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So either he's a superhero for beating a daemon primarch, or he's a jerk for taking credit for beating a daemon primarch...

He(Draigo) is the face of the Grey Knights, he has to be the American Badass.

Just like Ghazzy, O'Shaserra(and O'Shovah to a lesser extent), Calgar (and his short lived Home Improvement Tv show), Vect, Eldrad, Abbadon, Lucius, Kharn, Thyphus, Ahriman, The Swarmlord, Mephiston( Dante may be the chapter Master, but Mephiston is the face of the Blood Angels IMO), Canis Wolfborn (hands down the best known Space Pup other than Russ) and CREEEEEED.

I forgot the names of the DA and BT Special Characters, but you get the point. Everyone I named (maybe not O'Shovah in the scheme of everyone else, but in the Tau Empire, him leaving is a big event) has crazy ass fluff to show how much they rock.

Nothing to that degree though. Abaddon led a strike team to retrieve Horus' body. He didn't then decide to go into the Imperial Palace and graffiti the Throne

I am actually surprised that Leman Russ and Guilliman have not been mentioned yet. Personally I would go with Dorn and Vulkan. It is said that Dorn was a tactical genius, had one of the best minds for defense and sieges. Horus even said that if the IF were defending a fortress, and his Luna Wolves attacked it, it would become a stale-mate.
As far as I know, little is known about Vulkan, so I can not speak of him much. But...the Imperial Fists and Salamanders are my favorite chapter/legions, so my opinion is more that likely biased.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:He(Draigo) is the face of the Grey Knights, he has to be the American Badass.

Just like Ghazzy, O'Shaserra(and O'Shovah to a lesser extent), Calgar (and his short lived Home Improvement Tv show), Vect, Eldrad, Abbadon, Lucius, Kharn, Thyphus, Ahriman, The Swarmlord, Mephiston( Dante may be the chapter Master, but Mephiston is the face of the Blood Angels IMO), Canis Wolfborn (hands down the best known Space Pup other than Russ) and CREEEEEED.

I forgot the names of the DA and BT Special Characters, but you get the point. Everyone I named (maybe not O'Shovah in the scheme of everyone else, but in the Tau Empire, him leaving is a big event) has crazy ass fluff to show how much they rock.

I disagree with Mephy being the face of BA. He is one of the strongest units in the codex, but hardly ever mentioned in fluff. Dante is definitely mentioned more when he steps up to a battle field even Calgar steps aside to give him command. IMO his fluff is much better than Mephiston.

DarknessEternal wrote:
It doesn't mention he was alone or with a hundred guys. In fact, it's only 13 words.

Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through the Motarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Greonitan's name on the Daemons vile heart."

It at the very least highly suggests that Draigo single-handedly took down Mortarion after the previous Grandmaster is killed.

The Lion was said to be the best tactician of all the Primarchs. It has also been said that he was an awesome swordsman as well. I dont think he was truly the most "powerful" of the Primarchs but I do believe he was definitely the tactical genious of the Primarchs.

I'd say Guilliman or Alpharius were better tacticians.

Durza wrote:I'd say Guilliman or Alpharius were better tacticians.

Not in a warzone, being sneaky sneaky definitely, but the lion was a better tactician. Too bad he wasn't much of a people person.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Durza wrote: I wouldn't even mind the fluff if it was something like 'it took twenty of the Grey Knights' finest to take down Mortarion, and of those, Draigo was the only one left standing. In vengeance, he carved the name of the old master into the daemon primarch's heart before banishing him.' But alone?

There's exactly one third of a sentence devoted to this whole encounter.

It doesn't mention he was alone or with a hundred guys. In fact, it's only 13 words.

You, and the rest of the internet, added the other "details".

IIRC it says, quite clearly, "alone and unaided".

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

FlammingGaunt wrote: I think his main selling point is the god damn retinue of bloodthristers, I don't care how OP Draigo is against 12 Blood thirsters not everyone is gonna get a piece.

This whole thread I had read Bloodthirster as Bloodletter , thinking "So what?" It has just dawned on me that he was toting Greater Daemons of Khorne as a Retinue.


We need to change the Thread's Title. Aggron+12 Bloodthirsters. Most powerful Deathstar unit?

back on topic: I'd be willing to bet that the Lion was not the most powerful. They say "The Emperor Protects" for a reason.

