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Hmmm...Soul Drinkers codex.

Buckets of fun.

Put me down for the 'we have far too many space marine codexes already' camp.

Space Marines, Black Templars, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels. And Grey Knights and Chaos Space marines have become way too similar to 'normal' type marines.

Frankly I agree that Dark Angels do not require their own codex, all that is needed is a master of the ravenwing, master of the deathwing and maybe Chapter master character, in the normal codex. These HQ choices could alter the force organisation chart and have some mutable equipment options. Add in a few pages of background about the layout, aims, objectives, characteristics of the chapter and you're done. It'll never happen though.

Jeesh, Grey Knights should not be a fully fledged army. SW and BA I will give a pass to because they've been around forever (BA could have been done as a few options to regular marine armies at one point) BT probably should never have had an independent release, but they're just so cool.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Put me down for the 'we have far too many space marine codexes already' camp.

Space Marines, Black Templars, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels. And Grey Knights and Chaos Space marines have become way too similar to 'normal' type marines.

Frankly I agree that Dark Angels do not require their own codex, all that is needed is a master of the ravenwing, master of the deathwing and maybe Chapter master character, in the normal codex. These HQ choices could alter the force organisation chart and have some mutable equipment options. Add in a few pages of background about the layout, aims, objectives, characteristics of the chapter and you're done. It'll never happen though.

Jeesh, Grey Knights should not be a fully fledged army. SW and BA I will give a pass to because they've been around forever (BA could have been done as a few options to regular marine armies at one point) BT probably should never have had an independent release, but they're just so cool.

So you think that the BA codex should be scraped as well? Just make a captain with jump pack count ASM as troops, done (more or less). SW, pretty much same thing. Give them a character that trades combat tactics for FC and CA, done (more or less)...ect ect
DA is most certainly just as unique as the other marine chapters with their own codex.

Thing is, DA, BA, SW and Ultramarines have been the poster boys for the marines since RT, mainly near the end when they were the schemes being painted up and their chapter markings fleshed out in the WD's and supplements.
As it currently stands the DA codex is, imo, useless. If 5th edition and the new shiny marines were round the corner when it was written, then the new toys should have been in there such as honour weapons.
The uniqueness has been stripped from them by doing what you say the other chapters deserve more than, the special character that changes an army composition. So what to do with DA when that happens? They become just regular MEQ with no special rules that would have people buy their kits?
The roles of deathwing and ravenwing and their chapter composition make them in GW's eyes deserving of a stand alone codex.
That and the tiresome job of deleting nerd rage emails

But honestly, if anything else should be done instead of DA its bring the older armies into line, or those people are agreeing are in serious need of help like 'nids.

Brother SRM wrote:Imperial Fists? Really? The very image of a codex Marine chapter? God no. I love my Crimson Fists and I wouldn't want them or anyone else to have a new Marine codex. As the owner of entirely too many Marine armies, we don't need any more loyalist Marine books. Now a Chaos Legions one, that I'm all for. Aside from them and something like LatD/Genestealer cults/Adeptus Arbites I don't want any new armies in the game. GW takes long enough to update existing ones.

What about a joint Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists Codex? GW already sells things that can apply to both.

forruner_mercy wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:Imperial Fists? Really? The very image of a codex Marine chapter? God no. I love my Crimson Fists and I wouldn't want them or anyone else to have a new Marine codex. As the owner of entirely too many Marine armies, we don't need any more loyalist Marine books. Now a Chaos Legions one, that I'm all for. Aside from them and something like LatD/Genestealer cults/Adeptus Arbites I don't want any new armies in the game. GW takes long enough to update existing ones.

What about a joint Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists Codex? GW already sells things that can apply to both.

They REALLY don't need their own codex at all. Both of them are 100% codex adherant.

It confuses me why GW didn't stick with the style of the 2nd edition Codex: Angels of Death. Put 2 distinct chapters into a single book and it increases the scope for sales (don't like red marines? buy the green ones!) and frees up more space in the release schedule for non-imperial codexes. How many of you own more than one marine chapter? Personally I ignored Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Grey Knights releases because I already have DA.

The only reason for me to start in a new army in the last 12-18 months was because a friend gave me 1000pts of his old Eldar to build on. The last 'new' codex I bought was 'nids. None of the recent releases have grabbed my attention due to lack of variety.

