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I remember that Stormtroopers came with targeters so they could measure before they shot. apparently they don't need them anymore.

Noisy_Marine wrote:There's no reason to disallow premeasuring.

And in the 41st millennium I'm sure space marines have equipment that tells them if they are in range or not before they fire their lascannon/bolter/whatever.


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woodbok wrote:Premeasuring would take away the skill of the game. Fantasy is like it, as is LOTR. Wouldn't want 40k going the same way.

There is skill involved in guessing ranges, but Fantasy did away with guess range weaponry. I wouldn't want 40k to go back to it, I'm not carpenter, and my guessing skills aren't that good.

As is, however, there is no skill in figuring out if enemy models are within 24" on a 4 foot 6x4 table.

It fits the dictionary definition of skill and it's certainly something that everyone person, with a small amount of effort and thought, can improve at, even those with only one eye. It took an evening, one game night, for me to go from worse then three to better then 1/4 inches when estimating distances, I'm a chemist not carpenter and I'm sure I can get better still if I wanted to.

I ask again, how does allowing pre-measuring level the playing field when it is level right now with respect to distance estimating? From where I'm sitting it would actually uneven the playing field.

At my FLGS, what separates the men from the boyz is the fact that the men can move their units accurately to exactly where they want them to be in terms of relative ranges.

With regards to pre-measuring, the issue is not that the distances are "wrong". I could also "optimally" move my unit, ensuring that I was the right range from EVERY SINGLE OTHER UNIT ON THE TABLE MUHAHAHAH!!

Understand? The skill here is not always whether you're out of range or not. I've played against the master of my FLGS, he moved his Plague Marines in the wierdest formation I've ever seen. It worked, and the squad stayed alive the entire game, despite me firing multiple deathwinds and salvos from a tac squad at it. Always in cover, and I could never see more than two of his models from any given unit.

That is skill.

despite me firing multiple deathwinds and salvos from a tac squad at it.

I think this has more to do with the survival of his plague marines than his formation. T5, FNP, 3+ is not small arms bait.

I was originally with the "pre-measuring takes away skill"-group, but after having tried FoW with their premeasuring ruleset, I have changed my opinion. Pre-measuring does not remove any skill if the rest of the game is well designed, it can actually add to skill-possibilities, and it takes away some arguments/possibilities to cheat.

I would like to see pre-measuring in 6th, but I hope the players will be given enough tactical options to allow pre-measuring to actually add to the game. I don't want pre-measuring just to help new players.

Now THAT'S a sensible argument!

There certainly is that angle to consider...

They may have been standard CSM, just painted green... I'm not sure now it was quite a while ago. I was there, it did have a lot to do with his playing style.

id like it for shooting, but wouldn't mind it anywhere else. except assault. i dont think it makes sense for assault. the unit is in a bloodlust to get to grips with the enemy. id like to see the random charge range like in fantasy get implemented.

No... not good!

Part of the tactical amazingness is the fact that the 12"/6"/D6 theme is prevalent throughout the game, in all aspects. Thus, because most of the distances are set, it makes the game tactically interesting because they all coincide.

Rakear wrote:Yes to pre measureing.

Why is simple, it evens the playing field. Ever play against a carpenter or similar tradesman? or say someone good at math or with a good eye for distances?

I know people who dont even need a tape measure to play.

It also removes any form of cheating the tape.. how many people know how long the distance from fore finger to palm is, or elbow to wrist?

There are way too many variables that make the current system unfair, Pre-measureing would level the playing field and make at least one aspect of the game fair.

HAHA thats funny right there since I am the carpenter you speak of. I remember 3rd with my old guard army and barrage weapons. I could land withen a queter inch all over the table... When I saw premesre in 8th fantasy I thought oh thats a cool idea. After playing 8th ED for a little bit I have come to realize that this is my least favorite ED of fantasy ever and have since then sold my WFB stuff.. I dont like the idea of premesure because you are just dumbing down the game... And even with premesuring you wouldnt remove forms of trickery or cheating. people will still exagerate a 6 inch movement and so forth.

Sabet wrote:id like it for shooting, but wouldn't mind it anywhere else. except assault. i dont think it makes sense for assault. the unit is in a bloodlust to get to grips with the enemy. id like to see the random charge range like in fantasy get implemented.

Worst Idea Ever... Nothing is more fusteratign then setting up the perfect assault you have planned and stratigized all game about then roll 1s and loseing the game over one dice roll. This was one of the most annoying things about 8th WFB for me.

OneMeanDuck wrote:Worst Idea Ever... Nothing is more fusteratign then setting up the perfect assault you have planned and stratigized all game about then roll 1s and loseing the game over one dice roll. This was one of the most annoying things about 8th WFB for me.

You could proffer that same objection to shooting or anything else being dice based, occasionally lady luck will piss on your planning, that's why we play dice games and not chess. It also better simulates your lack of direct control of units if they're slightly unreliable in various ways (Epic Armageddon did this better of course, but it did nearly everything better then any edition of 40k has ever managed).