I tested out Draigo vs Angron,and even passing HH,and Santified flame,and allowing him to S.Bolter,and charging,Draigo was slaughtered by Angron,9/10.He won 1 battle 1v1,2 with 2 Bloodthirsters.Once it hit 3,he had no chance,so I put a Dreadknight in there.Once there were 12,it took about 50 paladins,20 purifiers,30ish Purgators laying down support Psilincer and Psycannon fire, and Draigo,and 3 Dreadknights,and a pair of Libbies,and a pair of SR,to finally bring the 13 monsters down.Even the 5/10 times the GK won,they were pulverised.

Deadshot wrote:

I tested out Draigo vs Angron,and even passing HH,and Santified flame,and allowing him to S.Bolter,and charging,Draigo was slaughtered by Angron,9/10.He won 1 battle 1v1,2 with 2 Bloodthirsters.Once it hit 3,he had no chance,so I put a Dreadknight in there.Once there were 12,it took about 50 paladins,20 purifiers,30ish Purgators laying down support Psilincer and Psycannon fire, and Draigo,and 3 Dreadknights,and a pair of Libbies,and a pair of SR,to finally bring the 13 monsters down.Even the 5/10 times the GK won,they were pulverised.

That makes me smile.

Most powerful? Horus. If Sanguinius had not battled him and created a chink in his armor, the Emperor would have fallen.

Brother Taurinus wrote:Most powerful? Horus. If Sanguinius had not battled him and created a chink in his armor, the Emperor would have fallen.

Only guesswork.

Its the whole reason why the 40k fluff works, because its deliberately ambiguous and contradictory so you can always find a reason to pick your army of choice.

I read that the emperor could easily have crushed Horus, but he didn't fight because he wasn't willing to bring his strength to bear against Horus. Only after he was wounded did he finally accept he had to kill his son, and at that point he blasted him out of existence.

As the point seems to be, YMMV. But considering the big E created pretty much everything including all the primarchs, I'd say he could knack Horus easy if he put his mind to it. And he did, why is why Horus doesn't exist anymore.

mattyrm wrote: But considering the big E created pretty much everything including all the primarchs, I'd say he could knack Horus easy if he put his mind to it. And he did, why is why Horus doesn't exist anymore.

The Primarchs were created with a measure of the Emperor's abilty,same way the Astartes were created,with the measure of the primarch.Horus+Chaos,would have been equal or just weaker than the big E.Like you have said,if he had put his mind to it,Horus wouldn't have liveed long enough to realise the big sword sticking out of him.

mattyrm wrote: I read that the emperor could easily have crushed Horus

Every source I can recall concerning their fight states that besting Horus would require nothing less than the Emperor's full power.

And of course Horus when he fought the Emperor was stronger than the other Primarchs, he was amped by all four Chaos Gods at the time.

Then it would be a simple enough task to go full power.He went at half speed because he wanted to Horus to do a Darth-Vader-Throws-Darth-Sidious-AKA-The Star Wars Emperor-down-the-Death-Star thing.When he realised he couldn't do this,he went,"Alright,to hell with this!",and killed him.

If the Emperor had have wanted him dead from the start,then Sanguinius wouldn't have died,because the Emperor would have just obliterated him there and then

Deadshot wrote:Then it would be a simple enough task to go full power.He went at half speed because he wanted to Horus to do a Darth-Vader-Throws-Darth-Sidious-AKA-The Star Wars Emperor-down-the-Death-Star thing.When he realised he couldn't do this,he went,"Alright,to hell with this!",and killed him.

I don't think it was as simple as that. Not even close. The Emperor didn't want to kill Horus, but I doubt if he was that powerful he would have let Horus rip his arm off and break his back. I'd have thought that he'd be able to just throw off all his attacks. Only until he saw that Horus was beyond redeeming did he use the full extent of his powers and that was in a single attack that could well have spent all his remaining strength. There's simply too little information too discuss anything other than the bare facts.

If the Emperor had have wanted him dead from the start,then Sanguinius wouldn't have died,because the Emperor would have just obliterated him there and then

He didn't want him dead, he thought Horus could be saved.
They were separated when deepstriking into the Vengeful Spirit, the Emperor arrived after Sanguinus was killed. Remember, the Emperor was busy maintaining the shield on the Webway portal. Malcador had to take over from him when he left to confront the Warmaster.