Does this alternative codex list appeal to anyone else?:

1. Space Marines (Codex Chapters)
2. Blood Angels / Dark Angels
3. Space Wolves / Salamanders
4. Grey Knights / Deathwatch
5. Black Templars / White Scars

That gives a little more variety to marine releases, introduces more scope for people to update their old armies and compresses things down a little so we can enjoy more xenos releases.

We don't need more variety to Marines, we need more variety to everything else. Chaos Marines seem to follow exactly the same tactics for every legion judging by the current codex, wheras I've always felt there should be
1) Chaos Legions (Black Legion, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons)
2) Renegade Legions (Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Night Lords) Though the Word bearers worship the gods, they're undivided rather than changing like the Black Legion.
3) Alpha Legion. They follow completely different tactics to any other Marines, and this has yet to be represented.

Also two Imperial Guard codices to represent the difference in mechanised and foot slogging regiments.

xttz wrote:
Does this alternative codex list appeal to anyone else?:

1. Space Marines (Codex Chapters)
2. Blood Angels / Dark Angels
3. Space Wolves / Salamanders
4. Grey Knights / Deathwatch
5. Black Templars / White Scars

That gives a little more variety to marine releases, introduces more scope for people to update their old armies and compresses things down a little so we can enjoy more xenos releases.

I think this looks good. More chapters getting attention but one less codex. I would hate them to add another space marine codex though. Or even human. I would rather the Xenos get some love.

IMO
The IG should get more books
ie:
1 Catachans
2 Steel Legion
3 Cadia

(SM have like 5 , and there are billions more guardsmen)

So instead of "Yet another boring space marine codex that you don't personally like", you want "Yet another boring space marine codex that you do personally like"?

Give me a break, I'm glad you're not running GW, otherwise we'd have 20 space marine chapters on the shelves and nothing else.

All your picks are yet another tired rehash of space marines that will add yet another codex to the list of "stuff GW will update first before even thinking about giving [insert army that they've ignored for 5-10 years here] a refresh".

I want my Eldar codex dammit, I've been waiting since early 4th edition.

Not an 8th marine codex (yes there are currently 7 space marine codexes of some variety or another), not a 9th marine codex either, and certainly not a 10th marine codex. Got that?

And for the record, I have a black templars army, so I am in no way biased... I'm glad they got some new model kits, but I have no idea why they were given a codex when a single page in codex space marines (unlimited LR crusaders, a bunch of special rules) would have done the job.

scarletsquig wrote:So instead of "Yet another boring space marine codex that you don't personally like", you want "Yet another boring space marine codex that you do personally like"?

Give me a break, I'm glad you're not running GW, otherwise we'd have 20 space marine chapters on the shelves and nothing else.

All your picks are yet another tired rehash of space marines that will add yet another codex to the list of "stuff GW will update first before even thinking about giving [insert army that they've ignored for 5-10 years here] a refresh".

I want my Eldar codex dammit, I've been waiting since early 4th edition.

Not an 8th marine codex (yes there are currently 7 space marine codexes of some variety or another), not a 9th marine codex either, and certainly not a 10th marine codex. Got that?

Providing you weren't including Chaos in that (One codex? We'll show you, with your METAL BAWXES) then, this. There's enough marines. It's time to let normal troopers, Xenos, or the bad guys have some limelight.

Cerebrium wrote:Chaos Legions, for the love of all that is holy.

I miss my basilisks :(

You miss your basilisks? Feh, I played WordBearers/Alpha Legion. I miss my EVERYTHING!

Scarlet - and by "early 4th" you mean "last 18 months of 4th", right? (November 2006)

tedurur wrote:
So you think that the BA codex should be scraped as well? Just make a captain with jump pack count ASM as troops, done (more or less). SW, pretty much same thing. Give them a character that trades combat tactics for FC and CA, done (more or less)...ect ect

Which is exactly hat should have been done a decade ago...

DA is most certainly just as unique as the other marine chapters with their own codex.

And most never needed their own codex in the first place, and the DA have, since even back in 2nd edition, been stated as being a rather Codex chapter aside from the methods of operation of their Veteran and Bike companies (1st and 2nd IIRC?) being employed en-masse routinely rather than split up to support other companies.





