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I have been reading through alot of fluff lately and noticed one thing.

The bad guys never win. By bad guys I mean chaos, daemons get spanked every time they come from the warp. Chaos space maries also get spanked around whenever they leave the eye of terror.

So am i missing anything? do the bad guys ever win? why are they even still trying? gak even when they are in the warp they get spanked around by one man(Draigo).

Read Storm of Iron by Graham McNeil.


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The short story anthology Dark Imperium, which provides a set of glimpses into nearly every aspect of the setting, includes a few stories where you could say that evil won, I guess.

Or are you referring to studio canon? Don't the respective armies always contain a few victories in their Codices?

Non-Imperial Forces have some pretty epic wins.

Examples

13th BC - Cadia lie in a shatter ruin of its former self.
Taros - IoM suffers a terrible loss against both Tau and renegade PDF.
Macragge - Population was killed to the last few defenders... Planet's population - wiped.


Hell, even the Horus Heresy was actually a massive defeat of the IoM. The Emperor was nearly killed by his own son, and had waged a war against his OWN forces in a terrible conflict that crippled the Human Empire.


Bad guy victories are usually shown from a good guy perspective in 40K. But keep in mind that Daemons define victories in bloodshed, Tau define them in expanding, DE define them in raids, Eldar define them in survival and Nids define them in eating etc etc... So for the intent of victories, the enemies of man have quite a few solid wins.

It's easy to lose sight of that when you focus on one enemy of the IoM, but keep in mind that they are fighting a ton of enemies and losing as many battles as they are winning. For evey planet that has Cadian Storm Troopers and Space Marine support, dozens are holding out with average Guard and PDF forces.

Why assume the IM is the good guys?

Kilkrazy wrote:Why assume the IM is the good guys?

This is way more interesting.


Though back to the OP, I'd wonder what he classes a 'win'. By Ork standards they always end up winning.

- The Cadian Gate lies in ruins ( altough the fighting still goes on )
- The worlds of the Boros Gate, once the pride of the White Consuls, lie burned and broken
- The Black Consuls have been wiped out/ almost wiped out by the Word Bearers
- Hivefleet Leviathan has yet to be stoped
- The important armory world of Vraks was neutralized by the forces of Chaos
- The war for Armageddon binds ever greater resources since the orks there have, despite monumental efforts by the Imperium of Man, yet to be defeated
- The Bakka shipyards, naval base for segmentum tempestus, have been criticaly damaged by the Dark Eldar
- Gryphonne IV, one of only two worlds to produce the Vanquisher canon, has been devoured by Leviathan

to mention just a few ocassions where "evil" did win.

Kilkrazy wrote:Why assume the IM is the good guys?

-Without the Imperium entire galaxy would be one big Eye of Terror. So the other alien races live only because of Humanity sacrifice.
-Imperial is somewhat responsible for continued survival of "less-violent alien races" ( Eldar and Tau ) by fighting of Chaos, Orks, Tyranids and Necrons.
-Because the Imperium is using pure psychic energy against the pure chaotic energies of Chaos.
-Because they are know to work with aliens, hence even to help them regain their possessions ( Malan' tai ).
-Because some of them care about Imperium's citizens and they are fighting to the death to protect them ( Ultramrines, Space Wolves, Sisters of Battle... ).

Now to recon some of the mistakes made here:

-Taros was small campaign ( No heavy armor, no true fleet support, no Astartes, no Sisters ) about the Imperium doesn't care ( like Tartarus ). And I am sure that they will one day try to retake it again, this time with larger ( and proper ) force.
-Index Astartes III tells us that Tyranids DIDN'T kill the entire population of Macragge. Most in the population was in the capital while the main Tyranid invasion force was on the Northern Fortress. When the fortress was overrun only then the Tyranids marched toward capital. But the space above them was already controlled by Imperial Navy so...they bombed the gak out of them.
-13BC, even if most of Cadia is undre Chaos control. The rest of the planet is NOT in ruins. And Chaos forces are losing ground every day since Imperial Navy controls the sky above the planet. Reinforcements are coming but it will be a while because of newly formed warp storm's around Cadia.

( talking about not reading fluff )...

-abaddon wiped out the hive world of Antecanis which was supplying a vital shipyard.
-an ork warlord supplied with tau technology is bashing the crap out of Farsight as we speak (not imperial, but tau count
-those bloody smurfs got defeated at damnos by the necrons
-abaddon stole the blackstone fortresses and the rest were destroyed. they were the only weapon able to kill the c'tan as well.