Exactly.He didn't want him dead.If he did,then Horus wouldn't have barely touched him.Watch Star Wars Episode 6,the fight between Luke and Vader.Luke had ample oportunities to end Vader,but didn't because he wqanted to believe that his dad could redeem himself.The Emperor takes the place of Luke,and Vader is Horus.The difference is that Horus doesn't redeem himself.

iproxtaco wrote:
I don't think it was as simple as that. Not even close. The Emperor didn't want to kill Horus, but I doubt if he was that powerful he would have let Horus rip his arm off and break his back. I'd have thought that he'd be able to just throw off all his attacks. Only until he saw that Horus was beyond redeeming did he use the full extent of his powers and that was in a single attack that could well have spent all his remaining strength. There's simply too little information too discuss anything other than the bare facts.

Well when put like that I don't think that Horus was truely a match for the big E psychicly the mere fact that the Emperor was fighting Horus physically at all suggests he wasn't using his full power. He could have just stood back and nuked him from a distance. Although I consider the Emperor to be pretty hard I imagine him to be only just on a physical par with a primarch, AFAIK the Emperor doesn't have all the extra organs and augmentations of a primarch he is just simply an extroadinarily powerful psyker and merely a supremely superb specimen of humanity physically.

Ugly Green Trog wrote:Well when put like that I don't think that Horus was truely a match for the big E psychicly the mere fact that the Emperor was fighting Horus physically at all suggests he wasn't using his full power. He could have just stood back and nuked him from a distance. Although I consider the Emperor to be pretty hard I imagine him to be only just on a physical par with a primarch, AFAIK the Emperor doesn't have all the extra organs and augmentations of a primarch he is just simply an extroadinarily powerful psyker and merely a supremely superb specimen of humanity physically.

The Emperor and Horus were fighting on both the Material and Immaterial realms, aka, physically and psychically.

Deadshot wrote:Exactly.He didn't want him dead.If he did,then Horus wouldn't have barely touched him.Watch Star Wars Episode 6,the fight between Luke and Vader.Luke had ample oportunities to end Vader,but didn't because he wqanted to believe that his dad could redeem himself.The Emperor takes the place of Luke,and Vader is Horus.The difference is that Horus doesn't redeem himself.

Did you read my first point at all? If the Emperor was supposedly so magnificent and powerful as to be able to obliterate Horus in an eye blink, why did he allow Horus to nearly kill him? Surely he should have been able to shrug off these attacks. That's a massive hole in your reasoning.
Also, Horus did feel remorse after the Emperor ended him, but he would have turned again.

Horus allegedly felt remorse before the Emperor ended him, a small part in him forcing him to hesitate from killing the Emperor.

iproxtaco wrote: If the Emperor was supposedly so magnificent and powerful as to be able to obliterate Horus in an eye blink, why did he allow Horus to nearly kill him?

The reason the Big man let Horus go about(he certainly didn't let Horus hurt him),was that ther Emperor didn't want to kill him,so didn't use all of his power from the start.He thought that Horus was redeemable,but then realised,so obliterated him.If had realised from the start then he would have just blown him apart there and then.

iproxtaco wrote:Also, Horus did feel remorse after the Emperor ended him, but he would have turned again.

that doesn't redeem him.Vader killed Sidious,redemption.Horus felt sorry for him,and hesitated,but the Big E took advantage and slayed him.Not rerdeemed.

If the gap between them were that huge, the Emperor could have just nonlethally incapacitated Horus, or deflected all his attacks.

As it turns out, he could not.

Deadshot wrote:

iproxtaco wrote: If the Emperor was supposedly so magnificent and powerful as to be able to obliterate Horus in an eye blink, why did he allow Horus to nearly kill him?

The reason the Big man let Horus go about(he certainly didn't let Horus hurt him),was that ther Emperor didn't want to kill him,so didn't use all of his power from the start.He thought that Horus was redeemable,but then realised,so obliterated him.If had realised from the start then he would have just blown him apart there and then.

Yeah, you're not really countering my point. If the Emperor is as powerful as you think, why did he let Horus rip his arm off, take out one of his eyes and then break his back over his knee? Answer : He isn't as powerful as you think. The Emperor was not just able to go pew pew and kill Horus then and there.

iproxtaco wrote:Also, Horus did feel remorse after the Emperor ended him, but he would have turned again.

that doesn't redeem him.Vader killed Sidious,redemption.Horus felt sorry for him,and hesitated,but the Big E took advantage and slayed him.Not rerdeemed.