As to what I'd rather see, I'd rather just amalgamate the various SM books and replace them with a couple new factions. Cut the 6 SM books to 3 (Codex Chapters, Non codex chapters, Chaos Legions) with an add-on to C:Codex Chapters for post-heresy Renegades, and toss in say, AdMech and something else, perhaps Hrud or something, and as a results we get two new factions with the same number of books without needing to add time to the marketing release pipeline while still covering all the bases and no longer needing to make more and more outlandish stuff for marine chapters which are essentially non-entities in the greater 40k universe simply to justify their own books for nothing more than their own sake despite sharing the vast majority of their statlines, wargear, special rules, weapons, vehicles, etc.

Cerebrium wrote:Chaos Legions, for the love of all that is holy.

I miss my basilisks :(

the inclusion of the bassy in all honesty was probably a mistake, while they'd appear in IW armies, they'd likely be relegated to what functionally would be traitor guard and Lost and the Damned forces that are fighting as slave troops for the Iron Warriors, and thus best represented with other books and Apoc battles.

I am pretty much against another Marines book. Would I prefer that all of the founding legions have their own things to make them unique? Sure. However the options for Space Marines is already varied enough.

I like suggestions for Rogue trader, Kroot, and Catachans interest me most.

1. Rogue trader- easily done with a mish mash of what's available. So many fun possibilities with this one.

2. Kroot - I thought the Kroot Merc rules were balanced and not overpowered in any way. The options were great and you can go so many ways based on what your forces are eating.

3. Catachans - were a great unique force with a lot of character. I think it's a shame that they were lumped in the IG codex.

Wouldn't mind seeing any of these. I think before this there really needs to be an emphasis on updating the current books. Don't care what army it is, start at the oldest and just update them.

$pider wrote:I am pretty much against another Marines book. Would I prefer that all of the founding legions have their own things to make them unique? Sure. However the options for Space Marines is already varied enough.

I like suggestions for Rogue trader, Kroot, and Catachans interest me most.

1. Rogue trader- easily done with a mish mash of what's available. So many fun possibilities with this one.

2. Kroot - I thought the Kroot Merc rules were balanced and not overpowered in any way. The options were great and you can go so many ways based on what your forces are eating.

3. Catachans - were a great unique force with a lot of character. I think it's a shame that they were lumped in the IG codex.

Wouldn't mind seeing any of these. I think before this there really needs to be an emphasis on updating the current books. Don't care what army it is, start at the oldest and just update them.

I would not mind a Catachans codex, but their models, oh god their models. DOW2 Ret made them look awesome because they had proper human proportions. Heck I almost started playing them because of that game, but then I saw derped out Rambo on the GW website.

scarletsquig wrote:
I want my Eldar codex dammit, I've been waiting since early 4th edition.

Here I go, stirring up a storm of such proportions that the Gods themselves will tremble: Wait your turn. Templars are the oldest current Codex unless you include Assassins, Craftworld Eldar and similar.

Vaktathi wrote:

tedurur wrote:
As to what I'd rather see, I'd rather just amalgamate the various SM books and replace them with a couple new factions. Cut the 6 SM books to 3 (Codex Chapters, Non codex chapters, Chaos Legions) with an add-on to C:Codex Chapters for post-heresy Renegades, and toss in say, AdMech and something else, perhaps Hrud or something, and as a results we get two new factions with the same number of books without needing to add time to the marketing release pipeline while still covering all the bases and no longer needing to make more and more outlandish stuff for marine chapters which are essentially non-entities in the greater 40k universe simply to justify their own books for nothing more than their own sake despite sharing the vast majority of their statlines, wargear, special rules, weapons, vehicles, etc.

Chaos isn't meant to be played the same as Loyalist Marines! They're meant to have their own equipment and style, not to be 'Space Marines, but bad.' Splitting daemons from CSM was a terrible idea, since it left them without much of what made them unique, especially one they eliminated the gifts...

Cerebrium wrote:Chaos Legions, for the love of all that is holy.

I miss my basilisks :(

the inclusion of the bassy in all honesty was probably a mistake, while they'd appear in IW armies, they'd likely be relegated to what functionally would be traitor guard and Lost and the Damned forces that are fighting as slave troops for the Iron Warriors, and thus best represented with other books and Apoc battles.

I don't see how giving a Basalisk to one faction of CSMs is any worse than the special rules of loyalists to be honest...

