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Uhlan wrote:As far as being tuff, didn't the Lion come close to getting his butt handed to him by Curze in a one on one fight? I know both were beaten down to what might be considered a draw, but if you read the text, Curze appears to have gotten the better of the fight.

Neither was capable of fighting at the end.

And Angron's stats are perfectly fine for a game of 40k. The key to the Primarch's toughness wasn't that they were unhurtable, it was that they were unkillable unless they died immediately. They recovered from anything that didn't kill them outright.

Horus caused the imperium to split apart, albheit with help of chaos but stil... He killed another primarch and mortally wounded the emperor. Yeh thats what I call power.

Uhlan wrote:As far as being tuff, didn't the Lion come close to getting his butt handed to him by Curze in a one on one fight? I know both were beaten down to what might be considered a draw, but if you read the text, Curze appears to have gotten the better of the fight.

I wouldn't say 'butt handed to him', as you said, I'd consider it a draw.
IIRC Lion was clearly the better swordsman and martially skilled, so when Curze 'played' dirty (being logical and resourceful really), Curze got the upper hand. Although Curze had the upper hand before some DA's intervened, it was a close contest rather than 'butt handed to him' I'd say...

Void__Dragon wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Very old source IIRC. Would probably be considered by many to be outdated/void.

Can you recall the specific source, or the context? Aka was it a Space Wolf legend or a factual account?

It's not my source, you'd have to ask Darkness. As I said though, I'd consider it far too old to be relevant.

chaoslooksgood wrote:Horus caused the imperium to split apart, albheit with help of chaos but stil... He killed another primarch and mortally wounded the emperor. Yeh thats what I call power.

I'd say 'with the help of Chaos' to be the optimum word there; he wasn't a spectacularly powerful primarch otherwise IMHO. Also note that Sanguinius was pretty tired by that point and it's most likely neither Sang' or the Big E put that much effort in as they tried to reason with Horus, initially at least.

I know at one time (don't know if it was recanted) The Lion was the most brilliant Primarch tactically, tied only with Horas. The one thing that held him back was the fact that he had zero people skills, which tends to happen when you are raised by trees

Pretty sure that's from one of the DA HH books, it's at least mentioned there. Him and Luthor were a symbol of the sum of the parts being superior.

I did always enjoy that dynamic; Luthor knew how to organize people and the Lion knew how to organize battles. Together they where darn-near unstoppable.

If the Black Library books are canon then he's the most ignorant and power craving loyal primarch.

As I remember he helped attack a forge world that was controlled by Horus's traitors, discovering some titans that Horus had secretly ordered the traitor Forge leader to create a hundred years before that were never needed because the war he wanted them for had ended. Lion then gave these to another primarch that had come to aid him only it turned out that he would become a traitor primarch and took them to assist Horus. This was kept secret of course as Lion said to this Primarch if you have these then can you vote for me and persuade the other primarchs to when Horus ineviatablly dies and we need a new warmaster. This traitor primarch obviously said he'd agree, and Lion never bothered to try and defeat Horus, his force was seriously dimished (he only brought a single company anyway to that forge world) the others were fighting elsewhere so he went back to them, claiming that he didn't have enough people to help attack Horus as the other primarchs had been commanded to do, as he himself was heroically fighting to bring some world where his main force was to comply. He used this as well as an excuse to say he was the only primarch still crusading to free worlds and bring them to the Imperium, further enhancing his prospects. Fortunately that primarch turned to chaos so he failed. This was in the time, I can't remember the name when the imperium was discovering lost worlds and primarchs.

I've always enjoyed the bit in the Dark Angels novel where the Fallen says that the reason the Lion never made it to Terra, is that he was waiting to see who won!

Lobukia wrote:I've always enjoyed the bit in the Dark Angels novel where the Fallen says that the reason the Lion never made it to Terra, is that he was waiting to see who won!

I've heard this said before, where is this implied/stated?

Void__Dragon wrote:

Lobukia wrote:I've always enjoyed the bit in the Dark Angels novel where the Fallen says that the reason the Lion never made it to Terra, is that he was waiting to see who won!

I've heard this said before, where is this implied/stated?

Not implied at all... stated by someone who was there in Angels of Darkness by Gav Thorpe

I should point out that this is the plot climax of one of the best BL novels ever!

However, since the book is almost 8 years old, I can't the information as being too shocking or new to any DA fan

Lobukia wrote:I've always enjoyed the bit in the Dark Angels novel where the Fallen says that the reason the Lion never made it to Terra, is that he was waiting to see who won!

Yes, and he also had this wonderful bridge for sale...

DarknessEternal wrote:

Obrek wrote:
OT
Wow 4+ invuln and T6 is pretty weak on a Daemon Prince Primarch if you ask me, but 2-12 Bloodthirsters as a retinue? That's awesome.
/OT

It was just the nail in the coffin of the super-god-primarch fanboys.

I dunno I really like it. It fits well into the current 40k fluff to table top rules conversion. To be fair, he IS better than any bloodthirster you could field but unfortunately extremely overcosted.
I mean seriously, just a master crafted blade? Really? Everyone knows that in 5e, rerolling to hit, wound and armor penetration is the bare minimum for MCs.

terranarc wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Obrek wrote:
OT
Wow 4+ invuln and T6 is pretty weak on a Daemon Prince Primarch if you ask me, but 2-12 Bloodthirsters as a retinue? That's awesome.
/OT

It was just the nail in the coffin of the super-god-primarch fanboys.