Actually there are no good guys in the 40k universe. There's just the slightly questionable type of evil, such as the IoM, then the greater evils, such as Chaos, Dark Eldar, etc. Also the instinctual races, Orks and Tyranids, where their morality is even more questionable as they do not seem to even have an understanding of the difference and do as their instincts instruct.

IoM is also the biggest contributor to Chaos, their existence fuels it basically. Fighting it powers Khorne, diseases and sickness power nurgle, pride powers Slaneesh, scheming powers Tzeentch; and that's just the negative aspects as honor would also fuel Khorne for example. If Chaos ever did manage to defeat the IoM they would probably have to find more beings capable of providing them with energy or fade back into the immaterium, ceasing to be a real threat.

Main reason being, if any of the races would be the current definition of good, then they would be too weak and fail the thrive in the 40k's grim dark universe. Mostly because they would likely hesitate to go the extra bit further to ensure their survival.

KingDeath wrote:- The Cadian Gate lies in ruins ( altough the fighting still goes on )
- The worlds of the Boros Gate, once the pride of the White Consuls, lie burned and broken
- The Black Consuls have been wiped out/ almost wiped out by the Word Bearers
- Hivefleet Leviathan has yet to be stoped
- The important armory world of Vraks was neutralized by the forces of Chaos
- The war for Armageddon binds ever greater resources since the orks there have, despite monumental efforts by the Imperium of Man, yet to be defeated
- The Bakka shipyards, naval base for segmentum tempestus, have been criticaly damaged by the Dark Eldar
- Gryphonne IV, one of only two worlds to produce the Vanquisher canon, has been devoured by Leviathan

to mention just a few ocassions where "evil" did win.

-true. But Imperium won regardless and large number of Chaos marines were killed there.
-true.
-there is no info to confirm that, neither to confirm that they survived ( Fire Hawks ).
-true, since the last 2 tendrils are going toward Baal and Terra they will met quite the resistance.
-true, but the world is again under Imperial control and they are rebuilding.
-true, but the Orks that left there are feral at most. And they are being picked down by Armageddon Ork hunters.
-true, but the attacked was stooped and repairs are ongoing.
-true.

Now for the good guys:

-Maugan Ra alone defeated entire Tyranid invasion force.
-One Hive fleet destroyed at Macragge, other at Iyanden ( heavy losses but still... )
-1/3 of Leviathan destroyed at Tarsis Ultra.
-Imperials and Tau destroyed Hive Fleet Gorgon.
-Eldar and Imperials destroyed remains of Kraken.
-Grey Knights stooped numerous Daemon incursions and killed unknown name of Grater Daemons.
-Sabbat Worlds, Nimbosa, Zeist and many other returned to Imperial control.
-Eldar destroy Abadon's planet killer ( heavy losses but still... ).
-Mephiston alone tear trough Tyranid main force.
-Draigo makes show in the warp: "How to piss off Chaos Gods".

evil so fail in comparison to this...



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Blackhoof wrote:
-those bloody smurfs got defeated at damnos by the necrons

Actually, they were just holding the line until civilians evac. That was in some sort victory for them ( no matter the world was lost ). Did you mentioned that they killed Necron Lord as well....?

Really, despite what Brother Coa says, any instance where the Imperium is forced to resort to an Exterminatus is a loss for the Imperium. Damnos was a loss, there's no way around that.

I also have no idea what you are talking about when you say the Imperium is:

1) Preventing the whole galaxy being a single Eye of Terra
2) Protecting the Tau and Eldar from other Xenos. They will ussually actively try to kill both these races any real chance they get.

You seem to be wearing rose-tinted glasses when you look at the Imperium, Coa.

Brother Coa wrote:
-Without the Imperium entire galaxy would be one big Eye of Terror. So the other alien races live only because of Humanity sacrifice.
-Imperial is somewhat responsible for continued survival of "less-violent alien races" ( Eldar and Tau ) by fighting of Chaos, Orks, Tyranids and Necrons.
-Because the Imperium is using pure psychic energy against the pure chaotic energies of Chaos.
-Because they are know to work with aliens, hence even to help them regain their possessions ( Malan' tai ).
-Because some of them care about Imperium's citizens and they are fighting to the death to protect them ( Ultramrines, Space Wolves, Sisters of Battle... ).