I just think that there needs to be more focus on Xeno armies. Space Marines are great and all, but I'll bet Space Marine Players would like it if they occasionally faced something other than Space Marines. Right now the only Xeno faction that is remotely close to top Tier is Dark Eldar- and frankly that's ridiculous.

Tyranid's book is tough to compete against mech spam with, Eldar, Tau, and Necron haven't been updated in ages- which is why they are starting to fall off.

Hopefully when the Necron codex comes out we'll see some more Xeno armies afoot.

Seriously though, I know it will never happen but it would be awesome if GW scythed all but one Loyalist Marine Codexes. That way they can have a normal update schedule

SM, Guard, CSM, Deamons, Eldar, DE, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons, Orks and maybe Sisters.

That gives a far more manageable number of codexes to release and keep updated, which would make for more varied games at higher levels, make SM players feel like they are actually fighting the enemies of the Imperium rather than an endless civil war against other loyalist marine chapters and squabbling about "who loves the Emperor more".

This means that the update schedule won't be clogged with needing to get through a ridiculous number of special snowflake Chapters who keep getting more and more ridiculous fluff and naming conventions in order to justify them getting their own special snowflake book. Wolfy Wolfinson the wolf lord with his wolf tooth necklace and wolf claws riding on his thunder wolf. Same with the Blood Angels, everything in the codex has blood in its name- considering that they are more obsessed with blood than the World Eaters... its kind of ridiculous.

Seriously, as has been said all you need to do to make space wolf and blood angel codex is an HQ character like Salamanders, White Scars, Imperial Fists and all the others have.

Space Wolves- replace combat tactics with bolter, ccw, pistol and counter attack

Blood Angels- Assault marines can be taken as troops, option to include a squad of death company.

or are SW, BA, DA, and BT all somehow more special and deserving than the Imperial Fists, Salamanders, and White Scars are? Not to mention the entire lack of love given to Emporer's Children, World Eaters, Thousand Sons or Death Guard. Seriously, what makes those codexes so much more important than other founding chapters that they deserve their own books?

Its honestly kind of hard to have epic thousand sons v space wolf battles when the sons have 1 troop choices in a old book combining all of chaos space marines, and the space wolf codex is one of the strongest out there, its more like who wants to watch the Thousand Sons get curb stomped more than anything.

Durza wrote:
Chaos isn't meant to be played the same as Loyalist Marines! They're meant to have their own equipment and style, not to be 'Space Marines, but bad.'

Where did I say otherwise...?

Splitting daemons from CSM was a terrible idea, since it left them without much of what made them unique, especially one they eliminated the gifts...

In concept it's not a terrible idea, rather the execution. They wanted it to be Codex: Chaos Space Marines, not Codex: Chaos which to a degree is understandable, they just botched the execution so bad they might as well have just made it Codex: Marines with spiky bits and Codex: Everything we took out of Chaos Space Marines.

I don't see how giving a Basalisk to one faction of CSMs is any worse than the special rules of loyalists to be honest...

It's not, but that doesn't mean it was a good idea, most of the loyalist special butterfly things aren't either. It basically amounted to simply taking a unit from an unrelated army where it really only fits in games where a larger strategic picture comes into play.

My opinion on how GW could be awesome, assuming there will be a new edition in 2012 (no facts, just speculation.) This also assumes a few things:

1) The First Founding Chapters that diverge from Codex get their own 'dex.
2) Update armies to 5th before we revise existing 5th Ed codexes.

Start up 2-4 project teams, who alternate down this list cleaning them up for 5th edition or prepping them for 6th.

Excluded from the lists - Necrons (getting theirs by years end,) Dark Eldar (just released,) Grey Knights (solid list already,) Blood Angels and Space Wolves (solid list already,)

12. Dark Angels
11. White Scars (Bikes+REd Paint Job from Orks+Furious Charge on bikes...)
10. Raven Guard
9. Orks
8. Imperial Guard
7. Eldar
6. Chaos Space Marines (closer to their "you are marked like your Lord or are unaligned," and return to the fluff that not all of them are out to kill the Empire, but rather to liberate it from 'mystecism and tyranny' as the dude says in 300.)
5. Eldar Harlequins
4. Tyranids (Lets get back to making them super customizable)
3. Lost and the Damned (The Fallen, Renegades, etc)
2. Sisters of Battle (Plastic Sisters or just kill the line for good)
1. Tau

Suggested New Codexes
Adeptus Mechanicus (as a web-only PDF or a 2-part WD release.)
Adeptus Arbites (as a web-only PDF or a 2-part WD release.)
Adeptus Custodes (as a web-only PDF or a 1-part WD release.)
Lost and the Damned (#3 on release)

Vaktathi wrote:

Durza wrote:
Splitting daemons from CSM was a terrible idea, since it left them without much of what made them unique, especially one they eliminated the gifts...