I dunno I really like it. It fits well into the current 40k fluff to table top rules conversion. To be fair, he IS better than any bloodthirster you could field but unfortunately extremely overcosted.
I mean seriously, just a master crafted blade? Really? Everyone knows that in 5e, rerolling to hit, wound and armor penetration is the bare minimum for MCs.

I'd say he's pretty Damn good a little underpowered but honestly only Swarmlord, draigo and a few other are as strong as him. I think his main selling point is the god damn retinue of bloodthristers, I don't care how OP Draigo is against 12 Blood thirsters not everyone is gonna get a piece.

FlammingGaunt wrote: I think his main selling point is the god damn retinue of bloodthristers, I don't care how OP Draigo is against 12 Blood thirsters not everyone is gonna get a piece.

This whole thread I had read Bloodthirster as Bloodletter , thinking "So what?" It has just dawned on me that he was toting Greater Daemons of Khorne as a Retinue.


We need to change the Thread's Title. Aggron+12 Bloodthirsters. Most powerful Deathstar unit?

back on topic: I'd be willing to bet that the Lion was not the most powerful. They say "The Emperor Protects" for a reason.

Alpharius is obviously the most powerful.

Alpharius is the most influential, not the most powerful. A normal human almost beat him in a sword fight (though this mightn't have been him).

Some of the contenders for power in my book would be:

Fulgrim-daemon, has killed (or as good as) two primarchs.
Magnus has a lascannon to represent his eye laser.
Angron for obvious reasons.

I would have to say yes....the Lion is the best primarch.....to a DA player.

@Durza- Didn't see them writing the whole space marine rules for engagement after him....unless Guilliman's body is really Alpharius infiltrating.

I interpret fluff about the H.H. as being like the legends we have today about supposed ancient heroes like Hercules... just take them as myths based on some degree of fact (not that Hercules is... I honestly have no idea)

Soladrin wrote:Alpharius is obviously the most powerful.

For some reason I get the feeling he's the weakest.

Deathshead420 wrote:@Durza- Didn't see them writing the whole space marine rules for engagement after him....unless Guilliman's body is really Alpharius infiltrating.

Yet he was meant to change the course of the Heresy, and may have done. He's turned entire chapters of Marines to Chaos with his plans, and God-Emperor only knows what his endgame is.

Durza wrote:Alpharius is the most influential, not the most powerful. A normal human almost beat him in a sword fight (though this mightn't have been him).

Some of the contenders for power in my book would be:

Fulgrim-daemon, has killed (or as good as) two primarchs.
Magnus has a lascannon to represent his eye laser.
Angron for obvious reasons.

I disagree with Angron as a choice strength and power aren't the same. Angron would never threaten the imperium as a whole as he squanders his troops like the most idiotic of imperial guard commanders (ramming vast numbers at the enemy screaming until everyone is dead), he has no political abillity other than brute intimidation and he also fails to instil any real loyalty in his subordinates because of their nature as mindless killers.

As for Chuck Draigo I prefer to ignore almost all of his fluff on an accout of it being uber-lame, I consider keeping a primarch still long enough to carve anything on them without killing them ridiculous, i consider him a bit of a bad joke (aren't all GWs jokes pretty bad these days?) on GWs part.

I too agree with Trog... it's best to just pretend that neither Draigo nor Ward exist...

Or just Ward. It's fun to kill Draigo.

All the cool kids will tell you to hate on Draigo. And also to listen to bands you've never heard of, wear glasses with no lenses, and take stupid pictures of yourselves.

DarknessEternal wrote:All the cool kids will tell you to hate on Draigo.

There is no such thing as a cool nerd.

Saying that on a 40k forum makes me think your name is very fitting, 'Pie.

It's true nevertheless...

DarknessEternal wrote:All the cool kids will tell you to hate on Draigo. And also to listen to bands you've never heard of, wear glasses with no lenses, and take stupid pictures of yourselves.

I don't hate him, just his fluff. Though with fluff that ridiculous, I can't help but snigger a little inside when he dies.

Durza wrote:
I don't hate him, just his fluff.

I don't hate you, I just hate you? This makes me confused.

Basically, I don't mind his stats or abilities. I wouldn't even mind the fluff if it was something like 'it took twenty of the Grey Knights' finest to take down Mortarion, and of those, Draigo was the only one left standing. In vengeance, he carved the name of the old master into the daemon primarch's heart before banishing him.' But alone? Consider the amount of rotten flesh he would have had to cut through.

Durza wrote: I wouldn't even mind the fluff if it was something like 'it took twenty of the Grey Knights' finest to take down Mortarion, and of those, Draigo was the only one left standing. In vengeance, he carved the name of the old master into the daemon primarch's heart before banishing him.' But alone?

There's exactly one third of a sentence devoted to this whole encounter.

It doesn't mention he was alone or with a hundred guys. In fact, it's only 13 words.

You, and the rest of the internet, added the other "details".