- Where did you read this?? If you refer to the age of strife, its end has othing to do with mankind. It reached its climax at Slaanesh's birth and the warp storms then subsided. If anything it is spectualted that humanity will be responsible for a second Fall, culminating in the birth of a fifth Chaos god and another Eye of Terror covering the entire imperium.

- Well, as much as they fight those races as well. Tau are no less violent than the Imperium, having the Fire Caste dedicated to warfare, and the foundations of their survival and success being through compliance and violence. The Eldar survive through violence as well; the craftworlds being massive fortresses. They have an entirer path dedicated to bloodshed, embodying Khaine, the god of war. They are not so much peaceful as dedicated to aesthetisism.

- Chaos is composed of psychic energy, and if you mean the Emporer, he is one of the very few benign elements of the IoM, which has fallen from the Emporer's ideal vision of mankind long ago.

- Imperials? Aliens? BURN THE HERETIC!!! They will only work alongside xenos for their own benifit, otherwise any interaction is not tolerated.

- The Astartes are seperate organisations to the Adeptus Terra, Inquisition, etc. and do not represent the views of the greater Imperium. The goal of most governments is to benifit their people by enforcing law and order and ensuring the continued survival of that government. The methods by which they do so however, are a different matter. A benificial government will work on the economy of the entire nation, and the imperium does not do so, however difficult it may be. It would not be uncommon to purposefully maintain poor conditions on some planets in order to attract recruits for the IG, factories, etc.

( talking about not reading fluff )...

Likewise

Emperors Faithful wrote:Really, despite what Brother Coa says, any instance where the Imperium is forced to resort to an Exterminatus is a loss for the Imperium. Damnos was a loss, there's no way around that.

I also have no idea what you are talking about when you say the Imperium is:

1) Preventing the whole galaxy being a single Eye of Terra
2) Protecting the Tau and Eldar from other Xenos. They will ussually actively try to kill both these races any real chance they get.

You seem to be wearing rose-tinted glasses when you look at the Imperium, Coa.

It's not like that. really.....
Just look like this.

1)People said that if Horus win the Horus Heresy Milky Way would be one big Eye of Terror. Not that I believe that but, seing what Horus planes were, he would eventually make every world worship Chaos Gods and in the end whole Imperium would be covered in Warp storms. And the rest of the galaxy would just follow.
2) Just see at and tell me that Behemoth and Kraken wouldn't invade Tau Empire if not stooped. Also Imperial s and Tau work together to stop Tyranids. and as it was under 1, by Killing Horus the Emperor limit Chaos dominance in the galaxy to Eye of Terror. Thus saving the life of every living creature in Milky Way and enabling the Evolution of the Tau and others ( not their attention but this is the result ).

This is how I see the Imperium's "good" side, don't know about the others...

Brother Coa wrote:
1)People said that if Horus win the Horus Heresy Milky Way would be one big Eye of Terror. Not that I believe that but, seing what Horus planes were, he would eventually make every world worship Chaos Gods and in the end whole Imperium would be covered in Warp storms. And the rest of the galaxy would just follow.

I fail to see what Horus' sucess or failure has to do with the Imperium's continued existence. Everyone knows that Horus winning would not have been a really happy event. This doesn't really make the Imperium (as it exists now) 'good'.

2) Just see at and tell me that Behemoth and Kraken wouldn't invade Tau Empire if not stooped. Also Imperial s and Tau work together to stop Tyranids. and as it was under 1, by Killing Horus the Emperor limit Chaos dominance in the galaxy to Eye of Terror. Thus saving the life of every living creature in Milky Way and enabling the Evolution of the Tau and others ( not their attention but this is the result ).

Exactly. Not their intention. If the Imperium had it's way every single Eldar and Tau (insert xenos here) man, woman and child would be put to the sword. Unless they could find some real use for them, then it would only be slavery.

Deathly Angel wrote:
- Where did you read this?? If you refer to the age of strife, its end has othing to do with mankind. It reached its climax at Slaanesh's birth and the warp storms then subsided. If anything it is spectualted that humanity will be responsible for a second Fall, culminating in the birth of a fifth Chaos god and another Eye of Terror covering the entire imperium.

If nothing else, the Emperor stalled the Chaos Gods when killing Horus. For he would without doubt convert every Human world in the service of Chaos, Daemons would appear, Warp Storms also...galaxy would be one big Eye of Terror. That would be the opinion of neutral side, and don't believe some apocalyptic group talking nonsense about the end of the galaxy. It's heresy.