In concept it's not a terrible idea, rather the execution. They wanted it to be Codex: Chaos Space Marines, not Codex: Chaos which to a degree is understandable, they just botched the execution so bad they might as well have just made it Codex: Marines with spiky bits and Codex: Everything we took out of Chaos Space Marines.

So freaking true. As of now we're playing codex spiky marines.

There are enough new books IMO. Having waited some 8 years for a new ogre book. Hey necron players do you want to wait another 10 years for a new book because GW is pleasuring all these space marine players? Combine some codex if you want more IMO.

GW throws out more Marine books because Marines sell. Want more xenos books? Buy more xenos.

The analogy I always use in this situation is that it's like telling McDonald's to cut back on burgers and start producing more fish sandwich varieties.

Seaward wrote:GW throws out more Marine books because Marines sell. Want more xenos books? Buy more xenos.

The analogy I always use in this situation is that it's like telling McDonald's to cut back on burgers and start producing more fish sandwich varieties.

I really think you're wrong! We're telling them to start producing more devilfish varieties

Kid_Kyoto wrote:9 - White Scars: Cooler bikes than the Raven Wing, bold color scheme, non-European background AND they would fill a niche of fast cavalry marines which the other chapters really don't do.

What's wrong with European background? Is it because of western civization is formed in there or what?

Codex: Death Korps of Krieg would be really nice to see with 3rd Reich background.

Doesn't the Krieg design follow WWI French more than WWII era Germans? Steel Legion fill that role a bit better (going as far as to have the lightning bolt symbol in their collars).

Seaward wrote:GW throws out more Marine books because Marines sell. Want more xenos books? Buy more xenos.

The analogy I always use in this situation is that it's like telling McDonald's to cut back on burgers and start producing more fish sandwich varieties.

It also doesn't help that non-SM armies will often go a 6-10 years without an update with nowhere near the model or marketing support.

Of course the line isn't going to sell as well if it's not updated or supported and is portrayed most often in marketing materials and stories simply an adversary for Space Marines.

Why buy the army that costs half again as much and won't get updated for years with an incomplete model line when you can do Space Marines instead?

Kylis wrote:

What's wrong with European background? Is it because of western civization is formed in there or what?

Codex: Death Korps of Krieg would be really nice to see with 3rd Reich background.

the DKoK background is not related in any way to the second world war, nor is their visual appearance. They are an amalgamation of WW1 french/german uniforms with a far greater inspiration from WW1 for their story than anything WW2.

Durza wrote:We don't need more variety to Marines, we need more variety to everything else. Chaos Marines seem to follow exactly the same tactics for every legion judging by the current codex, wheras I've always felt there should be
1) Chaos Legions (Black Legion, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons)
2) Renegade Legions (Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Night Lords) Though the Word bearers worship the gods, they're undivided rather than changing like the Black Legion.
3) Alpha Legion. They follow completely different tactics to any other Marines, and this has yet to be represented.

Also two Imperial Guard codices to represent the difference in mechanised and foot slogging regiments.

I'm totally for this, but it could probably be condensed to one book, Chaos Legions, with each getting a set of special rules and units, which build upon the 4th ed. codex. Maybe each cultist legion gets a point reduction for their corresponding units (ie, Death Guard get Plague Marines for cheap), along with Plague Dreads/Tanks, or something along those lines, and even better would be a special rule making their FNP ID resistant or something. And then do this with everyone else. Like, with alpha legion, give near everyone scout, deep strike, and/or infiltrate, or with Night Lords give them an extra D6 movement on everything, like Ork Stormboyz, with an reasonable drawback.

As a side note, do Chaos Marines count as Space Marines? I ask this because if so, it could be next after Necrons.