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tell your friend to just buy the other 3 boxes of GK TDA and have a full Draigo wing

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

insaniak wrote:There is no 'official' list of current legal codexes.

Actually there is, and it is the difference between needing the opponent's permission and not.

Every game you play will only happen if your opponent agrees to play. There is no magic list that forces a potential opponent to play you if your army is on it.

And no, there is no official list of currently valid codexes. There never has been, and unless GW changes their focus significantly, never will be. The only place you will see such a list is in house rules for specific venues or events.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

insaniak wrote:There is no 'official' list of current legal codexes.

Actually there is, and it is the difference between needing the opponent's permission and not.

Please tell me where this official list is, GM. I would actually like to see this official list of which you speak.

@spiralingcadaver: It's generally accepted that DH was replaced by the GK codex, since only the GK is in print and has units from DH. You'd be hard pressed to find a GT or other GW tournament that would let you play with DH. That's probably the best measurement for telling if something has been replaced.

I would like to see an official codex list for GW tournaments, though.

Luckily for me, as far as I'm aware, No they can't be used.

So this is ok:



but GK + SM isn't?

If it's a friendly It's fine. If its blatant cheesey then no!

It is generally by event. Here was this years list from Throne of Skulls.

Note: Grey Knights Yes, Daemonhunters No. I would expect next years to be Sisters of Battle Yes, Witch Hunters No.

Homer

Asherian Command wrote:My chapter has created a group that act like the grey knights and look like them but they are not grey knights.

So they picked up spears and painted their army grey?

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Officially, they are not allowed in a Space Marine army. That being said, if you are not in a tournament setting, why not? Especially if one of you is playing Chaos or Daemons, the Grey Knights would be called to help out!

And then the other SM would be killed or mind wiped I believe, so that would be a reason WHY NOT to include them.

There actually is an Apocalypse Force that Space Marines get called Grey Knights Redeemer Force. If up against a chaos player and there are no chaos models on the board, the chaos player immediately gets control of the Redeemer Force, as they begin the purification of those who witnessed the warp breach.

Phototoxin wrote:So this is ok:



but GK + SM isn't?

What? The Necron-BA thing is a bit of fluff. It has nothing to do with using them in a game.

Ok, so I got a similar situation. My friend has started IG, and wants to use them as Tallarns or something, which had specific rules in the last IG codex. He wants to use these rules, but wants to simply add them to the current one.

So, what I said was that I don't allow him to mix old Codex with nerw, so if he wants to use rules from a codex that permits these rules, but no Vendettas, he has to use either one or the other.

I take it I am within my right to do this?

Deadshot wrote:I take it I am within my right to do this?

It's definately 1 codex per army. No mix-and-matching. If he wants to merge the 2 codexes, he can. But, it would only be a fandex, and not at all legal. Of course, you're free to play him if you so choose.


Also, most players view a new codex release as completely invalidating any older codexes, so you're well within your rights to refuse to play if he wants to use the 4th ed IG codex.

I am fine with him using the old one, just not if he decides that he wants to use something from the new one.. It would be the same for any army. I would allow the use of 4th ed Nids, but then they would be able to take most of their units.

You're within your 'right' to say that you'll only play him if he uses only Ogryns, and plays in a gingham dress and pigtails while singing 'Over the Rainbow' continuously.

He's, similarly, within his 'rights' to not play you under those conditions.

What rules are usable is ultimately down to what you and your opponent want to do. If you both agree that using the old codex or the new one is the way to go, then that's the way to play it. If you want to sit down together and hash out a mix of both codexes that you both think is fair, then that's the way to play it.

The game is certainly designed for each codex to be stand-alone, but if the two of you are happy to make a hybrid list, that's up to you.

ascended_mike wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:My chapter has created a group that act like the grey knights and look like them but they are not grey knights.

So they picked up spears and painted their army grey?

More like they are selected and put through the worst types of tests and they guard the Storm Crusaders Citadel while they are away.

All you have to do is make up a good. Reason some chapters have squads that act like Grey Knights and have the same equipment but aren't secret and don't kill other innocents.

kronk wrote:Please tell me where this official list is, GM. I would actually like to see this official list of which you speak.

I's guess the list of armies for sale at the GW website tells you a few things about which armies are "official". DH and WH both have been removed.

Not that I'd have a problem if my IG/DH mixing friend wished to use the old rules, as long as he doesn't try to weasle in the new GK codex somehow. They're good enough without cheap IG meatshields.

Spetulhu wrote:I's guess the list of armies for sale at the GW website tells you a few things about which armies are "official". DH and WH both have been removed.

Not being currently sold doesn't make a codex unusable.

insaniak wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:I's guess the list of armies for sale at the GW website tells you a few things about which armies are "official". DH and WH both have been removed.

Not being currently sold doesn't make a codex unusable.

You didn't ask for a list of 'useable' codexes, you asked for the list of 'official' codexes.

Heck, I could still use my 2nd ed codexes, they're 'useable'.

Both the GW website list of availble armies and codexes, and the Throne of Skulls list from GW are about as 'official' as it gets.

And yes, opponent permission, everything's possible, if your opponent agrees, TO/tournament says, yadda yadda, applies.

Cruentus wrote:You didn't ask for a list of 'useable' codexes, you asked for the list of 'official' codexes.

I didn't ask for anything. I pointed out that there is no list of official codexes.

Heck, I could still use my 2nd ed codexes, they're 'useable'.