- Well, as much as they fight those races as well. Tau are no less violent than the Imperium, having the Fire Caste dedicated to warfare, and the foundations of their survival and success being through compliance and violence. The Eldar survive through violence as well; the craftworlds being massive fortresses. They have an entirer path dedicated to bloodshed, embodying Khaine, the god of war. They are not so much peaceful as dedicated to aesthetisism.

what? Every country in the world has it's military forces ( even Vatican ) so does that mean that they are violent? Tau are in peace with the Imperium ( officialy ) and don't attack Imperial worlds all the time, Eldar to. And both factions sometimes work with the Humanity. So your point was disproved.

- Chaos is composed of psychic energy, and if you mean the Emporer, he is one of the very few benign elements of the IoM, which has fallen from the Emporer's ideal vision of mankind long ago.

I really don't know what that has to do with Sisters of Battle using the act's of Faith or Grey Knights using their devastating psychic powers.

- Imperials? Aliens? BURN THE HERETIC!!! They will only work alongside xenos for their own benifit, otherwise any interaction is not tolerated.

True, but they all work together in a time of need. + the Inquisition have secret pact's and alliances with certain Eldar Craftworlds. Adn Imperium is in peace with Tau, so....

- The Astartes are seperate organisations to the Adeptus Terra, Inquisition, etc. and do not represent the views of the greater Imperium. The goal of most governments is to benifit their people by enforcing law and order and ensuring the continued survival of that government. The methods by which they do so however, are a different matter. A benificial government will work on the economy of the entire nation, and the imperium does not do so, however difficult it may be. It would not be uncommon to purposefully maintain poor conditions on some planets in order to attract recruits for the IG, factories, etc.

Ok, but you are missing the point, today's Governments don't have a problem of our entire race going extinct. And, in my opinion, none can say otherwise if not being in their situation. All that organizations are looking toward the protection of Mankind as a whole, Imperial Guard on top of them all. But sometimes they have to make tough decisions ( if I had to chose between my life and 10.000.000 people I would gladly step forward and take a bullet in the head for them to live ). And talking about worlds and their tech people on Dakka have concluded - the grater the distances the grater would be difference in tech ( just look at the STC ).

( talking about not reading fluff )...

Likewise

Brother Coa wrote:

KingDeath wrote:- The Cadian Gate lies in ruins ( altough the fighting still goes on )
- The worlds of the Boros Gate, once the pride of the White Consuls, lie burned and broken
- The Black Consuls have been wiped out/ almost wiped out by the Word Bearers
- Hivefleet Leviathan has yet to be stoped
- The important armory world of Vraks was neutralized by the forces of Chaos
- The war for Armageddon binds ever greater resources since the orks there have, despite monumental efforts by the Imperium of Man, yet to be defeated
- The Bakka shipyards, naval base for segmentum tempestus, have been criticaly damaged by the Dark Eldar
- Gryphonne IV, one of only two worlds to produce the Vanquisher canon, has been devoured by Leviathan

to mention just a few ocassions where "evil" did win.

-true. But Imperium won regardless and large number of Chaos marines were killed there.
-true.
-there is no info to confirm that, neither to confirm that they survived ( Fire Hawks ).
-true, since the last 2 tendrils are going toward Baal and Terra they will met quite the resistance.
-true, but the world is again under Imperial control and they are rebuilding.
-true, but the Orks that left there are feral at most. And they are being picked down by Armageddon Ork hunters.
-true, but the attacked was stooped and repairs are ongoing.
-true.

- The Imperium of Man hasn't won the 13. Black Crusade, at least not for the time being. I know it's hard to grasp for some, but both the backgroundbook and the campaign results ( which were eloborated in the Background book, so the usual excused why The Imperium still wins: "But the Emprah's ships will nuke em from orbit/ send reinforcements/ a miracle happens" do not apply ) make it quite clear that the war will go on for decades and victory might not be possible for the Imperium of Man.
- Both the Word Bearers and the White Consuls assume that the Black Consuls have been wiped out. There might be remnants, but for all we know the chapter is extinct.
- Vraks isn't rebuilt. The entire system is under an inquisitorial interdict and nothing of the planet's once vast stockpiles of weapons remained.
- Those are but two tendrils of Leviathan and it is unclear if they can be stoped at all ( at least when it comes to Baal, which unlike the much more powerful Ultramar lacks the population for largescale warfare ). The bulk of Leviathan seems to be quite sucessful at ravaging the orkempire of Octarius.
- We do not know enough about the raid on Bakka to truly determine if repairs are already ongoing. The only pieces of fluff we have are from the 5. edition book and the Duke Sliscus entry in the Dark Eldar book.
All we know is that for the time being the shipyards of Bakka are not fully operationable/ heavily damaged.
- There are more than just feral Orks on Armageddon. Indeed the ork species seems to regard the place as some kind of valhalla and "visits" it in large numbers, as described in the 4. edition ork codex.