Never said it redeemed him. After the Emperor's final attack Horus came to his senses and felt remorse, but the Emperor knew he would turn again.

iproxtaco wrote:

Deadshot wrote:

iproxtaco wrote: If the Emperor was supposedly so magnificent and powerful as to be able to obliterate Horus in an eye blink, why did he allow Horus to nearly kill him?

The reason the Big man let Horus go about(he certainly didn't let Horus hurt him),was that ther Emperor didn't want to kill him,so didn't use all of his power from the start.He thought that Horus was redeemable,but then realised,so obliterated him.If had realised from the start then he would have just blown him apart there and then.

Yeah, you're not really countering my point. If the Emperor is as powerful as you think, why did he let Horus rip his arm off, take out one of his eyes and then break his back over his knee? Answer : He isn't as powerful as you think. The Emperor was not just able to go pew pew and kill Horus then and there.

A father trying to kill his own son is insane dude. No sane father would want to use their full strength on their son, face it he didn't want to actually kill him.
Face it Horus was the Emperor's closet son. He loved the little brat. but he couldn't bring himself to kill him. How you would you feel if you had to kill your own son? Its a question that parents would never answer. They wouldn't they would try and protect them.

iproxtaco wrote:Also, Horus did feel remorse after the Emperor ended him, but he would have turned again.

that doesn't redeem him.Vader killed Sidious,redemption.Horus felt sorry for him,and hesitated,but the Big E took advantage and slayed him.Not rerdeemed.

Never said it redeemed him. After the Emperor's final attack Horus came to his senses and felt remorse, but the Emperor knew he would turn again.

Asherian Command wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Deadshot wrote:

iproxtaco wrote: If the Emperor was supposedly so magnificent and powerful as to be able to obliterate Horus in an eye blink, why did he allow Horus to nearly kill him?

The reason the Big man let Horus go about(he certainly didn't let Horus hurt him),was that ther Emperor didn't want to kill him,so didn't use all of his power from the start.He thought that Horus was redeemable,but then realised,so obliterated him.If had realised from the start then he would have just blown him apart there and then.

Yeah, you're not really countering my point. If the Emperor is as powerful as you think, why did he let Horus rip his arm off, take out one of his eyes and then break his back over his knee? Answer : He isn't as powerful as you think. The Emperor was not just able to go pew pew and kill Horus then and there.

A father trying to kill his own son is insane dude. No sane father would want to use their full strength on their son, face it he didn't want to actually kill him.
Face it Horus was the Emperor's closet son. He loved the little brat. but he couldn't bring himself to kill him. How you would you feel if you had to kill your own son? Its a question that parents would never answer. They wouldn't they would try and protect them.

Nice of you to come along and repeat what Deadshot has said and not actually counter my point. I'm well aware that the Emperor didn't want to kill Horus, but to say that the Emperor could have obliterated him in an instant but held back his true power is wrong, else the Emperor would have defended against the attacks of his son and not allowed himself to be mortally wounded. I also don't think their relationship was anywhere near the generic 'father and son' analogy. The Emperor was the Emperor, a powerful psyker, almost a God, towering above mortal humans in size and strength. Horus was likewise far removed from humanity.

iproxtaco wrote:Also, Horus did feel remorse after the Emperor ended him, but he would have turned again.

that doesn't redeem him.Vader killed Sidious,redemption.Horus felt sorry for him,and hesitated,but the Big E took advantage and slayed him.Not rerdeemed.

Never said it redeemed him. After the Emperor's final attack Horus came to his senses and felt remorse, but the Emperor knew he would turn again.

Horus redeemed himself in the end. where the helk have you been reading?
He had a moment of kill me now.
The Emperor obliged and killed him.

He didn't. The Emperor killed him because he would have betrayed him again. He couldn't let him live, so he had to destroy Horus.

As ever with 40k, Its all up to the observer's standpoint.

Im wondering where the detailed account of the battle between the emperor and horus is found. The details such as the Emperor's arm being ripped off and him having his back broken and eye put out are some what new to me. I do agree with void that logic clearly dictates that the emperor could not find a way to disable horus as an actual threat without hurting horus. The limits of the Emperor's power in relation to horus begin to materialize there.