to speculate that Humans are living well ( there are even rumors about sterilization and such, but again - just rumors ).

And good that you saw that Chaos are evil, I was afraid you will present them as "good" guys...

About Chaos being evil, I'm not an idiot. That's actually why I play as Chaos Space Marines. Evil is fun. That's also why I think I might start an Imperial army.

1. Yeah, but not every race is a fanatic. That's like saying its okay to be a murderer because there are multiple murderers.

2. Those aliens lived in peace with them and the society was democratic, therefore the governor couldn't be trying to steal power. They destroyed them because they wanted more power. That's all.

3. Yes it does. You can't ignore fluff on the grounds that "There might be a reason that someone on this forum thought of." Its clearly racist and sexist.

4. Source please.

5. I'm not talking about factions, I'm talking about RACES. They believe they are racially superior and smarter and the galaxy belongs to them because of this. I hope you understand that this is not a good thing. This is a bad thing.

6. This is the one thing I was actually wrong on, I'll admit. The rest of my points are still valid. However I think I read somewhere (I believe the Tau codex, I'll have to check) that the Tau initially tried to be peaceful to humans and the Imperium responded badly, which caused the Tau to view them as enemies. Nevertheless I'm not completely sure about this so I'll have to check.

Evil already has won in 40k and humanity is doomed to die out thanks to the ignorance and corruption of it's leaders.
For now and perhaps the next few millenia ( or even just decades if the Golden Throne actually fails ) the Imperium of Man will subsist on an ever decreasing amount of knowledge
but one day this will no longer be enough and the Realm of Man will fall, and with it the entire galaxy ( or at least those parts which aren't Orks, Tyranids or Necrons ).

I just read this entire thread. Wow.

I saw it approached in a few posts but no one actually came out and said it- the OP is flawed because of the subjective nature of opinion. The concepts of "good" and "evil" are created by personal values, but those definitions become invalidated when presented by opinions to the contrary. I have cats as pets. Other people eat cats. Are those people evil? I may think so, but is my opinion unequivocal? No.

Skalk Bloodaxe wrote:I just read this entire thread. Wow.

I saw it approached in a few posts but no one actually came out and said it- the OP is flawed because of the subjective nature of opinion. The concepts of "good" and "evil" are created by personal values, but those definitions become invalidated when presented by opinions to the contrary. I have cats as pets. Other people eat cats. Are those people evil? I may think so, but is my opinion unequivocal? No.

Ah, the pleasures of moral relativism. Able to defend even the worst depravity with a hint towards the suposed subjectivity of morals.

Define depravity.

The Imperium is evil by necessity, it acts according to realism and can't really be judged when compared to its peers.


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A lot of the suffering it creates is not needless and I'd say much 'evil' that is perpetrated by the Imperium can be justified; few die needlessly.