I'll lay it out simple, I'm not interested in winning a game because I know 12 inches better then you (giggity), I want to win because my tactics and planning are better, cause its a war game not a tabletop measurement game.

Jack

Pre-measuring should be allowed. It is 40,000 years in the future and we don't have range finders built into our helmets? Fantasy has it. Why not 40k? I see no problem with it.

It should be an ability for anyone above Ballistic Skill 5.

Sam__theRelentless wrote:At my FLGS, what separates the men from the boyz is the fact that the men can move their units accurately to exactly where they want them to be in terms of relative ranges.

With regards to pre-measuring, the issue is not that the distances are "wrong". I could also "optimally" move my unit, ensuring that I was the right range from EVERY SINGLE OTHER UNIT ON THE TABLE MUHAHAHAH!!

Understand? The skill here is not always whether you're out of range or not. I've played against the master of my FLGS, he moved his Plague Marines in the wierdest formation I've ever seen. It worked, and the squad stayed alive the entire game, despite me firing multiple deathwinds and salvos from a tac squad at it. Always in cover, and I could never see more than two of his models from any given unit.

That is skill.

Sounds to me like he just made all his saves. Unless you happen to have a picture of this weird formation?


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Kurce wrote:Pre-measuring should be allowed. It is 40,000 years in the future and we don't have range finders built into our helmets? Fantasy has it. Why not 40k? I see no problem with it.

Actually marines do have range finders built into their helmets. And hell, we can do it in Flames of War, and that's WWII.

Noisy_Marine wrote:

Sounds to me like he just made all his saves. Unless you happen to have a picture of this weird formation?

Unfortunately, I don't it was back before I had anything more than AoBR....

Also, he made all his saves, it's just that they were cover saves because I could never see enough of his unit...
I'm not making a specific example, he just played them well because he could see range and he could see LoS before it happened. I would've liked to target-prioritize differently but he made it impossible.

That was my point.

I don't see why premeasuring should be allowed. Heck, you really don't even need it if you're playing on a GW table....all the sections are 2'x2', so you know if someone is one board away its roughly 24"...

The arguments against are;

It isn't needed to make the game fun, skillful and balanced.

There are better ways to achieve the effects of uncertainty about distances.

There are easy ways to work around it, so it's rather pointless.

It's an inducement to bad sportsmanship because it leads people to cheat.

It's a relatively uncommon game rule and harder to understand than allowing pre-measurement.

Agreed.

It's just that I don't like the idea of there being this sort of "obligation" you now have to check every distance available.

If you play a game in which distances actually matter, then you will have to check distances.

There are various games in which distances are abstracted.

No, the point is that I don't want to wait hours for my opponent to check exactly what is his tactically-best option by measuring every single distance to and from every single unit.

Distances always matter in 40k.

Sam__theRelentless wrote:No, the point is that I don't want to wait hours for my opponent to check exactly what is his tactically-best option by measuring every single distance to and from every single unit.

Distances always matter in 40k.

That's an opponent issue not a rules issue, some folks will dither over decisions, most won't.

Jack

The same kinds of people who will try cheat without pre-measuring?

Premeasuring and random charge ranges are a positive thing. Keep in mind we already premeasue movement. We don't premeasue shooting or assault. Assault needs a random element for both excitement and balance and guessing 6 inches is not it. Rolling for difficult terrain however does work so we know how random charges will be if implemented all the time

Well, look at it this way, we don't know what the "ideal" ruleset is yet, but there isn't actually one.

Different rulesets and game styles cater to different tastes, and while there are some examples of "worse" and "better" rulesets, the differing characteristics in 40k and WHFB are just that, differing.

IMHO, keeping these two apart with more than just different models is vital, especially to people who play multiple GW games. It's what adds flava and variety.

Yes, I know some aspects of 40k are in need of a polish, but that's just my $0.02

I usually let new players pre-measure if they need to, but by the time you've been playing for a while you really shouldn't need to.

Sothas wrote:Range finders are common in modern combat, why wouldn't they be built into a helm's HUD?

works for MEQ,tau,eladr and most advanced vehicles.what about orks,they rip the stuff out and don't have helmets.Nids dont have vehicles or tech in any way!daemons have it in the limited form of soul grinders

No premeasuring for all, instead make more units which can premeasure with their supreme technology, like flash gitz.

The reason for no premeasuring is so people do not measur e if they are in assault range,so instead of firing their squad's multimelta to a 30 strong boys mob and killing 1,they assault kill 10win combat and and kill another 7 due to Mob rule and No Retreat.

Personally I'd like it :3

Try fantasy and see what you think of it . I'm not so sure it'd work well for 40k...

Well, I'm guessing what you mean is that they do indeed have different game styles. GW's different games are not just the same rulesets with different fluff.

I say no to pre-measuring, but its mostly due to my perceptions about the game. I always view it as a commander moving his men into combat, telling them what to do, but still being separate. Like, I'm not the omniscient 3rd person purveyor of the field, capable of knowing everything. Thus I like the fact distances are not premeasured, because it helps intensify this feeling.
Maybe that's kind of stupid, but I find the lack of pre-measuring a cool thing, and I hope it doesn't change.