Given that they were written for a very different ruleset, that would take some tweaking. But you wouldn't be the first to do so.

Both the GW website list of availble armies and codexes, and the Throne of Skulls list from GW are about as 'official' as it gets.

The Throne of Skulls rules are applicable for that specific event. Nothing more.
And the current list of available codexes is just a list of what is currently available. Both the DH and WH codexes were removed from sale some time before the GK codex came out. Are you suggesting that they were unusable from that point onwards?

For that matter, pretty much every codex is removed from sale several months (at least) before a new version is released. So going by what is currently available is ultimately pretty meaningless. All it tells you is what GW are currently selling.

Both the GW website list of availble armies and codexes, and the Throne of Skulls list from GW are about as 'official' as it gets.

Two questions then. First of all, where does GW say that those are the only official codices? And second, where does that leave Necrons which no longer have a codex for sale but which I'm assuming are permitted in the Throne of Skulls tournament?

insaniak wrote:
Unless, of course, he's actually still using Codex: Daemon Hunters...

If that's the case, you would have to discuss amongst your gaming group whether to continue to allow that, or 'upgrade' to Codex: Grey Knights.

The OP said it was a Grey Knight strike squad, so he was definitely talking about C:GK, since there were no GK strike squads in CH.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just noticed that when I type a ":" followed by a "D", I end up with an orkmoticon...

Come on!

If you really truly believe Daemonhunters is a legitimate/tourney legal codex, then you'd probably be too brain dead to find the dakkadakka website.

We all know GK replaced DH... but if you want to split hairs, cloud the truth, and use legalize to justify DH as somehow being a current codex, go right ahead... silly people

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440345a&rootCatGameStyle=books Here are the current 'dexes. We all know this... rule lawyer all you want... but if your codex isn't here and one is that encompasses a vast majority of the units and characters in your army... say bye bye to your old dex.

Lobukia wrote:If you really truly believe Daemonhunters is a legitimate/tourney legal codex, then you'd probably be too brain dead to find the dakkadakka website.

You're confusing two different issues here.

Nobody is saying that Codex: DH is tournie legal. As with any other tournament issue, that would depend entirely on the tournament. I would very strongly suspect that very few 5th edition tournaments would still allow it.

That doesn't make it not a 'legitimate' codex. The contents of the codex are still exactly the same as they were before Codex: GK was released. If people choose to continue using it, they're not committing some great crime against the gods of gaming. Whether or not it is still a usable codex is entirely up to the players involved.

We all know GK replaced DH... but if you want to split hairs, cloud the truth, and use legalize to justify DH as somehow being a current codex, go right ahead... silly people

You're trying to make this into a much bigger issue than it really is. When the last Space Marines codex was released, were people suddenly forbidden from that day forward from using the previous codex? Some people will upgrade straight away. Some will take a few months to pick up the new codex. Some never will. Using the old codex in the meantime hurts nobody.

This isn't a matter of using 'legalese' to try to justify something shady. It's a matter of whether or not you choose to keep using a particular book of rules for toy soldiers after a newer book has been released.

@insaniak... oh I get that any two players can use RT rules if they want. I just couldn't believe that people were playing the "where does it say I can't!?!" card as if they could use that strain of logic to force fellow gamers to accept their DH codex instead of the GK one.

Heck, break out Space Hulk rules for your faction if you want... just don't try to convince me that its Warhammer 40k 5th edition while we're playing a game.

@Lobukia I don't see Sisters of Battles at the link, so I can use Witch Hunters until a new codex comes out?

Lobukia wrote:@insaniak... oh I get that any two players can use RT rules if they want. I just couldn't believe that people were playing the "where does it say I can't!?!" card as if they could use that strain of logic to force fellow gamers to accept their DH codex instead of the GK one.

I don't think anyone was expecting to 'force' an opponent to do anything. The point being made is simply that there is nothing that says that the codex is no longer usable (as far as I can recall, GW have only ever officially listed two codexes as no longer being 'legal' for use - Codex: Craftworld Eldar and Codex: Assassins), and since the codex was previously FAQd to bring it in line with 5th edition rules, it's no less 'legal' now than it was before Codex: Grey Knights was released.

Yes, Codex: GK is clearly supposed to be the 'revised' Codex: DH. But while using the most recent rules is the general convention, it is not actually required by the laws of the universe. If you want to continue using Codex: DH, or the 4th edition Codex: Space Marines with the 5th edition updates, or the Lost and the Damned list from Codex: Eye of Terror, go for it. It's just a game.

insaniak wrote:Nobody is saying that Codex: DH is tournie legal.

Actually they are, which is how this whole debate started.

Not every conversation is automatically about what is allowed in a friendly environment, in fact such conversations are silly; why argue about something completely arbitrary? Instead we discuss it in the context of where set rules actually do exist, at a tournament or the LSG for pick-up games for instance. This is also the context in which the issue was started.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

insaniak wrote:Nobody is saying that Codex: DH is tournie legal.

Actually they are, which is how this whole debate started.

There is not a single post in this thread that states that the codex is tournament legal. The only posts that mention using it in tournaments state (correctly) that it would depend on the specific tournament rules.

There is no such thing as 'tournament legal' outside of the rules for a specific tournament. There is no blanket set of tournament rules that covers every tournament.

So, in the tournament scene, it's up to the TO, in which case any debate here is pointless.

In a friendly game, it's up to the players involved, in which case any debate here is pointless.

So....

Why 2 pages, why?

I want to see how many pages we can argue about a clearly replaced codex. Go!