Brother Coa wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:
I fail to see what Horus' sucess or failure has to do with the Imperium's continued existence. Everyone knows that Horus winning would not have been a really happy event. This doesn't really make the Imperium (as it exists now) 'good'.

This.......is a question I really don't have the answer....
We must ask Eldar about this.....

Eldrad did, if this is still cannon, try to warn the Emperor about Horus. Didn't go down well.

And you still haven't adressed my other bit.

Ok, points proven KingDeath.


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Emperors Faithful wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:
I fail to see what Horus' sucess or failure has to do with the Imperium's continued existence. Everyone knows that Horus winning would not have been a really happy event. This doesn't really make the Imperium (as it exists now) 'good'.

This.......is a question I really don't have the answer....
We must ask Eldar about this.....

Eldrad did, if this is still cannon, try to warn the Emperor about Horus. Didn't go down well.

By meeting with another fallen Primarch....how smart indeed for such "enlightened" species... ( I still don't get it how he failed to see that coming? )

And you still haven't addressed my other bit.

Because you are right. Not their attention, but it was the result. And if the things didn't get that way...we all know what would happened. ( PURGE THE ALIEN!!!! ).

Brother Coa wrote:By meeting with another fallen Primarch....how smart indeed for such "enlightened" species... ( I still don't get it how he failed to see that coming? )

Give the poor xenos a break. At the time he was only just starting out with that 'prophecy and twisting fate' stuff after all.

Perhaps the alternative ways to meet were far worse, leading to that one being the best outcome?

Though he probably would have seen it not working anyway.

By meeting a Primarch, Flugrim had not yet fallen, nor did Eldrad know he would.

n0t_u wrote:Perhaps the alternative ways to meet were far worse, leading to that one being the best outcome?

Though he probably would have seen it not working anyway.

But maybe that's what he wanted all along MUWAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

Storm of Iron

Also Real Life (TM)

Frazzled wrote:
Also Real Life (TM)

QFT, every time we take down one evil another one emerge.

German Empire then Nazi Germany then USSR then Terrorism then America?

Brother Coa wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Also Real Life (TM)

QFT, every time we take down one evil another one emerge.

German Empire then Nazi Germany then USSR then Terrorism then America?

...?

I mean, that was a simplistic statement by itself. But the bits in bold are really whacked out.

They win. Just never anything huge without the good guys getting the massive moral victory

German Empire supported AustroHungary. They saw Serbs as "lonely peasants good only to be killed and their land conquered". So to my point of view German Empire = evil.

As for America, bringing to order to the world by choking the s*** out of it. People living there are good, country is beautiful and you can always succeed if you want. But their politicians are only concerned in ruling the world and telling other countries what to do, that's somewhat "evil" by common standards ( in fact, when I see America today I see many similarity's with former USSR when it comes to telling other countries what to do and to take shape in their politics ).

Brother Coa wrote:German Empire supported AustroHungary. They saw Serbs as "lonely peasants good only to be killed and their land conquered". So to my point of view German Empire = evil.

My Bias Sense is tingling.

I understand that you're Serbian, but you have to get that your teaching of history is bound to be skewed by your upbringing. Believe me I have a Bolivian friend and there is no love lost between you two.

Basically, I don't know enough about it to so much as touch it with a 10-foot pole.

As for America, bringing to order to the world by choking the s*** out of it. People living there are good, country is beautiful and you can always succeed if you want. But their politicians are only concerned in ruling the world and telling other countries what to do, that's somewhat "evil" by common standards ( in fact, when I see America today I see many similarity's with former USSR when it comes to telling other countries what to do and to take shape in their politics ).

Corrupt/Douchebag Politicians? Tick.
Skewed worldview that places them at the centre of the universe? Tick.

I could go on, but you've basically described any given country in the world.

Read a non-IoM codex and you'll get a few examples